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Post by Arlon10 on Jun 22, 2018 8:25:25 GMT
One of the saddest things is watching a bunch of stupid godless pigs (never mind where) argue over which side really got permission from Jesus to be stupid godless pigs.
Newsflash: Government works by force. It does not generate any wealth. It does not wait for word from god to kill people. That's why the national debt is out of control, both parties totally ignore that Biblical advice about not being debtors.
"Christianity" in the hands of government is not a religion, it's just an excuse to be government.
Newsflash: Neither party upholds marriage. Traditional marriage was the promise of people about to become parents to never need government oversight of their responsibilities to their children and each other. Both parties have made marriage the implementation of government oversight. That makes "marriage" totally unnecessary since government oversight happens anyway when vows do not work, which is most of the time now after almost 50 year of no fault divorce laws.
"Pastor" David George made national news Sunday. How? Did he write a new law that will make marriage meaningful again? No. Did he write a new law that will stop the national debt from destroying the meaning of money too now that marriage means nothing? No. He killed Tim Day. Did he put the fear of any god into anyone? No. He put the fear of his gun into people. In defense of David George we should note that Tim Day was a criminal firing a gun haphazardly (?) and might have harmed people had not the pastor stopped him.
It might become necessary from time to time to depend on the convincing power of a gun, but will that convincing power restore marriage? No. Will it reduce the national debt? No. Neither Donald Trump nor Bill Clinton were experts on good marriage. Mike Pence might have had an exemplary married life, but his main focus is government force, which has been identified as the problem, not the solution.
Nowhere in the Bible does it tell the poor to walk up to whomever they pick and demand support. Nowhere does it tell the rich to shoot them if they ask. That's the government, not any religion whatsoever.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jun 22, 2018 17:13:59 GMT
One of the saddest things is watching a bunch of stupid godless pigs (never mind where) argue over which side really got permission from Jesus to be stupid godless pigs. Newsflash: Government works by force. It does not generate any wealth. It does not wait for word from god to kill people. That's why the national debt is out of control, both parties totally ignore that Biblical advice about not being debtors. "Christianity" in the hands of government is not a religion, it's just an excuse to be government. Newsflash: Neither party upholds marriage. Traditional marriage was the promise of people about to become parents to never need government oversight of their responsibilities to their children and each other. Both parties have made marriage the implementation of government oversight. That makes "marriage" totally unnecessary since government oversight happens anyway when vows do not work, which is most of the time now after almost 50 year of no fault divorce laws. "Pastor" David George made national news Sunday. How? Did he write a new law that will make marriage meaningful again? No. Did he write a new law that will stop the national debt from destroying the meaning of money too now that marriage means nothing? No. He killed Tim Day. Did he put the fear of any god into anyone? No. He put the fear of his gun into people. In defense of David George we should note that Tim Day was a criminal firing a gun haphazardly (?) and might have harmed people had not the pastor stopped him. It might become necessary from time to time to depend on the convincing power of a gun, but will that convincing power restore marriage? No. Will it reduce the national debt? No. Neither Donald Trump nor Bill Clinton were experts on good marriage. Mike Pence might have had an exemplary married life, but his main focus is government force, which has been identified as the problem, not the solution. Nowhere in the Bible does it tell the poor to walk up to whomever they pick and demand support. Nowhere does it tell the rich to shoot them if they ask. That's the government, not any religion whatsoever. "It does not generate any wealth." That's not necessaily true (government subsidies of private industries to help promote growth/wealth, laws that limit outourcing to other countries, anti-trust laws to allow other business to compete, tarrifs/quotas on foreign competition, etc)
"It does not wait for word from god to kill people."
So basically you're ok with people killing if a voice in their head told them to?
"Christianity" in the hands of government is not a religion, it's just an excuse to be government."
It's a government influenced by religion, essentially a thecracy. If you're going to play silly word games, I could just as easily say the same thing about governments that practice Sharia Law, "Well gee, that's not religion, that's just government demanding women be covered up and apostates be executed. Religion has nothing to do with it."
