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Post by Aj_June on Jun 10, 2018 10:21:06 GMT
What do you think about the term "conservative"? When you hear the word conservative what are your thoughts and how do you relate to it?
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jun 10, 2018 10:29:43 GMT
Who the hell gives a damn?
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Post by phludowin on Jun 10, 2018 10:41:54 GMT
"Conservative" comes from the latin "conservare", which means preserve. Conservatives, therefore, by definition, want to preserve something. What they want to preserve depends on the type of conservative.
Personally, when I hear "conservative" in terms of politics, I associate people who want to preserve core values. It's what's called "wertkonservativ" in German (value conservative). The problem is that many people don't agree on what core values there should be. And often, I get the impression that conservatives want to preserve political and ethical values from before 1968, or even from before 1945.
I believe that people change, and societies change, and the world changes. Whether there are core values worth preserving... Maybe there are. But since ethics are a social construct, opinions may change on what values are core values.
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Post by Aj_June on Jun 10, 2018 10:47:41 GMT
"Conservative" comes from the latin "conservare", which means preserve. Conservatives, therefore, by definition, want to preserve something. What they want to preserve depends on the type of conservative. Personally, when I hear "conservative" in terms of politics, I associate people who want to preserve core values. It's what's called "wertkonservativ" in German (value conservative). The problem is that many people don't agree on what core values there should be. And often, I get the impression that conservatives want to preserve political and ethical values from before 1968, or even from before 1945. I believe that people change, and societies change, and the world changes. Whether there are core values worth preserving... Maybe there are. But since ethics are a social construct, opinions may change on what values are core values. Thanks for the post PHE_De. One more question. Overall, do you think that the term conservative carries a negative connotation?
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Post by Terrapin Station on Jun 10, 2018 10:49:27 GMT
Depends on the context obviously, but in general, I either think Republican or someone who tends to be a traditionalist for its own sake--basically a conformist to tradition (in a negative sense in my view--I pretty much always see conformism as negative), often with an emphasis on traditional moral stances and values. Not that those two senses are completely unrelated, by the way.
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Post by Aj_June on Jun 10, 2018 10:51:15 GMT
Who the hell gives a damn? What do you think of when you hear the term liberal? I mean what does a liberal represent to you?
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Post by Terrapin Station on Jun 10, 2018 10:59:50 GMT
Liberal again depends on context, but I either think (there are more choices this time) (a) Democrat in the contemporary sense, (b) social justice warriors/ "progressives," who aren't necessarily Democrats, and even as Democrats are a much narrower subset of them, (c) historical liberals, who were basically the same as contemporary U.S. libertarians (a la the official U.S. Libertarian Party that is), or (d) more or less freewheeling libertines, which is not the same as any of the above (and certainly not the same as (b)), including that they're not the same as U.S. libertarians, because U.S. libertarians are more on the conservative side when it comes to economics.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jun 10, 2018 11:05:08 GMT
Who the hell gives a damn? What do you think of when you hear the term liberal? I mean what does a liberal represent to you? To me it means people on a guilt trip because life has been good to them, and they have a genuine desire to share their good fortune with those who are less fortunate than them...….but not enough to reach into their own pockets and share the loot. They are people who think the world's problems can be solved with their good intentions and other people's money. And when it fails, they insist they are on the right track but just not taxing people enough. That's what liberal means to me.
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Post by Aj_June on Jun 10, 2018 11:08:00 GMT
What do you think of when you hear the term liberal? I mean what does a liberal represent to you? To me it means people on a guilt trip because life has been good to them, and they have a genuine desire to share their good fortune with those who are less fortunate than them...….but not enough to reach into their own pockets and share the loot. They are people who think the world's problems can be solved with their good intentions and other people's money. And when it fails, they insist they are on the right track but just not taxing people enough. That's what liberal means to me. OK, thanks for sharing your views. It is interesting to get diverse opinions.
