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Post by kuatorises on Mar 15, 2017 16:35:32 GMT
Civil War is the most obvious choice for this discussion, but having recently re-watched The Winter Soldier, I was reminded that movie already started to show where Cap’s beliefs are on the political spectrum.
I like Steve as a person. He’s a genuinely good human being. I like him as a superhero too. There is something appealing about his powers and skill set. He is not a strong as Thor or even Iron Man (in his suit), but will fight anyone. He is fearless and his combat skills are off the charts.
But the man is extremely naïve and narrow-minded. His entire belief system (politically speaking) is, “I’ve seen what too much power leads to.” It is literally based on a single experience – and comparing Nazi Germany anything any civilized country/government has ever done is ridiculous. The only time our own country did anything that remotely resembled that was when we rounded up Japanese people during World War II. That was 1941 for Christ’s sake, but anytime anyone does anything to secure the future safety of the country – no, the world, because the planet was actually invaded – he spouts, “But Hitler!!!” So I’m watching The Winter Soldier and I noticed that he calls for the dissolution of SHIELD, the entire fucking organization, because there are spies and terrorists within. Later on I’m laughing to myself as Gary Shandling’s character is arrested by FBI agents. I think back to earlier in the movie when Cap says SHIELD has to go and I just shake my head and laugh. Calling for the dissolution of SHIELD because it has been infiltrated would be like demanding there be no more police because certain ones are crooked or at least reckless enough to put innocent lives in danger. It would be like dismantling the FBI and the CIA, because spies have been discovered in their ranks. It’s stupid.
He wants to hold everyone in SHIELD accountable for the actions of some. He’s real keen on accountability, except when it is someone that he likes: Black Widow (she was a God damned KGB agent), the Scarlet Witch, and Bucky. Bucky was brainwashed, yeah yeah I get it in the Scarlet Witch’s actions were not intentional, but there are people who go to prison for less than what they did. Involuntary manslaughter is defined as the unlawful killing of a human being without malice aforethought, either expressed or implied. It is distinguished from voluntary manslaughter by the absence of intention. Drunk drivers, someone who accidentally kills another during an altercation, or some other negligent – but not intentional – act all fall under this. There are people who go to prison for the accidental death of an individual and he defends his peers – who have hurt more people – simply because they are is peers!!!
Another thing that always drove me nuts was how Thor marches in and literally takes Loki away from the authorities. It’s stated in the movie that he murdered like 70 or 80 people and Thor thinks he can simply take him – and he only does so because it’s his brother. If another Asgardian committed those crimes, he would not be so quick to rush to his defense .
Considering some people like to say these movies are nothing but fluff, they have sure done a good job of creating some pretty legitimate conversations. The issues explored in the movies are great for debating.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 17:22:17 GMT
He's pretty libertarian.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 19:54:43 GMT
Civil War is the most obvious choice for this discussion, but having recently re-watched The Winter Soldier, I was reminded that movie already started to show where Cap’s beliefs are on the political spectrum. I like Steve as a person. He’s a genuinely good human being. I like him as a superhero too. There is something appealing about his powers and skill set. He is not a strong as Thor or even Iron Man (in his suit), but will fight anyone. He is fearless and his combat skills are off the charts. But the man is extremely naïve and narrow-minded. His entire belief system (politically speaking) is, “I’ve seen what too much power leads to.” It is literally based on a single experience – and comparing Nazi Germany anything any civilized country/government has ever done is ridiculous. The only time our own country did anything that remotely resembled that was when we rounded up Japanese people during World War II. That was 1941 for Christ’s sake, but anytime anyone does anything to secure the future safety of the country – no, the world, because the planet was actually invaded – he spouts, “But Hitler!!!” So I’m watching The Winter Soldier and I noticed that he calls for the dissolution of SHIELD, the entire fucking organization, because there are spies and terrorists within. Later on I’m laughing to myself as Gary Shandling’s character is arrested by FBI agents. I think back to earlier in the movie when Cap says SHIELD has to go and I just shake my head and laugh. Calling