"Nowhere in the Bible does it tell the poor to walk up to whomever they pick and demand support"
Uh, it more or less does say just that:
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."
"When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
This is why I have more respect for Ayn Rand/atheist libertarians than "Christian" conservatives, they're not pretending their poltical idealogy falls in line with someone that was bascially a hippie pacifist.
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Post by them1ghtyhumph on Jun 22, 2018 19:48:01 GMT
Do you know how much earthquake relief money the Clintons stole from the poor people of Haiti? Well, I'll tell you. Four billion dollars. That's how much. And they're not even Republicans. Can you link that?
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Post by them1ghtyhumph on Jun 22, 2018 19:54:08 GMT
While we are ALL sinners(republican and democrat), it's pretty easy to see that overall Jesus would be more inline with conservatives than liberals and that gap is getting more and more profound lately. although obviously, I am sure He could call out both sides for doing wrong on some level as no one is sinless. but one of the easiest ways to counter your quote there would be the abortion issue which is why I can't believe you would claim that when one of the most serious issues a democrat violates is a babies right-to-life as they make it easier for a mother to kill her unborn child and that can't be a good thing. basically once you remove the sugar coating, abortion is murder in the eyes of God when you put it bluntly. it's pretty hard to top that one and like I always say once someone gets that basic life issue wrong, they tend to be backwards in many other moral areas like euthanasia/gay agenda etc which Jesus Christ strongly opposes. basically when it comes to the abortion issue, which is a major issue in the eyes of God, liberals put a persons "choice" higher than a persons right-to-life when it should be the other way around. basically they have to sugar coat a immoral thing by labeling it 'pro-choice' (so it looks better on the surface) instead of what it really is, which is a life issue. which is why us conservatives call it pro-life. so like I mentioned above, someone who fails to get this most basic serious issue right(like abortion since it's a basic life issue), it's not surprising they are backwards in many other areas and it shows. so just on paper... conservatives are more inline with God than liberals given what they support. p.s. for the record... I am not suggesting that all conservatives end up in heaven or all liberals end up in hell as only God can judge you (I would imagine some from both sides end up in heaven and hell). I am just saying that in terms of basic stuff both parties support it's pretty easy to see which is more inline with God and which is one is not. this tends to show with those who take Jesus Christ's teachings a bit more seriously are usually are conservative and those who don't buy into Christianity (or don't take it that seriously as they might have basic believe in God but that's about as far as it goes) are probably more likely to be liberal. basically you can either follow the worlds ways(which are often opposed to God), or follow Jesus Christ in general and try to do something decent here and there where you can. All of that is technically accurate as I can't say anything against that when it comes to Jesus Christ. but some people have a twisted view of 'love' at times. like some people think you have to accept everything people do like gay agenda etc, even when it clearly goes contrary to what Jesus Christ teaches. sure, we got to treat them decently etc but it does not mean we have to accept/promote immorality which many do nowadays with that 'accept this or else' mindset and it's getting worse with people trying to brainwash kids at a early age into accepting immoral things etc and it's having it's intended effect to as you can see many are buying into the worlds way of thinking instead of sticking to God's unchangeable truths. basically if someone loves someone... the ultimate goal of that person is to help the other reach heaven. so calling someone out for something immoral they are doing is actually a act of love, since your trying to correct their wrong and get them onto the right path. it's not hate like many would say lately. sure, if someone is getting violent etc towards say a gay person I would oppose those people. like those people who say 'God hates f*gs' (or the like) are wrong because God loves everyone, but He wants us to love Him back. proof of our love towards God is in actions. so we need to follow His commandments the best we can as that's proof of our love towards Him. sure, we will have our mistakes(sins) but at least trying to become more like Him gives Him something to work with. basically in a basic sense, try to cut out sin as much as one can (basically follow the ten commandments) and be charitable towards others when you can etc is the gist of it although one really needs to have a regular life or prayer as it gives one strength (as in you receive grace from God) to resist sin and do the right thing etc. p.s. hell, even on the issue of the border wall Trump wants... liberals pretty much what to open the borders and let whoever into the country (they will obviously disagree with that, because it looks bad, but their actions pretty much say otherwise). but us republicans want secure borders as we are trying to put the countries safety first. that's why we need the wall as it will stop the flood of non-citizens(along with plenty of criminals like MS-13 etc) coming into the country illegally and while many crossing the border mean no harm, there is still plenty who are bad for the country and we need to stop that first and foremost and worry about the other stuff once that is fixed etc (I know things ain't always in clear cut black-and-white but you got to start somewhere). I think this is basically a good article on immigration in general... www.tfp.org/what-does-saint-thomas-say-about-immigration/Do you have some quotes by Jesus on abortion, homosexuality or euthanasia?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 20:09:40 GMT
It should be noted that there weren't as many deadbeats in Christ's day as there are today. They didn't survive. They couldn't. You had to work to live. The Roman government wasn't gonna take care of you from cradle to grave.
