flasuss
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Post by flasuss on Mar 17, 2017 1:33:23 GMT
Also, it wasn't Loki that didn't recognize Earth's laws in this case, it was Thor.
And again there's the practical matter that no jail on Earth could keep him.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 2:11:48 GMT
Alright, fair enough, but there's another factor to this situation: Earth wouldn't have been able to jail Loki. He'd have escaped, no question about it. I don't even know if Earth could have safely executed him without the scene turning into a war zone. He HAD to go back to Asgard where they had the facilities to do so. Plus, Fury let Thor take Loki.If Wanda was to be put under house arrest, there still needed to be a trial to decide that. Tony is not an authorized judge or jury. The thing about Bucky is that everything he did was under mind control. He needed rehabilitation, not punishment. Don't pretend that Thor didn't march in and literally take him from SHIELD's hands. Any one country does that to another and it would create an international incident – and rightly so. Don't excuse it just because Thor is a "good guy." He only handed Loki over to Thor after Thor kinda helped save the planet. And? It's still safer for Earth if Loki is removed from it as quickly as possible. Do you really think Earth could have jailed Loki if he was serious about escaping to wreak more havoc?
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Post by kuatorises on Mar 17, 2017 13:33:01 GMT
Also, it wasn't Loki that didn't recognize Earth's laws in this case, it was Thor. And again there's the practical matter that no jail on Earth could keep him.You seem to have missed it, but that was exactly the point. The good guy was the one breaking the law. A mass murderer is in custody and Thor just takes him! Any one country does that to another and creates an international incident, if not a war. You know you would have a problem with that. That's never actually been confirmed, for starters. It's nothing more than a theory. Thor was barely able to break out of the cage they built for Loki and that was only because of his hammer. Additionally, if it's proven that the Earth cannot hold them, then the Earth gets to decide he may be taken – you know since he just murdered 70 to 80 people on his own and even more by the end of the movie.
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Post by kuatorises on Mar 17, 2017 13:34:17 GMT
Don't pretend that Thor didn't march in and literally take him from SHIELD's hands. Any one country does that to another and it would create an international incident – and rightly so. Don't excuse it just because Thor is a "good guy." He only handed Loki over to Thor after Thor kinda helped save the planet. And? It's still safer for Earth if Loki is removed from it as quickly as possible. Do you really think Earth could have jailed Loki if he was serious about escaping to wreak more havoc? And you were wrong, that's what. As for the rest of my response, see my previous post. I just responded to all the same questions.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 17, 2017 15:34:43 GMT
Also, it wasn't Loki that didn't recognize Earth's laws in this case, it was Thor. And again there's the practical matter that no jail on Earth could keep him.You seem to have missed it, but that was exactly the point. The good guy was the one breaking the law. A mass murderer is in custody and Thor just takes him! Any one country does that to another and creates an international incident, if not a war. You know you would have a problem with that. That's never actually been confirmed, for starters. It's nothing more than a theory. Thor was barely able to break out of the cage they built for Loki and that was only because of his hammer. Additionally, if it's proven that the Earth cannot hold them, then the Earth gets to decide he may be taken – you know since he just murdered 70 to 80 people on his own and even more by the end of the movie. Do you know what laws actually are? They're nothing but a bunch of agreements humans came up with, and they're agreements that we're hoping other humans will follow. And the reason why a lot of humans follow the law is because we are able to enforce it with a lot of force if necessary. Thor seems to have respected most of Earth's laws, but if he decides he doesn't want to follow our laws then we simply don't have the necessary firepower to enforce it on him. It is that simple.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 16:38:05 GMT
And? It's still safer for Earth if Loki is removed from it as quickly as possible. Do you really think Earth could have jailed Loki if he was serious about escaping to wreak more havoc? And you were wrong, that's what. As for the rest of my response, see my previous post. I just responded to all the same questions. Oh? How am I wrong? Prove Earth could have safely jailed Loki. There's no way trying to keep Loki on Earth would have worked out well at all.
