The Lost One
Junior Member
@lostkiera
Posts: 2,677
Likes: 1,303
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Post by The Lost One on Jun 6, 2018 18:37:11 GMT
Sorry but no, Germans at the time were overwhelmingly Catholic. Nitpicking here but there were more Protestants than Catholics, even after the annexation of Austria and Czechoslovakia.
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Lugh
Sophomore
@dcu
Posts: 848
Likes: 77
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Post by Lugh on Jun 6, 2018 18:51:03 GMT
There is good evidence to believe that Hitler and many of the other leading Nazi figures were actually anti-Christian. I suspect you already know that and are just being disingenuous as it doesn’t fit your narrative. The NTS is one of the most ridiculous so-called logical fallacies there is btw. Put it this way, a Christian can look at the holocaust and confidently say that the actions of Nazis flies completely at odds with the teachings of Christianity. Can an atheist say the same about Stalin’s murderous regime contradicting atheism? No, didn’t think so. Hitler? Debatable. The rest of the Nazis? Sorry but no, Germans at the time were overwhelmingly Catholic. As already noted, they were backed by the Catholic Church.
Hitler's secret plan to eradicate the catholic church and his venomous condemnation of Christianity are well recorded by his colleagues Goebbels, Bormann and Speer.
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Post by goz on Jun 6, 2018 22:38:19 GMT
That doesn't debunk anything I said. The second article even brings up the Galileo incident I mentioned. Kinda shooting yourself in the foot with that one. Cody usually shoots himself in the foot, before he plants it firmly in his mouth!
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Post by goz on Jun 6, 2018 22:45:04 GMT
I don't think it was Stalin's pursuit of atheism that led to the deaths. Stalin's brutality was spurred by trying to protect the Soviet Union (and his power base within it) from the hostile forces within it and surrounding it. These forces themselves arose as a consequence of his Socialism in One Country policy. He actually tolerated and even endorsed religious institutions where doing so supported his goals (he was fairly soft on the Orthodox Church in the 30s and even encouraged its revival in the 40s). If Stalin choose to become a priest instead of going into politics and disbelieving in God. It’s highly unlikely that he would have become a brutal bloodthirsty dictator responsible for the deaths of over 25million people. We both know that, so why do you keep trying to dance around this rather significant point? You are so stupidly ignorant and simplistic. See lostkeira's post. To attribute the course of history to one fact such as the religion or lack of it of one leader is unbelievably stupid, even for you.
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Post by Cody™ on Jun 8, 2018 10:00:08 GMT
lowtacks86Irrelevant. It is highly unlikely that the Nazis were in any way sincere Christians. But let’s suppose for arguments sake that they were. It was you who compared the so-called Nazi “christians” and the holocaust to atheist Stalin and his genocidal regime. The fact of the matter is this, Christianity does have a defined dogma, which means we can examine the text and see if what the Nazis did can be reasonably reconciled with the text. It should become obvious pretty quickly that actions of the Nazis completely violates NT teachings. The same cannot be said of Stalin’s brutality and atheism. Atheism as you correctly stated is not a defined dogma, therefore anything goes. You could be a child molestor, mass murderer or a thief and it would not undermine your atheist beliefs. So to sum up, the Nazis can claim to be Christian all they like but their actions demonstrably contradict Christian teachings. Stalin can be a pacifist or the tyrannical murderous dictator that he was and it wouldn’t make a blind bit of difference to his atheism.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jun 8, 2018 13:22:03 GMT
lowtacks86 Irrelevant. It is highly unlikely that the Nazis were in any way sincere Christians. But let’s suppose for arguments sake that they were. It was you who compared the so-called Nazi “christians” and the holocaust to atheist Stalin and his genocidal regime. The fact of the matter is this, Christianity does have a defined dogma, which means we can examine the text and see if what the Nazis did can be reasonably reconciled with the text. It should become obvious pretty quickly that actions of the Nazis completely violates NT teachings. The same cannot be said of Stalin’s brutality and atheism. Atheism as you correctly stated is not a defined dogma, therefore anything goes. You could be a child molestor, mass murderer or a thief and it would not undermine your atheist beliefs. So to sum up, the Nazis can claim to be Christian all they like but their actions demonstrably contradict Christian teachings. Stalin can be a pacifist or the tyrannical murderous dictator that he was and it wouldn’t make a blind bit of difference to his atheism. Now all Cody has to do is show us what the 'teachings' of atheism are. But by way of comparison: does his hero Trump demonstrate the teachings of Christ when we consider his attitude to women, minorities, modesty and honesty, say?
