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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Oct 5, 2018 11:05:11 GMT
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ryboto
Sophomore
@ryboto
Posts: 776
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Post by ryboto on Oct 5, 2018 13:08:50 GMT
Eh, if I believe that, then I have to believe Sidious is so beyond powerful that there's no way the fate that befell him by Vaders hand makes any sense...
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Post by Jedan Archer on Oct 5, 2018 19:33:03 GMT
"Losing the will to live" is a real life depression thing.
I think George Lucas wanted to show that Padme Amidala did not die because of some accidental injury caused by the strangling, but that Anakin's action and choices killed everything she stood and lived for. Melodramatic but I think we can keep good old Palpatine out of that.
Lucas had to kill one of the lead here. Back with Jedi he got a lot of flack (deservedly) cause he did not kill anybody, so in his big final tragedy masterpiece where all goes down to hell he just had to.
I suspect that Palpatine might have been behind Shmi's abduction, rape and murder. Sounds much like him. To cause conflict in Anakin and turn him against the Jedi ("We will follow your career with great interest").
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Post by James on Oct 21, 2018 18:03:53 GMT
Sure, it works.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Oct 21, 2018 18:49:00 GMT
eh, it might work, Palpatine clearly was fully in the picture that Anakin had a wife and was worried to lose her. Thus his manipulation.
It's one of these thigs Lucas left open to speculate, like with Darth Plagueis creating Anakin.
But if Palpatine is behind everything he gets close to being a all powerful Villain Sue, in the end lot's of things went against plan like the Queen escaping from Naboo, or Obi Wan discovering the sleeping droid army in Clones.
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Oct 21, 2018 18:55:02 GMT
She died of a broken heart.
"Fan theories" suck.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Oct 21, 2018 19:43:42 GMT
yeah, and isn't the moral of the tale the inability to let go according to Lucas?
Like a person afraid to lose the partner and thus become controlling, clinging, jealous and thereby letting the fear of loss cause the loss itself.
Similar with Anakin, the fear to lose his wife, like his mother, was the catalyst that killed her.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 14, 2019 0:06:13 GMT
in the end lot's of things went against plan like the Queen escaping from Naboo, or Obi Wan discovering the sleeping droid army in Clones. Do you mean the opposite? He needed both of those things to happen for his plan to succeed. |
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 14, 2019 0:11:44 GMT
yeah, and isn't the moral of the tale the inability to let go according to Lucas? Like a person afraid to lose the partner and thus become controlling, clinging, jealous and thereby letting the fear of loss cause the loss itself. Similar with Anakin, the fear to lose his wife, like his mother, was the catalyst that killed her. Yoda literally says as much when he tells Annie "Fear of loss is a path to the dark side". Hell, Lucas spends three movies underlining the fact that Jedi aren't supposed to have "people they care about" in the first place. So file this next to Darth Jar Jar in the "apologist theories that sound nice but don't hold up" drawer. |
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Jan 14, 2019 10:21:32 GMT
bogged down in the end lot's of things went against plan like the Queen escaping from Naboo, or Obi Wan discovering the sleeping droid army in Clones. Do you mean the opposite? He n eeded both of those things to happen for his plan to succeed. no he really didn't. (i) Palpatine's plan in TPM was: 1. Invade Naboo and make population suffer. 2. Force the Queen to sign the annexation treaty. 3. "Destroy" (ie murder) the Queen. 4. Use outrage over invasion events, the ratification of the treaty and incompetence of Chancellor Valorum (who gets bogged down by Palp's allies) to file for a vote of no confidence. 5. Play the victim card and ride the sympathy bonus to make yourself chancellor. Thanks to the Jedi the Queen escaped; Palps had to wing it by persuading her to vote against Valorum. The most worried face he makes is when she arrives at Coruscant. (ii) As for AotC: The Sith obviously did not plan for Obi Wan to discovers the army. The plan seemingly was for the Separatists (after the peace negotiations failed due to Palp's "I will not let this Republic be split in two") to create a battle-droid army and to strike the defenseless Republic first. So to force the opposition against the Militarization Act to relent and give Palpatine executive powers, such as the power of creating an Clone army. So to start a Secession War and thus make Palpatine the strong man within the Republic. The Empire grows out of the Republic like a dark side tumor. Obi Wan accelerated the process. |
