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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Mar 27, 2017 17:00:13 GMT
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 27, 2017 17:09:53 GMT
Tywin officially
Cercei & Jaime when they started boinking each other is the technical reason.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2017 21:47:38 GMT
Littlefinger and Lysa Arryn, killing John Arryn then blaming the Lannisters. That's what kicked it all off. Although John Arryn maybe for poking around in the first place. As far as the show is concerned, I would say the start of it all is John Arryn's death, therefore Littlefinger and Lysa.
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Post by Aj_June on Mar 28, 2017 2:57:13 GMT
Lady Catelyn exacerbated the tension by kidnapping the imp.
Though I wouldn't say she started it.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Mar 28, 2017 4:08:08 GMT
Lady Catelyn exacerbated the tension by kidnapping the imp. Though I wouldn't say she started it. What is a war? How does it start? And which war are we talking about anyhow?
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Post by Aj_June on Mar 28, 2017 8:03:43 GMT
Lady Catelyn exacerbated the tension by kidnapping the imp. Though I wouldn't say she started it. What is a war? How does it start? And which war are we talking about anyhow? War could be described as a state of prolonged turmoil or strife faced by citizens of a realm. It could also involve extended struggle for control of the realm. How does it start? There is no black and white answer to this question. Different people may have different opinions regarding whose actions caused the war to start. Supporters of Stannis Baratheon will justify Stannis going to war because they are traditionalists and believe kingdom should pass to legal heir of the king. These people will blame the war on those who are stopping the one true king from assuming his throne. Supporters of Lannisters will hold other parties responsible for war because they see default situation (Joff as king) as good enough and are against war from pragmatic point of view. These people may claim that accepting Joff as king won't have caused any significant bloodshed. People who believe duty as the biggest thing would hold Lord Stark as being justified in trying to install Stannis. I don't hold any particular person responsible for this war. The drunkard king was no good to his queen and was in part responsible for birth of 3 incestuous kids. That said, I hold Lady Catelyn responsible for defeating the cause of Starks and hurrying the realm into war.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Mar 28, 2017 8:57:24 GMT
What is a war? How does it start? And which war are we talking about anyhow? War could be described as a state of prolonged turmoil or strife faced by citizens of a realm. It could also involve extended struggle for control of the realm. How does it start? There is no black and white answer to this question. I think there can be, just like there can be clear responsibilities in who starts a fight. If you call me an idiot, I am fully responsible for punching your face in return. I don't have to do it. If you point what looks like a loaded gun at me, however, then you are responsible for someone else shooting you first if I'm lucky. War is a conflict between armed forces, conducted for a purpose going beyond the interest of the sole forces engaged. Example 1: a band of armed men stealing food or women from defenseless civilians is not war. A lord sending soldiers against these armed men is starting a war for the purpose of protecting civilians. The armed men caused the war by breaking peace and the lord was justified in starting it. Example 2: a general marching an army across a border, beyond its legally accepted area of control, is performing an act of war. A ruler sending his own army to drive them back is technically starting the war but the invading general, or the ruler giving him the order to invade, caused it. Further reasons behind these actions may explain or motivate them. Hunger resulting from bad harvests, greed, resentment or defiance (“strike them before they can strike us”), broken agreements, lesser offences can all be invoked as causes for a war but the responsibility for a war lies with the person who consciously takes the decision to engage the foreseeable process which will escalate into an armed conflict. The person who freely decides to send men to plunder a village or to lead an army across a border is responsible for the war that ensues, no matter what reasons he had to do so. Several wars are taking place in this story. The first one is The War for the Imp. Tywin Lannister started it to subdue House Tully into respect and force Catelyn Stark to release his son. He made a conscious choice of it. He could have appealed to the