for the dissolution of SHIELD because it has been infiltrated would be like demanding there be no more police because certain ones are crooked or at least reckless enough to put innocent lives in danger. It would be like dismantling the FBI and the CIA, because spies have been discovered in their ranks. It’s stupid. He wants to hold everyone in SHIELD accountable for the actions of some. He’s real keen on accountability, except when it is someone that he likes: Black Widow (she was a God damned KGB agent), the Scarlet Witch, and Bucky. Bucky was brainwashed, yeah yeah I get it in the Scarlet Witch’s actions were not intentional, but there are people who go to prison for less than what they did. Involuntary manslaughter is defined as the unlawful killing of a human being without malice aforethought, either expressed or implied. It is distinguished from voluntary manslaughter by the absence of intention. Drunk drivers, someone who accidentally kills another during an altercation, or some other negligent – but not intentional – act all fall under this. There are people who go to prison for the accidental death of an individual and he defends his peers – who have hurt more people – simply because they are is peers!!! Another thing that always drove me nuts was how Thor marches in and literally takes Loki away from the authorities. It’s stated in the movie that he murdered like 70 or 80 people and Thor thinks he can simply take him – and he only does so because it’s his brother. If another Asgardian committed those crimes, he would not be so quick to rush to his defense . Considering some people like to say these movies are nothing but fluff, they have sure done a good job of creating some pretty legitimate conversations. The issues explored in the movies are great for debating. I'll start with Loki, the simplest one to get out of the way: Loki is not a citizen of Earth, he is a criminal from another world, and he is taken back to that other world to face punishment as decided by the law of the land he has citizenship in. It is no different than returning a British criminal to Britain to stand trial there. As for Steve's supposed "not wanting accountability for people he likes": I don't recall Black Widow ever being formally arrested or there being any attempts at it, so I can't say what Steve would have done. As for Wanda, she was put under house arrest without a trial. That IS wrong. That's not about accountability, that's about being punished without having a chance to go to trial and speak your side of the story. As for Bucky: THE POLICE SHOWED UP WITH "SHOOT TO KILL" ORDERS! The only reason Steve was there was to much sure Bucky was brought in ALIVE. If he wasn't about making Bucky accountable for anything he might be guilty for, he'd have tried busting him out right away, but he didn't. He consented to their arrests until the outage, which was when every Avenger there figured out the "psychiatrist" wanted to be alone with Bucky. After that, Steve couldn't let Bucky get arrested because he needed him to guide him to Siberia to stop Zemo from awakening the five frozen Winter Soldiers.
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Post by kuatorises on Mar 15, 2017 20:07:08 GMT
Civil War is the most obvious choice for this discussion, but having recently re-watched The Winter Soldier, I was reminded that movie already started to show where Cap’s beliefs are on the political spectrum. I like Steve as a person. He’s a genuinely good human being. I like him as a superhero too. There is something appealing about his powers and skill set. He is not a strong as Thor or even Iron Man (in his suit), but will fight anyone. He is fearless and his combat skills are off the charts. But the man is extremely naïve and narrow-minded. His entire belief system (politically speaking) is, “I’ve seen what too much power leads to.” It is literally based on a single experience – and comparing Nazi Germany anything any civilized country/government has ever done is ridiculous. The only time our own country did anything that remotely resembled that was when we rounded up Japanese people during World War II. That was 1941 for Christ’s sake, but anytime anyone does anything to secure the future safety of the country – no, the world, because the planet was actually invaded – he spouts, “But Hitler!!!” So I’m watching The Winter Soldier and I noticed that he calls for the dissolution of SHIELD, the entire fucking organization, because there are spies and terrorists within. Later on I’m laughing to myself as Gary Shandling’s character is arrested by FBI agents. I think back to earlier in the movie when Cap says SHIELD has to go and I just shake my head and laugh. Calling for the dissolution of SHIELD because it has been infiltrated would be like demanding there be no more police because certain ones are crooked or at least reckless enough to put innocent lives in danger. It would be like dismantling the FBI and the CIA, because spies have been discovered in their ranks. It’s stupid. He