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 14, 2019 10:35:23 GMT
bogged down Do you mean the opposite? He n eeded both of those things to happen for his plan to succeed. no he really didn't. (i) Palpatine's plan in TPM was: 1. Invade Naboo and make population suffer. 2. Force the Queen to sign the annexation treaty. 3. "Destroy" (ie murder) the Queen. 4. Use outrage over invasion events, the ratification of the treaty and incompetence of Chancellor Valorum (who gets bogged down by Palp's allies) to file for a vote of no confidence. 5. Play the victim card and ride the sympathy bonus to make yourself chancellor. Thanks to the Jedi the Queen escaped; Palps had to wing it by persuading her to vote against Valorum. The most worried face he makes is when she arrives at Coruscant. (ii) As for AotC: The Sith obviously did not plan for Obi Wan to discovers the army. The plan seemingly was for the Separatists (after the peace negotiations failed due to Palp's "I will not let this Republic be split in two") to create a battle-droid army and to strike the defenseless Republic first. So to force the opposition against the Militarization Act to relent and give Palpatine executive powers, such as the power of creating an Clone army. So to start a Secession War and thus make Palpatine the strong man within the Republic. The Empire grows out of the Republic like a dark side tumor. Obi Wan accelerated the process. 1. Why would the Senate vote no confidence on Zod if the queen were killed before he could even do anything? She had to physically go there and see him not doing anything in order to be pushed to vote no confidence by Palps. Mind you, Padme is both a. Naive enough to listen to Palps. b. Apparently so supported by the Senate, that not only will they kick Zod to the curb on her lead, but listen to f*cking Jar Jar of all people about installing dictatorships just because she trusted him with her spot. 2. That clone army Obi-Wan discovers had a built-in secret order to kill the Jedi, so what are you talking about? |
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Jan 14, 2019 11:47:42 GMT
bogged down no he really didn't. (i) Palpatine's plan in TPM was: 1. Invade Naboo and make population suffer. 2. Force the Queen to sign the annexation treaty. 3. "Destroy" (ie murder) the Queen. 4. Use outrage over invasion events, the ratification of the treaty and incompetence of Chancellor Valorum (who gets bogged down by Palp's allies) to file for a vote of no confidence. 5. Play the victim card and ride the sympathy bonus to make yourself chancellor. Thanks to the Jedi the Queen escaped; Palps had to wing it by persuading her to vote against Valorum. The most worried face he makes is when she arrives at Coruscant. (ii) As for AotC: The Sith obviously did not plan for Obi Wan to discovers the army. The plan seemingly was for the Separatists (after the peace negotiations failed due to Palp's "I will not let this Republic be split in two") to create a battle-droid army and to strike the defenseless Republic first. So to force the opposition against the Militarization Act to relent and give Palpatine executive powers, such as the power of creating an Clone army. So to start a Secession War and thus make Palpatine the strong man within the Republic. The Empire grows out of the Republic like a dark side tumor. Obi Wan accelerated the process. 1. Why would the Senate vote no confidence on Zod if the queen were killed before he could even do anything? She had to physically go there and see him not doing anything in order to be pushed to vote no confidence by Palps. I explained it. Palps would have cried foul in view of the "alarming events" by plying victim card, like that: "My innocent queen has disappeared, maybe raped, maybe killed, maybe both". "My noble people and home were invaded and are killed by the greedy Federation!" "The Trade Federation tries to frivolously ratify the annexation treaty of Naboo, my home!" What further proof do you need? My people are dying, we need help now! What…? Chancellor Valorum, you want to defer my motion to send an investigation committe to Naboo before deciding...? Is this the UN? On behalf of my government (I love democracy, I love the Republic btw) I move for a vote of no confidence in your leadership!!! Support me Senate. So what. Padme arc is to overcome her advisors (Panaka, Qui Gon, Palps) and become a leader and win the day (really Palpatine wins as his theme is played in the celebration). Liberty has died with thunderous applause (and is dying) so many times in human history. Jar Jar may be the most likeable of all useful idiots that had no place as decision maker. Maybe, just maybe the US will one day have a useful idiot being the dick-sucking puppet of a sinister leader pulled by strings of corrupt business, collusion and honey trap tapes.