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Post by general313 on Jun 8, 2018 15:18:28 GMT
Sorry but no, Germans at the time were overwhelmingly Catholic. Nitpicking here but there were more Protestants than Catholics, even after the annexation of Austria and Czechoslovakia. More nitpicking, but in Bavaria (which played a special role in the history of Nazism) there was (and is) a Catholic majority.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jun 8, 2018 18:48:03 GMT
lowtacks86 Irrelevant. It is highly unlikely that the Nazis were in any way sincere Christians. But let’s suppose for arguments sake that they were. It was you who compared the so-called Nazi “christians” and the holocaust to atheist Stalin and his genocidal regime. The fact of the matter is this, Christianity does have a defined dogma, which means we can examine the text and see if what the Nazis did can be reasonably reconciled with the text. It should become obvious pretty quickly that actions of the Nazis completely violates NT teachings. The same cannot be said of Stalin’s brutality and atheism. Atheism as you correctly stated is not a defined dogma, therefore anything goes. You could be a child molestor, mass murderer or a thief and it would not undermine your atheist beliefs. So to sum up, the Nazis can claim to be Christian all they like but their actions demonstrably contradict Christian teachings. Stalin can be a pacifist or the tyrannical murderous dictator that he was and it wouldn’t make a blind bit of difference to his atheism. "The fact of the matter is this, Christianity does have a defined dogma, which means we can examine the text and see if what the Nazis did can be reasonably reconciled with the text. It should become obvious pretty quickly that actions of the Nazis completely violates NT teachings."
If what you were saying was true, there wouldn't be so many chruches/sects and debate on how to interpret scriptures within Christianity. The fact is the Bible is just too vague, nebulous, and often contradictory to be clearly interpreted. You can scream "false Christians" till the cows come home, again that's just another No True Scottsman. By your reasoning, a moderate Muslim could just cherrypick some Koran verses, disregard the rest and write off ISIS members as being "false Muslims" (you clearly don't agree with that).
"Atheism as you correctly stated is not a defined dogma, therefore anything goes. You could be a child molestor, mass murderer or a thief and it would not undermine your atheist beliefs."
There is no "atheist beliefs", because atheism isn't a belief anymore than not believing in leperchauns is a "belief". You even pretty much admit to this by agreeing that it's not a "defined dogma". You seem to just contradict yourself when it best fits your narrative. Your right that atheism can't "condemn" mudered/child molestors, because atheism is not a belief. That's why there's other ways for nonbelievers/nonreligious to define their morality, particularly "do onto others" (one of the few things your religion got right).
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Post by Cody™ on Jun 9, 2018 15:06:48 GMT
lowtacks86 The difference is I can provide literally dozens of scripture both from the Quran and Hadith which unambiguously support every atrocity ISIS and western jihadists have committed. If you want the sources let me know. I challenge you to show me one reasonable passage from the NT(you know the covenant that applies to Christians) that can back up the Nazis putting six million Jews in gas chambers What is atheism then?
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jun 9, 2018 15:20:30 GMT
lowtacks86 The difference is I can provide literally dozens of scripture both from the Quran and Hadith which unambiguously support every atrocity ISIS and western jihadists have committed. If you want the sources let me know. I challenge you to show me one reasonable passage from the NT(you know the covenant that applies to Christians) that can back up the Nazis putting six million Jews in gas chambers What is atheism then? "The difference is I can provide literally dozens of scripture both from the Quran and Hadith which unambiguously support every atrocity ISIS and western jihadists have committed. If you want the sources let me know."
I don't dispute that. You're missing the goddamn point.