wants to hold everyone in SHIELD accountable for the actions of some. He’s real keen on accountability, except when it is someone that he likes: Black Widow (she was a God damned KGB agent), the Scarlet Witch, and Bucky. Bucky was brainwashed, yeah yeah I get it in the Scarlet Witch’s actions were not intentional, but there are people who go to prison for less than what they did. Involuntary manslaughter is defined as the unlawful killing of a human being without malice aforethought, either expressed or implied. It is distinguished from voluntary manslaughter by the absence of intention. Drunk drivers, someone who accidentally kills another during an altercation, or some other negligent – but not intentional – act all fall under this. There are people who go to prison for the accidental death of an individual and he defends his peers – who have hurt more people – simply because they are is peers!!! Another thing that always drove me nuts was how Thor marches in and literally takes Loki away from the authorities. It’s stated in the movie that he murdered like 70 or 80 people and Thor thinks he can simply take him – and he only does so because it’s his brother. If another Asgardian committed those crimes, he would not be so quick to rush to his defense . Considering some people like to say these movies are nothing but fluff, they have sure done a good job of creating some pretty legitimate conversations. The issues explored in the movies are great for debating. I'll start with Loki, the simplest one to get out of the way: Loki is not a citizen of Earth, he is a criminal from another world, and he is taken back to that other world to face punishment as decided by the law of the land he has citizenship in. It is no different than returning a British criminal to Britain to stand trial there. As for Steve's supposed "not wanting accountability for people he likes": I don't recall Black Widow ever being formally arrested or there being any attempts at it, so I can't say what Steve would have done. As for Wanda, she was put under house arrest without a trial. That IS wrong. That's not about accountability, that's about being punished without having a chance to go to trial and speak your side of the story. As for Bucky: THE POLICE SHOWED UP WITH "SHOOT TO KILL" ORDERS! The only reason Steve was there was to much sure Bucky was brought in ALIVE. If he wasn't about making Bucky accountable for anything he might be guilty for, he'd have tried busting him out right away, but he didn't. He consented to their arrests until the outage, which was when every Avenger there figured out the "psychiatrist" wanted to be alone with Bucky. After that, Steve couldn't let Bucky get arrested because he needed him to guide him to Siberia to stop Zemo from awakening the five frozen Winter Soldiers. Loki was not returned, he was taken. Thor took him. He marched into a foreign land and took him. No country (or planet) owes anything to another in this circumstance. It's up to those who are attacked to decide if they wish to return said person to their place of origin. His/her homeland has no rights to decide the outcome, the place that was attacked does. That's kind of the point – she has never been held accountable for anything. People died because of her actions and your concern lies with her having to sit in a penthouse until they decide how they're going to handle the situation. Come on, get real. As for the rest of the conversation, I'm not going to bother. Given your avatar, we're not exactly standing on neutral ground.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 20:20:48 GMT
Alright, fair enough, but there's another factor to this situation: Earth wouldn't have been able to jail Loki. He'd have escaped, no question about it. I don't even know if Earth could have safely executed him without the scene turning into a war zone. He HAD to go back to Asgard where they had the facilities to do so. Plus, Fury let Thor take Loki.
If Wanda was to be put under house arrest, there still needed to be a trial to decide that. Tony is not an authorized judge or jury.
The thing about Bucky is that everything he did was under mind control. He needed rehabilitation, not punishment.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 15, 2017 21:30:46 GMT
I'll concentrate on the Loki point. First off, you assume that Asgardians actually care about our laws? That they actually care about our territorial restrictions and our justice system?
If a kid in the playground declared the sandbox as "theirs", do you think the parents will care to ask permission before the grab the kid from the sandbox and drag them away when it's time to go home?
Considering that the Asgardians have been protecting the 9 realms (which includes Earth) for millennia I'd say it's understandable why they're so arrogant.
Besides, Loki is a dignitary. You don't just punish/jail/execute/trial the dignitary of another country without consulting with his/her country of origin unless you want to start a war with that country.