King instead and demanded his son be released. It was a local war with a limited scope and ended in the moment Tyrion walked into the Lannister camp. Catelyn Stark took Tyrion prisoner on a mere suspicion. It was an act of aggression but not an act of war. Did it cause the war? I don’t think so because Tywin had a choice. Had Tyrion been kept against the king’s orders to send him back for a proper trial, it would have since the king would have felt compelled to a clean enforcement of the law but this is not what happened. The second is The War of the Five Kings, which is actually made of several: The War for King Renly, The War for King Stannis, The War against King Joffrey and The War to Plunder the North. The War for King Renly didn’t take place; it ended before the first battle but would have been caused by Renly declaring himself king for no other reason than he felt he would be loved. He would have started it too, marching on to King’s Landing at some point. A good part of the forces he gathered joined Stannis who started his own war to put himself on the throne because he thought he was “the rightful King”. Here we can debate who really caused this war. Stannis made a conscious decision of pursuing his perceived right. He could as well have decided that peace in the realm was worth more than his “right”, especially since no one else knew of the accusations against Joffrey’s legitimacy. As long as people believed Joffrey was legitimate, no damage was done to the importance of the rule of law which held the realm together. Stannis could have played “uncle” just like Jaime and the world would have been a better place for all others. On the other hand, Ned Stark knew Stannis enough to predict his decision and proceeded to inform him, knowing war would ensue. It can be argued that Ned Stark equally caused the War for King Stannis, since he took his decision in full expectation of the consequences. He shares responsibility for it. Robb Stark started the War against King Joffrey. He called the banners and moved south into the Riverlands, where he proceeded to attack Lannister armies in two different positions. He did this to free his father, imprisoned for treason, disregarding demands of peace received from the Queen through his sister. The cause for the war was in personal feelings of defiance towards the Queen’s intentions and the responsibility for it is all on Robb’s side. His later decision to “kill them all” after receiving news of his father’s execution is purely motivated by vengeance. Last and least, Balon Greyjoy started the War to Plunder the North for personal reasons rooted in vanity and greed. No one else caused it. Littlefinger and Lysa Arryn assassinated a man, Cersei committed adultery, Jaime defenestrated a kid in panic, someone sent an assassin to finish him, a boar killed his drunken hunter, Joffrey took a legally justified decision to execute a traitor… None of all this started or consciously caused a war, even though these events played a role in the decision process of the men who did.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 28, 2017 13:21:25 GMT
Lady Catelyn exacerbated the tension by kidnapping the imp. Though I wouldn't say she started it. She did not kidnap Tyrion. She arrested him and held him captive and had him put on trial based on fake information from Littlefinger. This was entirely within her rights to do.
So incidentally, Littefinger was smart enough to predict what would happen.
In terms of an actual war starting, it began with Tywin maneuvering his forces into Riverlands and killing people.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Mar 28, 2017 13:28:50 GMT
Lady Catelyn exacerbated the tension by kidnapping the imp. Though I wouldn't say she started it. She did not kidnap Tyrion. She arrested him and held him captive and had him put on trial based on fake information from Littlefinger. This was entirely within her rights to do. I do not see how listening to someone's lie gave Cat' any rights to do anything.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 28, 2017 13:35:19 GMT
She did not kidnap Tyrion. She arrested him and held him captive and had him put on trial based on fake information from Littlefinger. This was entirely within her rights to do. I do not see how listening to someone's lie gave Cat' any rights to do anything. It was pretty easily explained. She had cause.
Tywin, on the other hand, could have went to Robert who ordered Tyrion's release but instead decided to destroy parts of the Riverlands.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Mar 28, 2017 13:39:36 GMT
I do not see how listening to someone's lie gave Cat' any rights to do anything. It was pretty easily explained. She had cause.
Tywin, on the other hand, could have went to Robert who ordered Tyrion's release but instead decided to destroy parts of the Riverlands.