"If you want the sources let me know. I challenge you to show me one reasonable passage from the NT(you know the covenant that applies to Christians) that can back up the Nazis putting six million Jews in gas chambers"
I like how you had to qualify it to the New Testament, I guess even you can't deny the horrific "morality" of the Old Testament.
"What is atheism then?"
It's a lack of a belief. This has already been explained to you. Again, I'm gonna ask you do you believe not believing in leprechauns is a "belief"?
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Post by Cody™ on Jun 9, 2018 15:46:27 GMT
lowtacks86 So you can’t provide any verse? Gotcha. The reason i quality it is because the New Testament is what applies to Christians. This is a simple fact. Btw there is nothing in the OT neither that instructs Christians to put Jews in ovens In what?
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jun 9, 2018 16:03:33 GMT
lowtacks86 So you can’t provide any verse? Gotcha. The reason i quality it is because the New Testament is what applies to Christians. This is a simple fact. Btw there is nothing in the OT neither that instructs Christians to put Jews in ovens In what? "The reason i quality it is because the New Testament is what applies to Christians. This is a simple fact."
And yet many still use the OT tow whine about gays. Isn't it weird how that works? Besides your own Messiah even said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
"Btw there is nothing in the OT neither that instructs Christians to put Jews in ovens"
There is plenty of genocide and mass killing (Noah's Flood and killing Egyptian first borns, the mass killings of Moses) that one could try to use to justify the Holocaust. Besides that I remember you in a previous post praising Christian conquerors and playing down the pacifism of Jesus, so even you clearly don't have an issue with Christian inspired violence/war, at least to a degree.
"In what?"
In God, what else? Stop playing these silly little word games.
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Post by Cody™ on Jun 9, 2018 17:23:43 GMT
lowtacks86 No, not really. Not when the New Testament condemns homosexuality also. And as Christians we’re not called to whine about gays. We’re called to warn them that their choice of lifestyle is going to lead them to hell unless they repent. www.gotquestions.org/abolish-fulfill-law.htmlHow can Nazis possibly justify gassing 6 million innocent people based on stories of God commanding a specific group of people, in a specific location and time, for a specific reason and purpose? Cmon you’re being stupid. I believe as Christians we are called to defend ourselves aswell as the faith yes. So under that criteria a chair is an atheist then? A tiger is an atheist?
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jun 9, 2018 19:08:57 GMT
lowtacks86 No, not really. Not when the New Testament condemns homosexuality also. And as Christians we’re not called to whine about gays. We’re called to warn them that their choice of lifestyle is going to lead them to hell unless they repent. www.gotquestions.org/abolish-fulfill-law.htmlHow can Nazis possibly justify gassing 6 million innocent people based on stories of God commanding a specific group of people, in a specific location and time, for a specific reason and purpose? Cmon you’re being stupid. I believe as Christians we are called to defend ourselves aswell as the faith yes. So under that criteria a chair is an atheist then? A tiger is an atheist? "No, not really. Not when the New Testament condemns homosexuality also."
Dooesn't matter, they still cite the OT.
"https://www.gotquestions.org/abolish-fulfill-law.html"
"How can Nazis possibly justify gassing 6 million innocent people based on stories of God commanding a specific group of people, in a specific location and time, for a specific reason and purpose? Cmon you’re being stupid."
Doesn't matter, people believe God is "commanding" them all the time to do specific actions. People believe God is commanding them to vote for specific politicians/policies. You can twist the Bible to support any number of regressive ideas. The Bible doesn't actually say anything about abortion, stem cell research, who uses which bathroom, and gay marriage, but many Christians still vote against them because they feel God "commands" them to. I doubt you have any issue with that.
"I believe as Christians we are called to defend ourselves aswell as the faith yes."
Yous specifically praised Christians conquering the Roman Empire.
"So under that criteria a chair is an atheist then? A tiger is an atheist?"
If you're gonna play semantics, then sure (atheism typically implies people). I'm gonna ask you one last time (stop dodging) is not believing in leprechauns a "belief"?
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Post by Cody™ on Jun 9, 2018 19:24:53 GMT
lowtacks86They conquered it not by the sword but by the preaching of the gospel. Making it all the more remarkable considering they suffered years of persecution at the hands of the Romans.
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