Eλευθερί
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@eleutheri
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Post by Eλευθερί on Jul 11, 2018 13:56:36 GMT
Deuteronomy 5:13-14
Why isn't there a simple commandment that says "You shall hold no man, woman, or child as a slave"?
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Post by general313 on Jul 11, 2018 15:11:46 GMT
Good point. It contradicts the notion, put forward in another recent thread here, that morality comes from religion/god.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 11, 2018 15:16:31 GMT
And it kind of messes up what Orthodox Jews do on the Sabbath, hire non-Jews to do housework for them. Hmmm...
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 11, 2018 16:11:16 GMT
Good point. It contradicts the notion, put forward in another recent thread here, that morality comes from religion/god. Slavery was not a moral issue in the first place. The concern was treatment of which there were numerous laws. It’s ok to be outraged by that although it doesn’t change the reality of it and thus there was not any hypocrisy involved and especially during Moses time where most slaves were either voluntarily so or POW’s |
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jul 11, 2018 16:17:01 GMT
Beacuse er um,...something something Mosaic Law, um something context historical context...er, um, uh...oh look a cat in a sweater!:  |
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 11, 2018 16:48:00 GMT
Good point. It contradicts the notion, put forward in another recent thread here, that morality comes from religion/god. I have not got a very detailed understanding of Abrahamic faiths but from reading various articles in isolation I have seen that there were depictions of slavery and frequent mentions of slavery in the holy books of various faiths. But at no point did any of those religions outrightly reject slavery as an abominable thing. |
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 11, 2018 16:54:07 GMT
Beacuse er um,...something something Mosaic Law, um something context historical context...er, um, uh...oh look a cat in a sweater!: LOL, that cat is a Cornish Rex, has no hair, and REALLY needs that sweater! |
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jul 11, 2018 16:57:16 GMT
Beacuse er um,...something something Mosaic Law, um something context historical context...er, um, uh...oh look a cat in a sweater!: LOL, that cat is a Cornish Rex, has no hair, and REALLY needs that sweater! I thought that was a sphynx cat? |
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 11, 2018 17:01:52 GMT
LOL, that cat is a Cornish Rex, has no hair, and REALLY needs that sweater! I thought that was a sphynx cat? Yeah, you are right, I got my purebreds mixed up. Mostly what our rescue group deals with is part Siamese and common mixed-breed cats. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2018 17:23:23 GMT
Probably because the people who made him up supported slavery.
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Post by Cody™ on Jul 11, 2018 18:29:29 GMT
Deuteronomy 5:13-14 Why isn't there a simple commandment that says "You shall hold no man, woman, or child as a slave"? You do know the word in the original Hebrew translated as slave in that passage is ebed which can also just mean servant? Anyway, different kind of ‘slavery‘ in that time. The Law of Moses actually prohibits that kind of slavery: ““Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.”Exodus 21:16 The NT also teaches that slave trading/owning is a grave sin. “We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.”1 Timothy 1:8-11 |
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 11, 2018 19:01:16 GMT
Probably because the people who made him up supported slavery. Bingo...we have a winner! Obviously slavery was considered moral (while homosexuality was not), in the same way that rape and genocide were considered moral (while premarital sex and practicing other religions were not). They really had their fucked up priorities in order when they were writing the bible. And then the age of reason happened, and morality shifted to something a bit more...”moral”. |
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 11, 2018 19:05:04 GMT
Cody™You mean as opposed to a non-grave sin?  Considering that it also teaches that homosexuality is a “practice” rather than an orientation (which we know to be psychologically incorrect), we probably shouldn’t be considering it a reliable source of knowledge in general, much less consistency.
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Post by Cinemachinery on Jul 11, 2018 20:38:17 GMT
I always wondered, among all the shellfish and mother's milk and mixed fabrics, why there wasn't a simple "Boil your water, kids."
That would be an easy early rule from an omniscient being.
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Post by Isapop on Jul 11, 2018 21:02:18 GMT
IM Deuteronomy 5:13-14 Why isn't there a simple commandment that says "You shall hold no man, woman, or child as a slave"? The NT also teaches that slave trading/owning is a grave sin. “We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.”1 Timothy 1:8-11 You've been victimized here. The phrase "slave traders" in that passage is a modern mistranslation by those who hoped to bolster the Bible's reputation when it comes to slavery. I'll provide you more details if you want.
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Post by Cody™ on Jul 11, 2018 21:09:34 GMT
IM The NT also teaches that slave trading/owning is a grave sin. “We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.”1 Timothy 1:8-11 You've been victimized here. The phrase "slave traders" in that passage is a modern mistranslation by those who hoped to bolster the Bible's reputation when it comes to slavery. I'll provide you more details if you want.
The original Greek is andrapodistés, main definition of which means slave dealer. Short definition can mean an enslaver, one who forcibly enslaves, or a kidnapper. |
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Post by Isapop on Jul 11, 2018 21:40:12 GMT
You've been victimized here. The phrase "slave traders" in that passage is a modern mistranslation by those who hoped to bolster the Bible's reputation when it comes to slavery. I'll provide you more details if you want.
