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Post by goz on Oct 3, 2018 21:13:06 GMT
Wow! Uber defensive and rude. 'It upsets me, so I speak up when I see a discrepancy.' I saw one in your OP and called you on it. I didn't make a discrepancy. All I did was pay tribute to the people who were murdered 17 years ago, last month. On that note, it is the 1 year anniversary of the massacre in Las Vegas. Far less people killed mind you, & oh goodness!!! The sick perpetrator happened to be a white dude. Prick committed suicide so he wouldn't have to face justice. That particular terrorist attack happened because of the US has it in their constitution that the average person on the street has the right to own a gun. At the time that was declared a right, the US was all frontier. I personally believe that right is long outdated, & most people would be far safer if guns were to become illegal (for the average American citizen). Of course, as you well know, I am not an American citizen. I am Canadian, so I probably have no right to give my say in the matter. Yes. A discrepancy which you admitted later in the thread. All this vitriol because you made an error and a discrepancy in the OP and even though you admitted it, you turned it around on me. [/span] NO.You out an out stated that the 9/11 terrorist attacks were The Most Horrifying Event Of The 21'St Century Then you started all the back tracking bullshit and ended up being really nasty to me. Very non-Christian. You should be ashamed. Further, by belittling other catastrophic international events in your inaccurate summary, you ended up not paying a meaningful tribute to anyone. Well done you. 1. Reading this thread how do you think relatives and friends of the 9/11 attack feel that you place their loved ones death above those of others further away than 'your' North American centric world view? 2. Reading this thread how do you think that the relatives and friends of those other victims ( and there were SO many more) would feel that you valued their lives and deaths as less than the victims of 9/11? 3. You claim that no victims should ever be blamed. True. However it is wise, important and imperative that we look at such events in both cases and see what could have been done and should have been done to avoid such things in the future. In the case of 9/11 is was to NOT unilaterally place Western Christian beliefs above those of Muslim Middle Eastern States, invade them of the pretext of making them more acceptably 'Western/American'/or for oil or Western Power bocks... killing their populations in the mean time as collateral damage and not respecting their religion ...and in the case of the tsunamis, earthquakes and volcanoes to have the very best warning technologies available and keep them operational with infrastructure that facilitates warnings. Without being too simplistic, I wish the America had put more money into the latter and less into the former.
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Post by maya55555 on Oct 3, 2018 21:19:52 GMT
gozzy, dear gozzy
We know that you are NOT the sharpest knife in the drawer. Clusium was referring to terrorist murder, PERIOD. She was not referring to natural disasters, which take lives. Tragic, yes, but most certainly not homicide spurred by religious hatred for the USA.
Personally I have never seen or heard of the arrest of a tsunami for the crime of murder.
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Post by goz on Oct 3, 2018 21:31:24 GMT
Americans as a whole, which is an abstract, were NOT victims. Who are these Americans? It was those that died and those that were involved in the terrible situation in NY at the time, which also included other nationalities, who were victims. Were the Thai people victims of a Tsunami, are the Indonesians a victim of a Tsunami, are the Iraqi people a victim of the US invasion? It is not all about the US and what happens to them as being on the most important scale. The people that were killed in the WTC, those on the grounds (near the Trade Centre), and even passengers on the planes (that were not among the hijackers). That's who the victims were!!! Did you know that there is an edit function on these Boards where you can change the words in your thread title to state what you REALLY meant? Could have saved a lot of time and vitriol. Arguing for a point is generally much easier when you either accept responsibility for an error, or change it and make it right. Apologies often help too...rather than ...you know...disgracefully tasteless personal insults.