So the poor people back then were "genuine poor." They physically couldn't care for themselves. They weren't entitled lefty douchebags who hated corporations despite depending on them for their lavish lifestyles.
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Post by goz on Jun 22, 2018 21:54:01 GMT
It should be noted that there weren't as many deadbeats in Christ's day as there are today. They didn't survive. They couldn't. You had to work to live. The Roman government wasn't gonna take care of you from cradle to grave. So the poor people back then were "genuine poor." They physically couldn't care for themselves. They weren't entitled lefty douchebags who hated corporations despite depending on them for their lavish lifestyles. Do you know any disabled people, homeless children mentally ill or old people?
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jun 22, 2018 22:01:29 GMT
Do you know how much earthquake relief money the Clintons stole from the poor people of Haiti? Well, I'll tell you. Four billion dollars. That's how much. And they're not even Republicans. Can you link that? I suppose so. I've linked it before. Where were you then?
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Post by them1ghtyhumph on Jun 22, 2018 22:12:20 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2018 0:00:30 GMT
It should be noted that there weren't as many deadbeats in Christ's day as there are today. They didn't survive. They couldn't. You had to work to live. The Roman government wasn't gonna take care of you from cradle to grave. So the poor people back then were "genuine poor." They physically couldn't care for themselves. They weren't entitled lefty douchebags who hated corporations despite depending on them for their lavish lifestyles. Do you know any disabled people, homeless children mentally ill or old people? Yes. None of them are deadbeats. In all likelihood, you're closer to being a deadbeat than them.
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Post by Arlon10 on Jun 23, 2018 0:03:56 GMT
One of the saddest things is watching a bunch of stupid godless pigs (never mind where) argue over which side really got permission from Jesus to be stupid godless pigs. Newsflash: Government works by force. It does not generate any wealth. It does not wait for word from god to kill people. That's why the national debt is out of control, both parties totally ignore that Biblical advice about not being debtors. "Christianity" in the hands of government is not a religion, it's just an excuse to be government. Newsflash: Neither party upholds marriage. Traditional marriage was the promise of people about to become parents to never need government oversight of their responsibilities to their children and each other. Both parties have made marriage the implementation of government oversight. That makes "marriage" totally unnecessary since government oversight happens anyway when vows do not work, which is most of the time now after almost 50 year of no fault divorce laws. "Pastor" David George made national news Sunday. How? Did he write a new law that will make marriage meaningful again? No. Did he write a new law that will stop the national debt from destroying the meaning of money too now that marriage means nothing? No. He killed Tim Day. Did he put the fear of any god into anyone? No. He put the fear of his gun into people. In defense of David George we should note that Tim Day was a criminal firing a gun haphazardly (?) and might have harmed people had not the pastor stopped him. It might become necessary from time to time to depend on the convincing power of a gun, but will that convincing power restore marriage? No. Will it reduce the national debt? No. Neither Donald Trump nor Bill Clinton were experts on good marriage. Mike Pence might have had an exemplary married life, but his main focus is government force, which has been identified as the problem, not the solution. Nowhere in the Bible does it tell the poor to walk up to whomever they pick and demand support. Nowhere does it tell the rich to shoot them if they ask. That's the government, not any religion whatsoever. "It does not generate any wealth." That's not necessaily true (government subsidies of private industries to help promote growth/wealth, laws that limit outourcing to other countries, anti-trust laws to allow other business to compete, tarrifs/quotas on foreign competition, etc)
"It does not wait for word from god to kill people."