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Post by Arlon10 on Jun 10, 2018 11:09:32 GMT
What phludowin said except that there have developed three different kinds lately. Social conservatives are primarily interested in preserving traditional values like the meaning of marriage and the importance of family. They do not believe same sex marriage compares to traditional marriage and think the law should reflect that. They usually oppose abortion. Fiscal conservatives are primarily interested in preserving solvency, staying out of, lately getting out of, national debt. They oppose government spending. National conservatives are primarily interested in preserving the country against its foes. They believe a strong military is most important. Trump supporters are national conservatives who might pretend to other types of conservatism but usually prove inept at it.
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Post by Terrapin Station on Jun 10, 2018 11:10:37 GMT
What I'm not really answering is what the words denote to me in specifically religious contexts, but I'd never really personally use them in that context.
In a nutshell, though, I suppose I'd tend to read "conservative" so it's pretty close to "fundamentalist"--someone who follows what they believe is a strict "literal" reading of their religious texts, and "liberal" would be someone who is much more open to different interpretations, who tends to see the religious text as literature, full of literary devices, and who focuses on interpretations amenable to current social trends.
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Post by Aj_June on Jun 10, 2018 11:18:05 GMT
Liberal again depends on context, but I either think (there are more choices this time) (a) Democrat in the contemporary sense, (b) social justice warriors/ "progressives," who aren't necessarily Democrats, and even as Democrats are a much narrower subset of them, (c) historical liberals, who were basically the same as contemporary U.S. libertarians (a la the official U.S. Libertarian Party that is), or (d) more or less freewheeling libertines, which is not the same as any of the above (and certainly not the same as (b)), including that they're not the same as U.S. libertarians, because U.S. libertarians are more on the conservative side when it comes to economics. So the word liberal carries mixed connotations? Slightly negative when you talk about SWJs but otherwise neutral or positive?
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Post by Aj_June on Jun 10, 2018 11:22:50 GMT
What phludowin said except that there have developed three different kinds lately. Social conservatives are primarily interested in preserving traditional values like the meaning of marriage and the importance of family. They do not believe same sex marriage compares to traditional marriage and think the law should reflect that. They usually oppose abortion. Fiscal conservatives are primarily interested in preserving solvency, staying out of, lately getting out of, national debt. They oppose government spending. National conservatives are primarily interested in preserving the country against its foes. They believe a strong military is most important. Trump supporters are national conservatives who might pretend to other types of conservatism but usually prove inept at it. Thanks. I think you have covered the most relevant distinctions. I totally agree with you on the explanations of Social conservatives and National conservatives that you gave though Fiscal conservatives may be a bit more complex. Debt is not that bad. Conservatives may not always be averse to taking debts. Or may be those are not the pure Fiscal conservatives?
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Post by Terrapin Station on Jun 10, 2018 11:23:19 GMT
Liberal again depends on context, but I either think (there are more choices this time) (a) Democrat in the contemporary sense, (b) social justice warriors/ "progressives," who aren't necessarily Democrats, and even as Democrats are a much narrower subset of them, (c) historical liberals, who were basically the same as contemporary U.S. libertarians (a la the official U.S. Libertarian Party that is), or (d) more or less freewheeling libertines, which is not the same as any of the above (and certainly not the same as (b)), including that they're not the same as U.S. libertarians, because U.S. libertarians are more on the conservative side when it comes to economics. So the word liberal carries mixed connotations? Slightly negative when you talk about SWJs but otherwise neutral or positive? As with "conservative" and just about every other word in every language, there are different connotations in different contexts. Whether you see anything as positive or negative is going to depend on your personal views. For example with social justice warriors and progressives, some people see that movement as positive, some see it as negative. And certainly different people see "Democrat" and "Republican" as positive or negative. It just depends on a person's views.
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Post by Arlon10 on Jun 10, 2018 11:40:19 GMT
What phludowin said except that there have developed three different kinds lately. Social conservatives are primarily interested in preserving traditional values like the meaning of marriage and the importance of family. They do not believe same sex marriage compares to traditional marriage and think the law should reflect that. They usually oppose abortion. Fiscal conservatives are primarily interested in preserving solvency, staying out of, lately getting out of, national debt. They oppose government spending. National conservatives are primarily interested in preserving the country against its foes. They believe a strong military is most important. Trump supporters are national conservatives who might pretend to other types of conservatism but usually prove inept at it. Thanks. I think you have covered the most relevant distinctions. I totally agree with you on the explanations of Social conservatives and National conservatives that you gave though Fiscal conservatives may be a bit more complex. Debt is not that bad. Conservatives may not always be averse to taking debts. Or may be those are not the pure Fiscal conservatives? Those are the main groups, there are variations. In 2016 the Republican Party was in extraordinary disarray because the three main types of conservatism could agree on a platform or candidate going in to the primaries. It is still in disarray. The Old Testament is clear that debt is not for God's people Deut 28:12. The New Testament encourages investments Matt 25:14-30, but not debt. The science of the matter is that debt is not a good thing unless the path to repayment is clear. The path to repayment of the nation's debt is not clear.