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Post by clusium on Oct 3, 2018 23:43:50 GMT
As Maya already noted (& I already posted) I was referring to something known as a MASS MURDER. Most people with an ounce of intelligence would have clued into that, especially since it is the most cited terrorist attack in recent years (despite others occurring since then). Although natural disasters occur in a lot of areas in the world, INCLUDING that awful United States, I do not know of ANY nation that actually makes an annual observance to any in particular, no matter how great the death toll (at most, they may usually mention it, like say, the following year. etc., however, they generally do not declare official solemn memorials, such as the one for 9/11/01 (now known as American Patriots' Day); Remembrance Day; or even Women's Remembrance Day (Dec. 6'Th), etc.Anybody who was line on the day brains were being passed out, would have clued into what this topic thread was intended to be about!!! But not you or Toasted Cheese. I wonder why? Oh, & for the record, it is hypocrisy for someone who is an anti-christian bigot to lecture others on what is, & what is not christian or non-christian behaviour.
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Post by mystery on Oct 4, 2018 4:03:47 GMT
My fear and paranoia? I'm a woman, and I've traveled through the Middle East, solo. I do not own a gun. Non-Americans love to make stereotypes about American culture based on what they see in movies or in the media. The reality can be quite different. People are just people, no matter where they're from. We're all individuals, and making broad stereotypes about any group of people is wrong. JMO. I'm not so sure what you mean by this. What does being a woman have to do with not feeling fear or paranoia?
This is what you stated earlier: You have made a sweeping generalization yourself here, by claiming 'every' and while I agree that people are just people, please explain how life has never been the same since for 'every' American. Most will just move on with their lives, without the feeling of insecurity every time they visit an airport. How is that a way to live ones life. There are millions of overseas tourists that pass through the States every year. Do they feel the same sense of fear and paranoia that Americans do? They are on the same soil.
America is perhaps the most violent country in the world and that includes those that aren't considered from the West. Is it at all surprising that an event like 9/11 ended up taking place? It is ok for the US to invade other countries with their phony propaganda and self-serving agendas and still claim due provocation, yet when something happens on their own soil, it becomes undignified. What is the diff?
Sorry for the delay. I was having trouble logging in. You claimed I was feeling fear and paranoia, so I pointed out that I have traveled through the Middle East solo, which I would not have done if I was paranoid and afraid. Let me explain something for you. After the US got pulled into the ridiculous war know as World War I, we became isolationist. If a conflict didn't directly involve us, then we didn't get involved. Hitler rose to power, we did nothing. Germany began invading other European countries, and it wasn't our problem. We didn't get involved in the war until Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, and the entire world was in crisis. After the devastation of World War 2, the US was determined not to make the same mistake again. If a country became belligerent and began invading their neighbors, then they had to be stopped. We became the world's sherriff. Have we made mistakes? Certainly. But if the US suddenly decided to turn back to isolationism, how long do you think it would take Russia or China to begin gobbling up neighboring countries? Personally, I don't want to find out. There have been times when I wished we could stop being the world police, but every time we pull back, Russia does things like invade Crimea, and China begins expanding territory into the South China Sea. Testing the boundaries. It's fine if you hate the US, and Americans. You have that right. But would you really prefer us to go back to isolationism? Just curious.
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Post by goz on Oct 4, 2018 6:08:37 GMT
As Maya already noted (& I already posted) I was referring to something known as a MASS MURDER. Most people with an ounce of intelligence would have clued into that, especially since it is the most cited terrorist attack in recent years (despite others occurring since then). Although natural disasters occur in a lot of areas in the world, INCLUDING that awful United States, I do not know of ANY nation that actually makes an annual observance to any in particular, no matter how great the death toll (at most, they may usually mention it, like say, the following year. etc., however, they generally do not declare official solemn memorials, such as the one for 9/11/01 (now known as American Patriots' Day); Remembrance Day; or even Women's Remembrance Day (Dec. 6'Th), etc.Anybody who was line on the day brains were being passed out, would have clued into what this topic thread was intended to be about!!! But not you or Toasted Cheese. I wonder why? Oh, & for the record, it is hypocrisy for someone who is an anti-christian bigot to lecture others on what is, & what is not christian or non-christian behaviour. Because we can read English and not what was in your mind when you actually wrote the thread. You mean 'allegedly' Christian behaviour? We didn't make the rules and then browbeat those others with them who don't happen to believe, and it is hypocritical of those professing to be Christian to break them and plead some pathetic excuses.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Oct 4, 2018 6:17:31 GMT
This is like.....so done already.