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Post by kuatorises on Mar 17, 2017 16:56:28 GMT
And you were wrong, that's what. As for the rest of my response, see my previous post. I just responded to all the same questions.Oh? How am I wrong? Prove Earth could have safely jailed Loki. There's no way trying to keep Loki on Earth would have worked out well at all.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 17, 2017 17:07:12 GMT
Thor took 1 swing at the cage with his hammer and it immediately cracked. You're going to need further proof if you want to claim that Earth could have caged Loki.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 17:20:30 GMT
Loki was there by choice and could have escaped anytime he wanted, remember?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2017 15:58:10 GMT
Keeping Loki imprisoned on Earth isn't that hard to do. Even Thor would be quite doable, as long as you can keep that hammer away from him. They are both mortal and can die, so execution is also an option. Iron Man could come up with weapons, it's also part of Avengers 1 story that Shield has weapons that were specifically constructed to fight aliens, more in particular Asgardians.
Ofcourse, doing that against the wishes of Asgard would have caused a war that Earth would have lost. So, when Thor says he's taking Loki with him, it would not have been wise to go against him. It's the law of the strongest, and Thor does indeed not respect Earth law all that much, no one in Asgard does. Does anyone believe that Odin really cares much about Earth law if he wants something?
That too was what Nick Fury was talking about in the first Avengers movie, Earth needs to step up and create its own defenses. So it can enforce its own laws and not let someone else make the decisions like Thor did.
Captain America is a pretty huge hypocrite throughout the entire Civil War storyline in the comics, we all know how that ended. I doubt they'll end it quite the same in the movies, but it might be quite similar.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 18, 2017 17:01:49 GMT
Keeping Loki imprisoned on Earth isn't that hard to do. Even Thor would be quite doable, as long as you can keep that hammer away from him. They are both mortal and can die, so execution is also an option. Iron Man could come up with weapons, it's also part of Avengers 1 story that Shield has weapons that were specifically constructed to fight aliens, more in particular Asgardians. Ofcourse, doing that against the wishes of Asgard would have caused a war that Earth would have lost. So, when Thor says he's taking Loki with him, it would not have been wise to go against him. It's the law of the strongest, and Thor does indeed not respect Earth law all that much, no one in Asgard does. Does anyone believe that Odin really cares much about Earth law if he wants something? That too was what Nick Fury was talking about in the first Avengers movie, Earth needs to step up and create its own defenses. So it can enforce its own laws and not let someone else make the decisions like Thor did. Captain America is a pretty huge hypocrite throughout the entire Civil War storyline in the comics, we all know how that ended. I doubt they'll end it quite the same in the movies, but it might be quite similar. Loki got shot point blank by a gun that was specifically built to fight Asgardians. It didn't even leave a scratch on him. If that's the best that SHIELD was able to accomplish after months (maybe a year?) of research since the Destroyer came to Earth and it was relatively ineffective against Loki, how much time do you think they'll need to develop a cage to hold Loki in? A year? Two? And while they do their research and build this cage, where will they keep Loki in the meantime? Make no mistake, if Thor hadn't helped out the Avengers I don't really think humankind would have been able to stop Loki and his chitauri. Not even with the Hulk. And if Thor decides to leave Earth then it will be extremely dangerous for humans to try and restrain Loki. You mentioned execution. How? Nothing human-built has yet to cause serious injury to an Asgardian. With enough time they can probably find a way to do it, but then you still need to bring Loki to a trial, get him a lawyer, go through the whole justice system which takes a whole lot of TIME. And during all that time, you'll be moving Loki around and it will be extremely likely that he'll just break away and start killing people.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2017 17:17:33 GMT