Also, I doubt humankind has the kind of technology or system in place to handle a criminal as dangerous as Loki.
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Post by kuatorises on Mar 16, 2017 2:23:05 GMT
I'll concentrate on the Loki point. First off, you assume that Asgardians actually care about our laws? That they actually care about our territorial restrictions and our justice system? If a kid in the playground declared the sandbox as "theirs", do you think the parents will care to ask permission before the grab the kid from the sandbox and drag them away when it's time to go home? Considering that the Asgardians have been protecting the 9 realms (which includes Earth) for millennia I'd say it's understandable why they're so arrogant. Besides, Loki is a dignitary. You don't just punish/jail/execute/trial the dignitary of another country without consulting with his/her country of origin unless you want to start a war with that country. Also, I doubt humankind has the kind of technology or system in place to handle a criminal as dangerous as Loki. But your honor, my client doesn't care about your laws, so it's ok! Come on man.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 16, 2017 3:24:49 GMT
About the Widow not being punished....she bothered showing up for the hearing and everything and they let her go.
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Post by flasuss on Mar 16, 2017 4:13:31 GMT
About the Widow not being punished....she bothered showing up for the hearing and everything and they let her go. Also, no jury in the world would convict an Avengers that saved the world twice for whistleblowing the secrets of what was revealed to be a terrorist organization.
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Post by politicidal on Mar 16, 2017 6:49:22 GMT
Rewatching Winter Soldier, Piece looks like the POTUS a tad bit.
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Post by kuatorises on Mar 16, 2017 13:07:33 GMT
Alright, fair enough, but there's another factor to this situation: Earth wouldn't have been able to jail Loki. He'd have escaped, no question about it. I don't even know if Earth could have safely executed him without the scene turning into a war zone. He HAD to go back to Asgard where they had the facilities to do so. Plus, Fury let Thor take Loki.If Wanda was to be put under house arrest, there still needed to be a trial to decide that. Tony is not an authorized judge or jury. The thing about Bucky is that everything he did was under mind control. He needed rehabilitation, not punishment. Don't pretend that Thor didn't march in and literally take him from SHIELD's hands. Any one country does that to another and it would create an international incident – and rightly so. Don't excuse it just because Thor is a "good guy." He only handed Loki over to Thor after Thor kinda helped save the planet.
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Post by kuatorises on Mar 16, 2017 13:16:40 GMT
About the Widow not being punished....she bothered showing up for the hearing and everything and they let her go. Also, no jury in the world would convict an Avengers that saved the world twice for whistleblowing the secrets of what was revealed to be a terrorist organization.That is an incorrect statement. SHIELD, like any other intelligence agency or military operation at one point in its existence, has been compromised. In and of itself, SHIELD is not "a terrorist organization."
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Post by kuatorises on Mar 16, 2017 13:17:41 GMT
Rewatching Winter Soldier, Piece looks like the POTUS a tad bit. I'm not following. Looks like Trump how?
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Post by kuatorises on Mar 16, 2017 13:23:34 GMT
About the Widow not being punished....she bothered showing up for the hearing and everything and they let her go. That's the point – she showed up!!! She put herself out there and left it up to the appropriate authorities on how to handle her situation. The same cannot be said for the rest of the hero community. They do what they want and some actively resist any attempts to hold them accountable.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 16, 2017 15:41:35 GMT
I'll concentrate on the Loki point. First off, you assume that Asgardians actually care about our laws? That they actually care about our territorial restrictions and our justice system? If a kid in the playground declared the sandbox as "theirs", do you think the parents will care to ask permission before the grab the kid from the sandbox and drag them away when it's time to go home? Considering that the Asgardians have been protecting the 9 realms (which includes Earth) for millennia I'd say it's understandable why they're so arrogant. Besides, Loki is a dignitary. You don't just punish/jail/execute/trial the dignitary of another country without consulting with his/her country of origin unless you want to start a war with that country. Also, I doubt humankind has the kind of technology or system in place to handle a criminal as dangerous as Loki. But your honor, my client doesn't care about your laws, so it's ok! Come on man. Are you really that dense that you can't understand the concept of this? Ok let me make it simpler: Adults won't care about the rules of children in the playground. Children can make up their own rules all they want, and maybe adults will respect them if they're being nice, but the moment the parents telll the kids it's time to go home then no amount of made up rules by kids is going to stop the adults. You won't even be able to bring Loki in to court hearing to have your "But your honor, my client doesn't care about your laws, so it's ok!".