The original Greek is andrapodistés, main definition of which means slave dealer. Short definition can mean an enslaver, one who forcibly enslaves, or a kidnapper. If "slave dealer" had been in translations before the 20th century, abolitionists would have found it much easier to make their case in the specific, rather than having to rely on broader Bible exhortations about love and "doing unto others". But their Bibles said "menstealers" or "kidnappers". The Greek word in question refers to the illegal practice of stealing somebody else's slave. Here's an interesting article on the topic (authored, by the way, by someone who, like you, takes the Bible as the inerrant word of God). I'll quote some key passages:
The verse lists ανδραποδισταις “menstealers” along with other ungodly and sinful persons, and indeed this word is translated “slave traders” in the New International Version...Thayer’s Lexicon explains that the word means “one who steals the slaves of others and sells them” or “one who unjustly reduces free men to slavery.” This crime was often committed in ancient times. Penalties for it are specified in the Mosaic Law (see Exodus 21:16 and Deuteronomy 24:7), and it is frequently mentioned by Greek writers as the crime of ανδραποδον...It refers to those who engage in an illegal activity, kidnapping of slaves, and not the legal slave-trade itself. For this reason, most Bible versions translate the word “kidnappers.” www.bible-researcher.com/slavery.html
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Post by Cody™ on Jul 11, 2018 22:06:11 GMT
The original Greek is andrapodistés, main definition of which means slave dealer. Short definition can mean an enslaver, one who forcibly enslaves, or a kidnapper. If "slave dealer" had been in translations before the 20th century, abolitionists would have found it much easier to make their case in the specific, rather than having to rely on broader Bible exhortations about love and "doing unto others". But their Bibles said "menstealers" or "kidnappers". The Greek word in question refers to the illegal practice of stealing somebody else's slave. Here's an interesting article on the topic (authored, by the way, by someone who, like you, takes the Bible as the inerrant word of God). I'll quote some key passages:
The verse lists ανδραποδισταις “menstealers” along with other ungodly and sinful persons, and indeed this word is translated “slave traders” in the New International Version...Thayer’s Lexicon explains that the word means “one who steals the slaves of others and sells them” or “one who unjustly reduces free men to slavery.” This crime was often committed in ancient times. Penalties for it are specified in the Mosaic Law (see Exodus 21:16 and Deuteronomy 24:7), and it is frequently mentioned by Greek writers as the crime of ανδραποδον...It refers to those who engage in an illegal activity, kidnapping of slaves, and not the legal slave-trade itself. For this reason, most Bible versions translate the word “kidnappers.” www.bible-researcher.com/slavery.html
No idea what he’s basing that information on but even going by one of the definitions he provides the word can be acurately translated as slave trader. “one who unjustly reduces free men to slavery” All the reliable sources I’ve researched say andrapodistés simply means slave trader or enslaver. biblehub.com/greek/405.htmThe great bible commentator John Gill explains that the ruling in 1 Timothy 1:10 applies to both servants and free men. Who are kidnapped and sold as slaves. Slave trading in other words. |
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Jul 11, 2018 22:19:53 GMT
If "slave dealer" had been in translations before the 20th century, abolitionists would have found it much easier to make their case in the specific, rather than having to rely on broader Bible exhortations about love and "doing unto others". But their Bibles said "menstealers" or "kidnappers". The Greek word in question refers to the illegal practice of stealing somebody else's slave. Here's an interesting article on the topic (authored, by the way, by someone who, like you, takes the Bible as the inerrant word of God). I'll quote some key passages:
The verse lists ανδραποδισταις “menstealers” along with other ungodly and sinful persons, and indeed this word is translated “slave traders” in the New International Version...Thayer’s Lexicon explains that the word means “one who steals the slaves of others and sells them” or “one who unjustly reduces free men to slavery.” This crime was often committed in ancient times. Penalties for it are specified in the Mosaic Law (see Exodus 21:16 and Deuteronomy 24:7), and it is frequently mentioned by Greek writers as the crime of ανδραποδον...It refers to those who engage in an illegal activity, kidnapping of slaves, and not the legal slave-trade itself. For this reason, most Bible versions translate the word “kidnappers.” www.bible-researcher.com/slavery.html
No idea what he’s basing that information on but even going by one of the definitions he provides the word can be acurately translated as slave trader. “one who unjustly reduces free men to slavery” All the reliable sources I’ve researched say andrapodistés simply means slave trader or enslaver. biblehub.com/greek/405.htmI guess this must be why all the CSA slave owners kept using the Bible as a source to justify their keeping of slaves? Right? Cos the Bible is so against slavery? Oh wait - it is only the modern translations that are suddenly against it... |
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Post by Cody™ on Jul 11, 2018 22:28:42 GMT
No idea what he’s basing that information on but even going by one of the definitions he provides the word can be acurately translated as slave trader. “one who unjustly reduces free men to slavery” All the reliable sources I’ve researched say andrapodistés simply means slave trader or enslaver. biblehub.com/greek/405.htmI guess this must be why all the CSA slave owners kept using the Bible as a source to justify their keeping of slaves? Right? Cos the Bible is so against slavery? Oh wait - it is only the modern translations that are suddenly against it... Here’s some King James for you: ”And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death”Exodus 21:16Does this not sound like it’s describing the modern type of slavery to you? 👆 |
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