So basically you're ok with people killing if a voice in their head told them to?
"Christianity" in the hands of government is not a religion, it's just an excuse to be government."
It's a government influenced by religion, essentially a thecracy. If you're going to play silly word games, I could just as easily say the same thing about governments that practice Sharia Law, "Well gee, that's not religion, that's just government demanding women be covered up and apostates be executed. Religion has nothing to do with it."
"Nowhere in the Bible does it tell the poor to walk up to whomever they pick and demand support"
Uh, it more or less does say just that:
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."
"When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
This is why I have more respect for Ayn Rand/atheist libertarians than "Christian" conservatives, they're not pretending their poltical idealogy falls in line with someone that was bascially a hippie pacifist.
Sometimes by protecting the people who produce things it can appear that the government has produced anything. That is indeed a contribution to production in some sense. There is a limit to what government can accomplish in that regard that people too often overlook. Nothing in the first verse you quoted allows anyone to demand anything of the rich. The second verse does not apply to all the rich, just the man, or perhaps the type of man, addressed. Your concept of what those verses mean does illustrate what an unusual "religion" Christianity is. You are obviously deluded by 1960s era military propaganda regarding "hippies." The military was on the political right during the conflicts against communism. The era ended with the overthrow of the Shah of Iran. Since then our military has been opposed by the political and religious right, which coincidentally has long hair and beards. You are the leftist in the room, whatever length your hair might be.
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Post by goz on Jun 23, 2018 0:24:34 GMT
Do you know any disabled people, homeless children mentally ill or old people? Yes. None of them are deadbeats. In all likelihood, you're closer to being a deadbeat than them. What is a deadbeat? ...and why do you think I am close to being one?
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jun 23, 2018 1:45:24 GMT
"It does not generate any wealth." That's not necessaily true (government subsidies of private industries to help promote growth/wealth, laws that limit outourcing to other countries, anti-trust laws to allow other business to compete, tarrifs/quotas on foreign competition, etc)
"It does not wait for word from god to kill people."
So basically you're ok with people killing if a voice in their head told them to?
"Christianity" in the hands of government is not a religion, it's just an excuse to be government."
It's a government influenced by religion, essentially a thecracy. If you're going to play silly word games, I could just as easily say the same thing about governments that practice Sharia Law, "Well gee, that's not religion, that's just government demanding women be covered up and apostates be executed. Religion has nothing to do with it."
"Nowhere in the Bible does it tell the poor to walk up to whomever they pick and demand support"
Uh, it more or less does say just that:
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."
"When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
This is why I have more respect for Ayn Rand/atheist libertarians than "Christian" conservatives, they're not pretending their poltical idealogy falls in line with someone that was bascially a hippie pacifist.
Sometimes by protecting the people who produce things it can appear that the government has produced anything. That is indeed a contribution to production in some sense. There is a limit to what government can accomplish in that regard that people too often overlook. Nothing in the first verse you quoted allows anyone to demand anything of the rich. The second verse does not apply to all the rich, just the man, or perhaps the type of man, addressed. Your concept of what those verses mean does illustrate what an unusual "religion" Christianity is. You are obviously deluded by 1960s era military propaganda regarding "hippies." The military was on the political right during the conflicts against communism. The era ended with the overthrow of the Shah of Iran. Since then our military has been opposed by the political and religious right, which coincidentally has long hair and beards. You are the leftist in the room, whatever length your hair might be. "That is indeed a contribution to production in some sense."