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Post by kuatorises on Mar 16, 2017 15:50:32 GMT
But your honor, my client doesn't care about your laws, so it's ok! Come on man. Are you really that dense that you can't understand the concept of this? Ok let me make it simpler: Adults won't care about the rules of children in the playground. Children can make up their own rules all they want, and maybe adults will respect them if they're being nice, but the moment the parents telll the kids it's time to go home then no amount of made up rules by kids is going to stop the adults.
You won't even be able to bring Loki in to court hearing to have your "But your honor, my client doesn't care about your laws, so it's ok!". You keep repeating this ridiculous comparison as if it has any merit whatsoever.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 16, 2017 16:12:54 GMT
Are you really that dense that you can't understand the concept of this? Ok let me make it simpler: Adults won't care about the rules of children in the playground. Children can make up their own rules all they want, and maybe adults will respect them if they're being nice, but the moment the parents telll the kids it's time to go home then no amount of made up rules by kids is going to stop the adults.
You won't even be able to bring Loki in to court hearing to have your "But your honor, my client doesn't care about your laws, so it's ok!". You keep repeating this ridiculous comparison as if it has any merit whatsoever. It does fit though, the Asgardians are a civilization far beyond ours. So in some sense, it makes sense they'd think "F*** you, this is OUR criminal and he's coming back to face judgement HERE."
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 16, 2017 16:19:54 GMT
Are you really that dense that you can't understand the concept of this? Ok let me make it simpler: Adults won't care about the rules of children in the playground. Children can make up their own rules all they want, and maybe adults will respect them if they're being nice, but the moment the parents telll the kids it's time to go home then no amount of made up rules by kids is going to stop the adults.
You won't even be able to bring Loki in to court hearing to have your "But your honor, my client doesn't care about your laws, so it's ok!". You keep repeating this ridiculous comparison as if it has any merit whatsoever. It doesn't make sense to you because you don't understand the comparison. The Asgardians are far above us in technology and far far older than us. Loki himself is about 1000 years old. We'd be like kids to them. Bottom line is, they are under no obligation at all to follow our rules. We can ask them to, and they can choose to respect them, but in the end it will all depend on whether they choose to obey our laws or not. Because if they don't then we don't have the muscle necessary to enforce our laws upon them. The moment they think "Screw your rules. Loki is an Asgardian and will face Asgardian justice" then you either allow them to do so or try to force our rules on them which basically means declaring open war.
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Post by kuatorises on Mar 16, 2017 16:20:33 GMT
You keep repeating this ridiculous comparison as if it has any merit whatsoever. It does fit though, the Asgardians are a civilization far beyond ours. So in some sense, it makes sense they'd think "F*** you, this is OUR criminal and he's coming back to face judgement HERE." You can't march into a foreign land, murder 70 to 80 people, and then when arrested tell the authorities you don't recognize their authority.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 16, 2017 16:39:15 GMT
It does fit though, the Asgardians are a civilization far beyond ours. So in some sense, it makes sense they'd think "F*** you, this is OUR criminal and he's coming back to face judgement HERE." You can't march into a foreign land, murder 70 to 80 people, and then when arrested tell the authorities you don't recognize their authority. Of course you can. There are only 2 things that will stop you from doing so: 1. You choose to respect their laws or 2. You don't respect their laws and they use force to make you respect it. Unfortunately in the case of the Asgardians, if they choose not to respect it we don't have the muscle or firepower necessary to enforce our laws on them. Besides, a person who murders 70 to 80 people obviously doesn't respect laws at all.
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