It's Lucas' genius that he gave us a moral tale about the downfall of democracy foreshadowing so many later events. I was talking about the battle droid army. It is not revealed nor important to the plot how Palpatine would have introduced the Clone army to the Republic if Obi Wan had not found it in the first place. That would have been simple though. Palps covered it up as a Jedi conspiracy (Master Sifo Dias who they captured as scape goat). |
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 14, 2019 20:22:38 GMT
1. Why would the Senate vote no confidence on Zod if the queen were killed before he could even do anything? She had to physically go there and see him not doing anything in order to be pushed to vote no confidence by Palps. I explained it. Palps would have cried foul in view of the "alarming events" by plying victim card, like that: "My innocent queen has disappeared, maybe raped, maybe killed, maybe both". "My noble people and home were invaded and are killed by the greedy Federation!" "The Trade Federation tries to frivolously ratify the annexation treaty of Naboo, my home!" What further proof do you need? My people are dying, we need help now! What…? Chancellor Valorum, you want to defer my motion to send an investigation committe to Naboo before deciding...? Is this the UN? On behalf of my government (I love democracy, I love the Republic btw) I move for a vote of no confidence in your leadership!!! Support me Senate. So what. Padme arc is to overcome her advisors (Panaka, Qui Gon, Palps) and become a leader and win the day (really Palpatine wins as his theme is played in the celebration). Liberty has died with thunderous applause (and is dying) so many times in human history. Jar Jar may be the most likeable of all useful idiots that had no place as decision maker. Maybe, just maybe the US will one day have a useful idiot being the dick-sucking puppet of a sinister leader pulled by strings of corrupt business, collusion and honey trap tapes.
It's Lucas' genius that he gave us a moral tale about the downfall of democracy foreshadowing so many later events. I was talking about the battle droid army. It is not revealed nor important to the plot how Palpatine would have introduced the Clone army to the Republic if Obi Wan had not found it in the first place. That would have been simple though. Palps covered it up as a Jedi conspiracy (Master Sifo Dias who they captured as scape goat). Well, how about any proof whatsoever? There's no one to talk about what's happening and the suffering and dying of Naboo's people if someone from Naboo (points if it's the beloved Queen) doesn't get there to tell them. All Palpatine has is 1. The negotiators didn't arrive to Naboo 2. He can no longer reach Naboo. So the Senate is going to impeach Zod because he doesn't immediately declare war over Palpatine's guesswork and assumptions? If Padme signed the treaty, the invasion would have been legal. Not much the Republic can do about it then, and not particularly Zod's fault if it were to happen. Assuming they did decide to vote No Confidence, why would they vote Palpatine? The way it happened, he had the sympathy vote, but there'd be less sympathy if his Queen gave in to the Federation. Also, when did anyone say anything about killing her after the treaty was signed? You said Palpatine looked scared when she got to Coruscant, but his face looks neutral to me. On the contrary, the only time he looks worried is when she says she's going back to Naboo. He says they'll make her sign the treaty, and sounds legitimately panicked. That's because he doesn't actually want the treaty signed or Padme dead. --- It was Palpatine's idea to put Padme under Jedi watch. Then he sent the very bounty hunter he cloned to assassinate her, which was of course easily foiled by the Jedi, leaving a paper trail back to said bounty hunter's headquarters where a clone army designed to exterminate the Jedi is waiting with gift wrap and a fancy bow. SURELY this was all part of the plan. |
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Jan 14, 2019 20:56:53 GMT
I explained it. Palps would have cried foul in view of the "alarming events" by plying victim card, like that: "My innocent queen has disappeared, maybe raped, maybe killed, maybe both". "My noble people and home were invaded and are killed by the greedy Federation!" "The Trade Federation tries to frivolously ratify the annexation treaty of Naboo, my home!" What further proof do you need? My people are dying, we need help now! What…? Chancellor Valorum, you want to defer my motion to send an investigation committe to Naboo before deciding...? Is this the UN? On behalf of my government (I love democracy, I love the Republic btw) I move for a vote of no confidence in your leadership!!! Support me Senate. So what. Padme arc is to overcome her advisors (Panaka, Qui Gon, Palps) and become a leader and win the day (really Palpatine wins as his theme is played in the celebration). Liberty has died with thunderous applause (and is dying) so many times in human history. Jar Jar may be the most likeable of all useful idiots that had no place as decision maker. Maybe, just maybe the US will one day have a useful idiot being the dick-sucking puppet of a sinister leader pulled by strings of corrupt business, collusion and honey trap tapes.