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Post by goz on Oct 4, 2018 6:18:43 GMT
This is like.....so done already. ...and yet this behaviour endures through the ages.
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Post by mystery on Oct 5, 2018 4:25:23 GMT
Sorry for the delay. I was having trouble logging in. You claimed I was feeling fear and paranoia, so I pointed out that I have traveled through the Middle East solo, which I would not have done if I was paranoid and afraid. Let me explain something for you. After the US got pulled into the ridiculous war know as World War I, we became isolationist. If a conflict didn't directly involve us, then we didn't get involved. Hitler rose to power, we did nothing. Germany began invading other European countries, and it wasn't our problem. We didn't get involved in the war until Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, and the entire world was in crisis. After the devastation of World War 2, the US was determined not to make the same mistake again. If a country became belligerent and began invading their neighbors, then they had to be stopped. We became the world's sherriff. Have we made mistakes? Certainly. But if the US suddenly decided to turn back to isolationism, how long do you think it would take Russia or China to begin gobbling up neighboring countries? Personally, I don't want to find out. There have been times when I wished we could stop being the world police, but every time we pull back, Russia does things like invade Crimea, and China begins expanding territory into the South China Sea. Testing the boundaries. It's fine if you hate the US, and Americans. You have that right. But would you really prefer us to go back to isolationism? Just curious. You claimed you were afraid as an American about travelling on planes and spoke for other Americans as well feeling the same so I called you out on it. Then you say you travelled solo in the Middle East. The paranoia aspect was your own generalized point which was wholly transparent because you contradicted yourself by your own actions. You weren't really afraid after all due to your own admission here. So what exactly is it that you feel?
There is also a condescending tone happening with your...Let me explain something to you...opening, as though I don't get it. It this because I wasn't supposed to counter your point? With the comments I have made about American hypocrisy and paranoia, this is largely establishment views that filter down from the top to the people. I commented on the US mentality of superiority and neurosis and that does not mean hate. Hate is a strong term and you have distorted my stance into hate.
Regarding isolationism with the US, last century was a totally different kettle of fish. While I am anti-military and militant behavior, to my understanding, WW1 was a war devised by the ruling class and royals to pit the working class against each other due to fear of revolution. They made it about nationalism and border protection and it was in hindsight a futile and pointless war with a devastating loss of male life. No-one appears to seem clear on what the war was really all about, except it was about keeping the status quo in place.
WWII appeared to have a different dynamic and people had some sense of cause here. It was atrocious nonetheless, but personally, I also feel that with the US waiting until Pearl Harbor to get involved, because that was seen as a direct attack on the US, it may not have escalated as long as it did and the holocaust could have been prevented, or the impact lessened. Of course there were appalling and self-serving government and military agendas behind it all as well. Was this about pitting the working class people against each other again. Norman Bethune on the secret of war:
Interesting that you haven't commented on Vietnam. Was this about the US government and military being isolationists as well? What was their agenda and cause here? Yes, to promote more paranoia and fear regarding the red scare of communism. More karma attributed to the US. I'm sorry, but I don't have time right now for a long reply. I have to go see some lemurs. In brief, I never said that I was afraid. That was your assertion. I said that 9/11 had tangible effects that we see every time we go to the airport, which is true. It's not fear that I feel, but more a sense of collective trauma, an old wound, a sense of loss and sadness. The attack happened in New York and DC, but it was an attack on the entire country, too. And for a moment, we came together as one nation, one people, and even through our sadness, it was really quite beautiful. Isolationism ended at Pearl Harbor. We have not been isolationist in over 75 years. So, I'll ask you again: would you prefer that we go back to isolationism?