Keeping Loki imprisoned on Earth isn't that hard to do. Even Thor would be quite doable, as long as you can keep that hammer away from him. They are both mortal and can die, so execution is also an option. Iron Man could come up with weapons, it's also part of Avengers 1 story that Shield has weapons that were specifically constructed to fight aliens, more in particular Asgardians. Ofcourse, doing that against the wishes of Asgard would have caused a war that Earth would have lost. So, when Thor says he's taking Loki with him, it would not have been wise to go against him. It's the law of the strongest, and Thor does indeed not respect Earth law all that much, no one in Asgard does. Does anyone believe that Odin really cares much about Earth law if he wants something? That too was what Nick Fury was talking about in the first Avengers movie, Earth needs to step up and create its own defenses. So it can enforce its own laws and not let someone else make the decisions like Thor did. Captain America is a pretty huge hypocrite throughout the entire Civil War storyline in the comics, we all know how that ended. I doubt they'll end it quite the same in the movies, but it might be quite similar. Loki got shot point blank by a gun that was specifically built to fight Asgardians. It didn't even leave a scratch on him. If that's the best that SHIELD was able to accomplish after months (maybe a year?) of research since the Destroyer came to Earth and it was relatively ineffective against Loki, how much time do you think they'll need to develop a cage to hold Loki in? A year? Two? And while they do their research and build this cage, where will they keep Loki in the meantime? Make no mistake, if Thor hadn't helped out the Avengers I don't really think humankind would have been able to stop Loki and his chitauri. Not even with the Hulk. And if Thor decides to leave Earth then it will be extremely dangerous for humans to try and restrain Loki. You mentioned execution. How? Nothing human-built has yet to cause serious injury to an Asgardian. With enough time they can probably find a way to do it, but then you still need to bring Loki to a trial, get him a lawyer, go through the whole justice system which takes a whole lot of TIME. And during all that time, you'll be moving Loki around and it will be extremely likely that he'll just break away and start killing people. Well, the nuke was redirected, so we have no idea just what the effect of that would have been on an Asgardian
Still, there are different weapons, especially of the human variety. The Hulk did a pretty number on Loki, with little effort. What could someone like Dr Strange do to Loki? Banish him to a different dimension for instance. Dozens of humans would have very little problems with an Asgardian, especially the mutant variety of humans. The Phoenix, Xavier, Legion, Apocalypse, ...
But let's stick to the movie. Sure, Loki planned to get captured and to create confusion and havoc on the Shield Carrier, but he wasn't going to get out of that prison if Thor hadn't been so stupid and forget just what his brother is capable of. I'm not sure just what the physical similarities are between Asgardians and humans, so it's unclear what poisons and other medicines will do to them. Still, given that they can breathe on Earth without any problems, it's fairly acceptable to state that gasses and the likes will affect them. How long can an Asgardian go without air? Or how will they react to sedatives?
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 18, 2017 17:33:32 GMT
Loki got shot point blank by a gun that was specifically built to fight Asgardians. It didn't even leave a scratch on him. If that's the best that SHIELD was able to accomplish after months (maybe a year?) of research since the Destroyer came to Earth and it was relatively ineffective against Loki, how much time do you think they'll need to develop a cage to hold Loki in? A year? Two? And while they do their research and build this cage, where will they keep Loki in the meantime? Make no mistake, if Thor hadn't helped out the Avengers I don't really think humankind would have been able to stop Loki and his chitauri. Not even with the Hulk. And if Thor decides to leave Earth then it will be extremely dangerous for humans to try and restrain Loki. You mentioned execution. How? Nothing human-built has yet to cause serious injury to an Asgardian. With enough time they can probably find a way to do it, but then you still need to bring Loki to a trial, get him a lawyer, go through the whole justice system which takes a whole lot of TIME. And during all that time, you'll be moving Loki around and it will be extremely likely that he'll just break away and start killing people. Well, the nuke was redirected, so we have no idea just what the effect of that would have been on an Asgardian
Still, there are different weapons, especially of the human variety. The Hulk did a pretty number on Loki, with little effort. What could someone like Dr Strange do to Loki? Banish him to a different dimension for instance. Dozens of humans would have very little problems with an Asgardian, especially the mutant variety of humans. The Phoenix, Xavier, Legion, Apocalypse, ...