It's Lucas' genius that he gave us a moral tale about the downfall of democracy foreshadowing so many later events. I was talking about the battle droid army. It is not revealed nor important to the plot how Palpatine would have introduced the Clone army to the Republic if Obi Wan had not found it in the first place. That would have been simple though. Palps covered it up as a Jedi conspiracy (Master Sifo Dias who they captured as scape goat). Well, how about any proof whatsoever? There's no one to talk about what's happening and the suffering and dying of Naboo's people if someone from Naboo (points if it's the beloved Queen) doesn't get there to tell them. All Palpatine has is 1. The negotiators didn't arrive to Naboo 2. He can no longer reach Naboo. So the Senate is going to impeach Zod because he doesn't immediately declare war over Palpatine's guesswork and assumptions? Nope, as stated: Palpatine would have the Naboo-annexation treaty that the TF would try to ratify in the Senate (as they explicitly state). Also, as you point out, there is a communication break down after a blockade (!). So there would be little room to speculate what happened. Nope, it's not a civil law agreement bit a treaty which must be ratified by the senate (as is explicitly stated in the film). The same way it happened in the film. The victim card and sympathy bonus that his system was occupied and his queen is gone. But maybe Palps lied and even the vote was rigged by him. In the end the blue-dude vice chancellor was his ally. Qui Gon stated that he felt that they were planning to destroy the queen (meaning killing). Also He's not talking about bad weeds. Also, the TF accents were not Japanese. The only one who sounded remotely Asian was Nute Gunray, but his lackeys all had different accents from him. So this old legends collapses.  interpretation of facial expressions are a subjective. But if he cared for her why "wipe them out, all of them" then? Also, the treaty at this point was not relevant for him anymore as he reached his goal. If he seriously did not want her go back I imagine he was worried that his idiotic allies would fail and ruin it all, maybe this the reason why he sent them Maul as a chaperone and avenge. well that is not impossible and actually an interesting thought. Maybe Palpatine actually spread some bread crumbs and the Jedi just followed them to Camino and then to Geonosis. |
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 14, 2019 23:30:01 GMT
Well, how about any proof whatsoever? There's no one to talk about what's happening and the suffering and dying of Naboo's people if someone from Naboo (points if it's the beloved Queen) doesn't get there to tell them. All Palpatine has is 1. The negotiators didn't arrive to Naboo 2. He can no longer reach Naboo. So the Senate is going to impeach Zod because he doesn't immediately declare war over Palpatine's guesswork and assumptions? Nope, as stated: Palpatine would have the Naboo-annexation treaty that the TF would try to ratify in the Senate (as they explicitly state). Also, as you point out, there is a communication break down after a blockade (!). So there would be little room to speculate what happened. Nope, it's not a civil law agreement bit a treaty which must be ratified by the senate (as is explicitly stated in the film). The same way it happened in the film. The victim card and sympathy bonus that his system was occupied and his queen is gone. But maybe Palps lied and even the vote was rigged by him. In the end the blue-dude vice chancellor was his ally. Qui Gon stated that he felt that they were planning to destroy the queen (meaning killing). Also He's not talking about bad weeds. Also, the TF accents were not Japanese. The only one who sounded remotely Asian was Nute Gunray, but his lackeys all had different accents from him. So this old legends collapses. interpretation of facial expressions are a subjective. But if he cared for her why "wipe them out, all of them" then? Also, the treaty at this point was not relevant for him anymore as he reached his goal. If he seriously did not want her go back I imagine he was worried that his idiotic allies would fail and ruin it all, maybe this the reason why he sent them Maul as a chaperone and avenge. well that is not impossible and actually an interesting thought. Maybe Palpatine actually spread some bread crumbs and the Jedi just followed them to Camino and then to Geonosis. Okay. But if the treaty is the Senate's to retify, why would *the Senate* then turn around and blame Zod? And I stand by what I said, Zod sending in a team to verify what's going on before sending in an army makes some logical sense if he doesn't have any witnesses telling him there's an invasion and people dying. The TF's droid army was unbeknownst to the Republic, as noted by Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's surprise. Your version makes the Senate look like crazed warmongers. These people haven't had a full-scale war since the Republic's formation and don't even have a standing army. They're not going to jump to "Padme is being raped, kill the Japs and impeach the Chancellor!" over a pover outage. It also raises a couple of questions: 1. if Palps actually wants the Queen captured and treaty signed, why is he assuring her the ambassadors are there, thus tipping her off that Fu Manchu is lying and planning an invasion? 2. Why is he so adamant about getting her to issue a vote of no confidence if he can just do it himself and win? I don't remember Qui-Gin saying that, but he is after all Qui-Gon "I don't sense anything" Jinn. ---- Of course that's what happened. You saw that movie four times in the theater? |
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