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Post by mystery on Oct 5, 2018 10:04:22 GMT
I'm sorry, but I don't have time right now for a long reply. I have to go see some lemurs. In brief, I never said that I was afraid. That was your assertion. I said that 9/11 had tangible effects that we see every time we go to the airport, which is true. It's not fear that I feel, but more a sense of collective trauma, an old wound, a sense of loss and sadness. The attack happened in New York and DC, but it was an attack on the entire country, too. And for a moment, we came together as one nation, one people, and even through our sadness, it was really quite beautiful. Isolationism ended at Pearl Harbor. We have not been isolationist in over 75 years. So, I'll ask you again: would you prefer that we go back to isolationism? I don't care, I am not American and what the US does tends to affect the rest of the world. Is English not your first language? We seem to be having some trouble communicating with each other. You correctly stated that US foreign policy affects the rest of the world, so I would think that as a non-American, you would especially care. Earlier, you said that you were anti-military and anti-military behavior. What do you think would happen if the US decided to close every military base, bring home all the troops and all the Navy ships, and just leave the world to fend for itself? Would that be an improvement, in your opinion, since everything we do is wrong? People like you do make me want the US to go back to isolationism. You think we're the evil empire who do nothing right, and the world would be better off without us. It would be interesting to see what would happen if you got your wish. Unfortunately, if we did that, then I'm quite certain it would result in World War 3, with Russia and China carving up the planet like a Thanksgiving turkey. The sad thing is that the we spend so much money trying to police the world, and instead of gratitude, we mostly just get scorn and derision. Maybe we are fools...
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Post by Hairynosedwombat on Oct 5, 2018 13:04:59 GMT
It happened on a Tuesday morning too. 9/11/01. ( I can think of several more horrifying events than that. 22 March 2003, the destruction of Iraq by the US in revenge for 9/11 July 2006, 800,000 people ordered to leave Southern Lebanon because in 48 hours it became a free fire zone where over 1,000 people were killed by a marauding army. 26 Cecember 2004 when a tsunami killed 250,000 people in Thailand, Indonesia, Sri Lanka
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Post by goz on Oct 6, 2018 20:43:26 GMT
It happened on a Tuesday morning too. 9/11/01. ( I can think of several more horrifying events than that. 22 March 2003, the destruction of Iraq by the US in revenge for 9/11 July 2006, 800,000 people ordered to leave Southern Lebanon because in 48 hours it became a free fire zone where over 1,000 people were killed by a marauding army. 26 Cecember 2004 when a tsunami killed 250,000 people in Thailand, Indonesia, Sri Lanka Be careful about answering this thread as if the OP really means what she says in the thread title. I challenged her on this and got called all manner of unpleasant vitriolic epithets. Apparently if you read her mind (?) it is merely a 9/11 tribute thread , so don't be so disrespectful of the victims of 9/11.
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Post by Hairynosedwombat on Oct 6, 2018 21:33:46 GMT
I can think of several more horrifying events than that. 22 March 2003, the destruction of Iraq by the US in revenge for 9/11 July 2006, 800,000 people ordered to leave Southern Lebanon because in 48 hours it became a free fire zone where over 1,000 people were killed by a marauding army. 26 Cecember 2004 when a tsunami killed 250,000 people in Thailand, Indonesia, Sri Lanka Be careful about answering this thread as if the OP really means what she says in the thread title. I challenged her on this and got called all manner of unpleasant vitriolic epithets. Apparently if you read her mind (?) it is merely a 9/11 tribute thread , so don't be so disrespectful of the victims of 9/11. It isn't disrespectful of the victims of 9/11 to be disrespectful of the Americans who used it as an excuse to exact revenge by killing many more people who had nothing to do with the attack.
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