But let's stick to the movie. Sure, Loki planned to get captured and to create confusion and havoc on the Shield Carrier, but he wasn't going to get out of that prison if Thor hadn't been so stupid and forget just what his brother is capable of. I'm not sure just what the physical similarities are between Asgardians and humans, so it's unclear what poisons and other medicines will do to them. Still, given that they can breathe on Earth without any problems, it's fairly acceptable to state that gasses and the likes will affect them. How long can an Asgardian go without air? Or how will they react to sedatives?
There are no mutants on MCU Earth. So Phoenix, Xavier, Legion are not part of this equation. Dr. Strange wasn't even around during the events of the Avengers. Unless you're saying they should just have put him in a human prison till Dr. Strange came around? Using a nuke to kill an Asgardian would end up destroying a whole city. Not exactly a smart plan, even if you do it in an abandoned island or something, you'd still need to go through a plethora of paper work just to get that done. And in the meantime while you go through the red tape, where will they keep Loki? Loki would have gotten outside that cage even without Thor because his team came to free him. And no other anti-Asgardian weapon was shown in the movie, so you can't assume there was anything more powerful. Bottom line is, SHIELD spent all that time to develop anti-Asgardian weaponry and when they finally had to use it, it wasn't able to do its job. As for breathing in poisons and gas, Loki survived being dropped through space. So we can assume he can hold his breath for quite a while. Besides even if they can gas him you're still neglecting to address the main point: Where do they keep him while they decide what to do with him?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2017 17:47:48 GMT
Well, the nuke was redirected, so we have no idea just what the effect of that would have been on an Asgardian
Still, there are different weapons, especially of the human variety. The Hulk did a pretty number on Loki, with little effort. What could someone like Dr Strange do to Loki? Banish him to a different dimension for instance. Dozens of humans would have very little problems with an Asgardian, especially the mutant variety of humans. The Phoenix, Xavier, Legion, Apocalypse, ...
But let's stick to the movie. Sure, Loki planned to get captured and to create confusion and havoc on the Shield Carrier, but he wasn't going to get out of that prison if Thor hadn't been so stupid and forget just what his brother is capable of. I'm not sure just what the physical similarities are between Asgardians and humans, so it's unclear what poisons and other medicines will do to them. Still, given that they can breathe on Earth without any problems, it's fairly acceptable to state that gasses and the likes will affect them. How long can an Asgardian go without air? Or how will they react to sedatives?
There are no mutants on MCU Earth. So Phoenix, Xavier, Legion are not part of this equation. Dr. Strange wasn't even around during the events of the Avengers. Unless you're saying they should just have put him in a human prison till Dr. Strange came around? Using a nuke to kill an Asgardian would end up destroying a whole city. Not exactly a smart plan, even if you do it in an abandoned island or something, you'd still need to go through a plethora of paper work just to get that done. And in the meantime while you go through the red tape, where will they keep Loki? Loki would have gotten outside that cage even without Thor because his team came to free him. And no other anti-Asgardian weapon was shown in the movie, so you can't assume there was anything more powerful. Bottom line is, SHIELD spent all that time to develop anti-Asgardian weaponry and when they finally had to use it, it wasn't able to do its job. As for breathing in poisons and gas, Loki survived being dropped through space. So we can assume he can hold his breath for quite a while. Besides even if they can gas him you're still neglecting to address the main point: Where do they keep him while they decide what to do with him?
Was it ever stated that there are no mutants in the MCU Earth? I'm not sure about that, although we haven't seen any apart from mutated superheroes like Spiderman, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch and the Hulk.