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Post by phludowin on Jun 10, 2018 12:11:50 GMT
Thanks for the post PHE_De. One more question. Overall, do you think that the term conservative carries a negative connotation? For me: A little bit. As mentioned above, I believe that people change, as do societies, and knowledge. Being "conservative" therefore has sometimes a connotation of unflexibility for me. A bit like "We've always done it this way, so let's continue doing it this way", or "It has always existed, therefore it should not be changed". But in fact, nothing done by humans has always be done a certain way. Because for most time on Earth, humans didn't exist. However, a type of conservatism that hs not been mentioned yet (not even by Arlon10 , whose distinctions are not wrong in my opinion), is: Ecological conservatism. Maybe that type of conservatism could be: Preserving the environment; trying to live in a sustainable way. But often, ecologist politics usually are at odds with politics that usually call themselves "conservative". One example: In Germany, the Green Party, since its foundation in 1980, has always been associated with leftist politics. Which Americans might call "progressive" or "liberal". But in 2011, in Baden-Württemberg, a traditionally value-conservative region, the Green Party came to power. It was mostly due to a blunder from the CDU, but the Greens stayed in power after the reelection in 2016. Today, they form a coalition with the CDU, which is a party that call itself conservative (and is usually associated with the color black). The green-black government in Baden-Württemberg seems to be doing a good job. Does this mean the Greens are now conservative? Fact is: The president in Baden-Württemberg, Kretschmann, is a Catholic, and probably "value-conservative". Yet he is in the Green Party. And he is sometimes at odds with other members of his party.
That was a bit of a tangent.
To go back to the original question: Maybe "conservative" is an incomplete label; but as a standalone label, it has a bit of a negative connotation for me.
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Post by Arlon10 on Jun 10, 2018 12:47:09 GMT
Thanks for the post PHE_De. One more question. Overall, do you think that the term conservative carries a negative connotation? For me: A little bit. As mentioned above, I believe that people change, as do societies, and knowledge. Being "conservative" therefore has sometimes a connotation of unflexibility for me. A bit like "We've always done it this way, so let's continue doing it this way", or "It has always existed, therefore it should not be changed". But in fact, nothing done by humans has always be done a certain way. Because for most time on Earth, humans didn't exist. However, a type of conservatism that hs not been mentioned yet (not even by Arlon10 , whose distinctions are not wrong in my opinion), is: Ecological conservatism. Maybe that type of conservatism could be: Preserving the environment; trying to live in a sustainable way. But often, ecologist politics usually are at odds with politics that usually call themselves "conservative". One example: In Germany, the Green Party, since its foundation in 1980, has always been associated with leftist politics. Which Americans might call "progressive" or "liberal". But in 2011, in Baden-Württemberg, a traditionally value-conservative region, the Green Party came to power. It was mostly due to a blunder from the CDU, but the Greens stayed in power after the reelection in 2016. Today, they form a coalition with the CDU, which is a party that call itself conservative (and is usually associated with the color black). The green-black government in Baden-Württemberg seems to be doing a good job. Does this mean the Greens are now conservative? Fact is: The president in Baden-Württemberg, Kretschmann, is a Catholic, and probably "value-conservative". Yet he is in the Green Party. And he is sometimes at odds with other members of his party.
That was a bit of a tangent.