So you're basically agreeing with what I said but trying to make some wishy washy meandering of how I'm still wrong
"There is a limit to what government can accomplish in that regard that people too often overlook."
What can it not provide to businesses/industries that private investors can?
"Nothing in the first verse you quoted allows anyone to demand anything of the rich."
That's why I put the second verse in to qualify it a bit
"The second verse does not apply to all the rich, just the man, or perhaps the type of man, addressed."
Uh no, I'm reading the verse again, there's nothing that actually corraborates what you said. If taken at face value (ie not making stuff up) then yeah it's basically saying the more well off should provide to the poor. and by proxy the poor should be demanding the more well of provide for them.
"Your concept of what those verses mean does illustrate what an unusual "religion" Christianity is."
Not sure what that means, I'll just label it as gibberish.
"You are obviously deluded by 1960s era military propaganda regarding "hippies." The military was on the political right during the conflicts against communism."
They still mostly are, the last two major US were pushed by Republican Presidents (Gulf War and Iraq War). Which party is the one that calls more for bloated military budgets and oversees conflicts?
"Since then our military has been opposed by the political and religious right"
I guess it's easier to win arguments when you can just make stuff up.
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Post by Arlon10 on Jun 23, 2018 3:59:34 GMT
Sometimes by protecting the people who produce things it can appear that the government has produced anything. That is indeed a contribution to production in some sense. There is a limit to what government can accomplish in that regard that people too often overlook. Nothing in the first verse you quoted allows anyone to demand anything of the rich. The second verse does not apply to all the rich, just the man, or perhaps the type of man, addressed. Your concept of what those verses mean does illustrate what an unusual "religion" Christianity is. You are obviously deluded by 1960s era military propaganda regarding "hippies." The military was on the political right during the conflicts against communism. The era ended with the overthrow of the Shah of Iran. Since then our military has been opposed by the political and religious right, which coincidentally has long hair and beards. You are the leftist in the room, whatever length your hair might be. "That is indeed a contribution to production in some sense."
So you're basically agreeing with what I said but trying to make some wishy washy meandering of how I'm still wrong
"There is a limit to what government can accomplish in that regard that people too often overlook."
What can it not provide to businesses/industries that private investors can?
"Nothing in the first verse you quoted allows anyone to demand anything of the rich."
That's why I put the second verse in to qualify it a bit
"The second verse does not apply to all the rich, just the man, or perhaps the type of man, addressed."
Uh no, I'm reading the verse again, there's nothing that actually corraborates what you said. If taken at face value (ie not making stuff up) then yeah it's basically saying the more well off should provide to the poor. and by proxy the poor should be demanding the more well of provide for them.
"Your concept of what those verses mean does illustrate what an unusual "religion" Christianity is."
Not sure what that means, I'll just label it as gibberish.
"You are obviously deluded by 1960s era military propaganda regarding "hippies." The military was on the political right during the conflicts against communism."
They still mostly are, the last two major US were pushed by Republican Presidents (Gulf War and Iraq War). Which party is the one that calls more for bloated military budgets and oversees conflicts?
"Since then our military has been opposed by the political and religious right"
I guess it's easier to win arguments when you can just make stuff up.