Ok, in the strictest confounds of the first Avengers movie, there was no way to hold Thor and most likely Loki, and like I stated earlier, as they were too powerful, nobody seemed to dare tell Thor that he couldn't take Loki with him. You need power to enforce a law, if you don't have it, then it's pretty irrelevant.
Not so sure if this is still the case in later movies though. Iron Man had constructed a suit specifically to deal with the Hulk, it's not inconceivable that he could do the same for an Asgardian, especially someone like Loki.
If Loki is vulnerable to medication or gas, containing him would be pretty simple though. Just keep him sedated.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 18, 2017 20:08:28 GMT
There are no mutants on MCU Earth. So Phoenix, Xavier, Legion are not part of this equation. Dr. Strange wasn't even around during the events of the Avengers. Unless you're saying they should just have put him in a human prison till Dr. Strange came around? Using a nuke to kill an Asgardian would end up destroying a whole city. Not exactly a smart plan, even if you do it in an abandoned island or something, you'd still need to go through a plethora of paper work just to get that done. And in the meantime while you go through the red tape, where will they keep Loki? Loki would have gotten outside that cage even without Thor because his team came to free him. And no other anti-Asgardian weapon was shown in the movie, so you can't assume there was anything more powerful. Bottom line is, SHIELD spent all that time to develop anti-Asgardian weaponry and when they finally had to use it, it wasn't able to do its job. As for breathing in poisons and gas, Loki survived being dropped through space. So we can assume he can hold his breath for quite a while. Besides even if they can gas him you're still neglecting to address the main point: Where do they keep him while they decide what to do with him?
Was it ever stated that there are no mutants in the MCU Earth? I'm not sure about that, although we haven't seen any apart from mutated superheroes like Spiderman, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch and the Hulk.
Ok, in the strictest confounds of the first Avengers movie, there was no way to hold Thor and most likely Loki, and like I stated earlier, as they were too powerful, nobody seemed to dare tell Thor that he couldn't take Loki with him. You need power to enforce a law, if you don't have it, then it's pretty irrelevant.
Not so sure if this is still the case in later movies though. Iron Man had constructed a suit specifically to deal with the Hulk, it's not inconceivable that he could do the same for an Asgardian, especially someone like Loki.
If Loki is vulnerable to medication or gas, containing him would be pretty simple though. Just keep him sedated.
Well I'm debating this from the time point of the first Avengers movie, because that's the only time that Loki has committed crimes on Earth and is the only time that humans would have had the chance to detain him. And basing from the events of that movie, humankind just did not have the technology or strength of arms to detain him. You could argue that given time, humans would have developed means to contain him, but until they do how exactly would they make sure he was secure? Even Stark's technology was ineffective against Thor.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2017 20:36:05 GMT
Was it ever stated that there are no mutants in the MCU Earth? I'm not sure about that, although we haven't seen any apart from mutated superheroes like Spiderman, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch and the Hulk.
Ok, in the strictest confounds of the first Avengers movie, there was no way to hold Thor and most likely Loki, and like I stated earlier, as they were too powerful, nobody seemed to dare tell Thor that he couldn't take Loki with him. You need power to enforce a law, if you don't have it, then it's pretty irrelevant.
Not so sure if this is still the case in later movies though. Iron Man had constructed a suit specifically to deal with the Hulk, it's not inconceivable that he could do the same for an Asgardian, especially someone like Loki.
If Loki is vulnerable to medication or gas, containing him would be pretty simple though. Just keep him sedated.
Well I'm debating this from the time point of the first Avengers movie, because that's the only time that Loki has committed crimes on Earth and is the only time that humans would have had the chance to detain him. And basing from the events of that movie, humankind just did not have the technology or strength of arms to detain him. You could argue that given time, humans would have developed means to contain him, but until they do how exactly would they make sure he was secure? Even Stark's technology was ineffective against Thor.
I'll agree to that, definitely. Shield tried to prepare but Fury gathered the Avengers because he knew they weren't really ready. I supppose even then they were just lucky that Thor showed up actually.
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