To go back to the original question: Maybe "conservative" is an incomplete label; but as a standalone label, it has a bit of a negative connotation for me. The Republican Party, all of it, is currently in denial that anyone anywhere could possibly support any policy that endangers the environment. The ones who support building various pipelines for example would assure the rest that all the safety precautions will be taken and the environment will be perfectly safe. No one claims to be for the pipeline because the environment doesn't matter. There are people who are not nationalists (take a knee?), there are people who want a smaller military, there are people who are for same sex marriage, there are people who are for government spending that takes the country further and further in debt. No one is for destroying the environment, although the policies of some might not be as safe as they claim. You are right though. There are Democrats who would claim they are the conservative ones because they have more concern for the environment. The Democratic Party also has way more nationalists than many people would guess.
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Post by Aj_June on Jun 10, 2018 19:18:56 GMT
Thanks. I think you have covered the most relevant distinctions. I totally agree with you on the explanations of Social conservatives and National conservatives that you gave though Fiscal conservatives may be a bit more complex. Debt is not that bad. Conservatives may not always be averse to taking debts. Or may be those are not the pure Fiscal conservatives? Those are the main groups, there are variations. In 2016 the Republican Party was in extraordinary disarray because the three main types of conservatism could agree on a platform or candidate going in to the primaries. It is still in disarray. The Old Testament is clear that debt is not for God's people Deut 28:12. The New Testament encourages investments Matt 25:14-30, but not debt. The science of the matter is that debt is not a good thing unless the path to repayment is clear. The path to repayment of the nation's debt is not clear. Yeah, fiscal deficit financed by foreigners can have its negatives but as long as the debt is incurred to finance investments that increase productive capacity of a country the debt is not really bad. Last I saw data of foreign debt among developed countries only Germany seemed to have been in net positive.
That said I think The Herald Erjen once did predict that America will eventually go broke.
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Post by Aj_June on Jun 10, 2018 19:30:57 GMT
Thanks for the post PHE_De. One more question. Overall, do you think that the term conservative carries a negative connotation? For me: A little bit. As mentioned above, I believe that people change, as do societies, and knowledge. Being "conservative" therefore has sometimes a connotation of unflexibility for me. A bit like "We've always done it this way, so let's continue doing it this way", or "It has always existed, therefore it should not be changed". But in fact, nothing done by humans has always be done a certain way. Because for most time on Earth, humans didn't exist. However, a type of conservatism that hs not been mentioned yet (not even by Arlon10 , whose distinctions are not wrong in my opinion), is: Ecological conservatism. Maybe that type of conservatism could be: Preserving the environment; trying to live in a sustainable way. But often, ecologist politics usually are at odds with politics that usually call themselves "conservative". One example: In Germany, the Green Party, since its foundation in 1980, has always been associated with leftist politics. Which Americans might call "progressive" or "liberal". But in 2011, in Baden-Württemberg, a traditionally value-conservative region, the Green Party came to power. It was mostly due to a blunder from the CDU, but the Greens stayed in power after the reelection in 2016. Today, they form a coalition with the CDU, which is a party that call itself conservative (and is usually associated with the color black). The green-black government in Baden-Württemberg seems to be doing a good job. Does this mean the Greens are now conservative? Fact is: The president in Baden-Württemberg, Kretschmann, is a Catholic, and probably "value-conservative". Yet he is in the Green Party. And he is sometimes at odds with other members of his party.
That was a bit of a tangent.
To go back to the original question: Maybe "conservative" is an incomplete label; but as a standalone label, it has a bit of a negative connotation for me.
Great Points, Phe_De
Must say I never saw conservatism in regards to environment. It is a fact today (at least in English speaking developed countries) that conservatives have not taken lead concerning ecological problems we are either facing or are under threat of facing in future. To some extent Indian conservatives have shown more concerns about sustainable development than conservatives of developed nations.
I am really glad to get a lot of replies on this thread. This idea of this topic came to my mind because last year my supervisor at the job had told me that everything else being equal try to be conservative in making accounting estimates. It occurred to me that even though conservatism is not so much in fashion today, conservative approach is still regarded highly in accounting.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2018 19:45:20 GMT
What do you think about the term "conservative"? When you hear the word conservative what are your thoughts and how do you relate to it? Well I'm British, so I think of the Conservative party. The Conservatives are probably the party closest to myself in their policies and outlook, so I mostly think fairly positive things.
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