I'm not saying you're "wrong." I am saying there is a limit to what the work force can produce. It will produce less than that if there is interference. The government can prevent interference and thus restore production to what it would be if the people who produce things are simply left in peace. The government cannot raise production above that. Another way production will be less than its limit is by people owning stuff they are too stupid to produce anything from it. Only then will "investment," as you put it increase production to the level it would be without such troublesome ownership. "Investors" are only solving a problem they created (somewhat like government, but not exactly). I'm sure you'll label all lot of things as just gibberish. Even when the military was fighting communism, their enemies had short hair. There are almost no people with long hair in China. The only way people in the U.S. military were perceived as being on the right was their military service, not their hair length. To associate the short hair length with the right was, as I already noted, just propaganda. When the Shah of Iran was overthrown the enemies of the U.S. military had long hair. The religious right, Judaism and Islam, usually have long hair and beards. They are not communists on the left. Then there was no way for the people with short hair to appear on the right of anything, not even being in the military. Donald Trump and his followers are idiots, but they do understand that they lost their claim to the right. Everything they have done is a botched attempt to reclaim the right. Moving the American embassy to Jerusalem was totally stupid because the secular state of Israel is not the religion Judaism. It allows homosexuality, Arab religion and government do not. Putting North Korea in the spotlight is also totally stupid. It only emphasizes how short the hair of communists always is. Even when Russia was communist and had people with long hair and beards (because so many Jews lived in Russia) the long hairs were no friends of the state, watch Fiddler on the Roof sometime. Short hair is convenient for the military in hand-to-hand combat. It is a mark of the state and of the military. It is also preferred by many women because they are genetically programmed to prefer the company of small boys to the company of men. It has nothing to do with identifying strangers. Jews and Muslims never had a problem identifying each other.
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Post by Shadow on Jun 24, 2018 20:01:22 GMT
Whether one is a believer or not, the Gospels are pretty clear.
Jesus had a lot to say about the rich and poor, and he didn't have anything good to say about the rich. For example, the parable of the rich young man (Mark 10:17-25). In Matthew 8:20, Jesus explains that being homeless and destitute is the cost of following him. He cared nothing for worldly power, which is the point of the temptation in the desert when the devil took him to a high mountain and offered him all that he saw (Matt. 4:8-10). Then there's Luke 6:20, "Blesed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God." Pretty straightforward stuff. He said what he meant. Again, he actually says not to build up your treasure on earth (Matt. 6:19-21).
Indeed, Jesus' kingdom of God is not at all the kingdom of men. Luke 16:15 makes that clear, "What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight." This split between what belongs to the world of men and what belongs to the kingdom of God is again reinforced in the famous passage about taxes (Mark 12:17).
Further, "calling someone out for something immoral they are doing is actually a act of love" is antithetical to the teaching of Jesus, as Matthew 7:1-5 makes clear.
All of this is pretty radical stuff, and it ws then as well, but perhaps the most radical statement Jesus made was that we should love our enemies. He didn't say ignore them, certainly not defeat them, but love them. His greatest commandment was to love God and love each other. He offered love as a way to perfection in Matthew 5:43-48.
Most Christians, whatever their political affiliation, don't really pay much attention to a lot of what Jesus said, skipping over the teaching on divorce, for example, and especially sinning in one's heart as being the same as sinning in the flesh. It's not an easy doctrine he preached, which is probably why most people who call themselves Christians much prefer the crucified Jesus, hanging on the cross, to the Jesus that was walking around making waves, and why they tend to ignore James, at best, but revel in the "by faith alone" pronouncement of Saul.
So would Jesus be a Republican? No. Nor a Democrat, a socialist, a libertarian or anything else connected to the sphere of worldly power. He would tell us to love one another, even our enemies, for they are only our enemies in this world, not in God's kingdom. He would tell us to help each other, even at the cost of our own comfort (like I said, his was a radical vision).
It's what he said then, and there's no reason to think he'd change it now.
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Post by Arlon10 on Jun 24, 2018 21:56:11 GMT
Then perhaps you should leave the rich to themselves as well. So I've noticed. I agree.
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Shadow
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Post by Shadow on Jun 24, 2018 22:23:14 GMT
I guess I'd suggest that your issue is with Jesus, not me, as I was only referencing him. He cited wealth as a direct impediment to entering God's kingdom, and did it more than once. Actually, that along with the temptation I mentioned brings up an interesting theological question, but perhaps that would be straying too far from what this thread is about.
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