A cause is not a right. Her seizing of Tyrion was illegal. Tywin was not exercing a right either, merely using his strength.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2017 18:04:27 GMT
Oh I see, we're talking about who literally started the war, from your meme I read it that the discussion was about who started the ball rolling or caused the events leading to the war, because Ned didn't literally start a war. I say Littlefinger because John Arryn's death was start of the whole thing. John's investigating the kids' legitimacy could be the start of it, but as far as I recall he hadn't done anything about his findings before his death so did nothing to start a war. I'm trying to remember where he got the idea in the first place and I think I remember it being Stannis who planted this seed and asked him to investigate (correct me if I'm wrong, there's a lot to remember and I'm not sure if this was just in the book or also in the series). So if this is the case, Stannis started it and continued it after John's death, sending his ravens out to everyone claiming Joffrey's illegitimacy. As far as the series goes, I think Littlefinger is the instigator and manipulator of the whole shebang. Your meme is hilarious by the way. I do enjoy your memes, keep em coming
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Mar 28, 2017 18:17:01 GMT
Oh I see, we're talking about who literally started the war, from your meme I read it that the discussion was about who started the ball rolling or caused the events leading to the war, because Ned didn't literally start a war. Ned didn't "start" the war but I think he "caused" it and yes, I mean he started the ball rolling by kicking it knowing where it would go and that there was no holding it back anymore. This is what he did when he publicly declared Joffrey illegitimate in the throne room and had one of his men bring a message to Stannis (I am only discussing the show). All events before this merely placed the ball, waxed the floor, positioned the players and gave them motives, but they kicked nothing. The meme is stolen, by the way. I just added the bottom line. There was the "original":
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Post by Aj_June on Mar 29, 2017 7:23:50 GMT
mummersfarce and MarvThis is a very good topic by Leo. Would appreciate your views and participation.
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Post by Marv on Mar 29, 2017 13:18:44 GMT
Honestly, it's all just escalation. Just like real history there's handfuls of small moments leading to bigger ones and bigger ones. Technically the war started when Ned and Cersei couldn't come to an agreement about her kids heritage and that none of them were Roberts blood. In that moment Cersei decided to have Ned arrested and his men killed, officially sparking the war between North Stark Loyalists and the rest of the Kingdom. But you could look at several smaller moments before that and say they escalated that situation. Ultimately tho, Neds desire to do what was right ultimately led to war that probably could've been averted.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Mar 29, 2017 13:56:20 GMT
Honestly, it's all just escalation. Just like real history there's handfuls of small moments leading to bigger ones and bigger ones. Technically the war started when Ned and Cersei couldn't come to an agreement about her kids heritage and that none of them were Roberts blood. In that moment Cersei decided to have Ned arrested and his men killed, officially sparking the war between North Stark Loyalists and the rest of the Kingdom. But you could look at several smaller moments before that and say they escalated that situation. Ultimately tho, Neds desire to do what was right ultimately led to war that probably could've been averted. It is of course escalation and each step can be judged differently. When Ned told Cersei what he knew he was burning bridges, giving his opponent reasons never to trust him again. When he called Joffrey illegitimate in the throne room, he was crossing another point of no return, making a state secret public. This was no longer a private affair, in this moment he had planted the seed for strife in a much larger scale. He knew and accepted it. When Cersei had him arrested, she was reacting to Ned's order given to arrest her and doing the only sensible thing in declaring his accusation a lie. The moment before, she had given him the chance to accept the new king and return home safely. She was working for peace when Ned was pushing for war. He had already made a similar step before when he sent a letter to Stannis. He knew he was starting a war with this letter. Cersei was the one saying "let's find an agreement" when Ned was coming with armed men to take her and her son prisoners. Ned had already called Tywin to answer or be branded a traitor. He knew he was starting a war and didn't mind. Ned Stark was an asshole.
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Post by Nightman on Mar 31, 2017 1:00:41 GMT
I always put the blame squarely on Rhaegar and Lyanna. If they hadn't run off, none of this would have happened and the kingdom would be in better shape to fight the real war.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Mar 31, 2017 5:04:48 GMT
I always put the blame squarely on Rhaegar and Lyanna. If they hadn't run off, none of this would have happened and the kingdom would be in better shape to fight the real war. You can blame Rhaegar and Lyanna for doing something that angered others but they didn't start a war. Robert's Rebellion was started by… Robert together with Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. It was caused by the Mad King when he turned into a tyrant arbitrarily slaughtering his vassals on a whim. We may debate if war was the proper answer to tyranny and argue that assassination or deposition would have been preferable but it doesn't look like this alternative was available to the rebels. The case is similar to Robb Stark's calling of the banner, the difference being that the arrest of Ned Stark was both legal and the right thing to do while the Mad King's reaction was not. In both cases, we see feudal lords starting a war for personal reasons and in both cases they turn into "win or die" situations.
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Post by Nightman on Mar 31, 2017 6:49:07 GMT
It was caused by the Mad King when he turned into a tyrant arbitrarily slaughtering his vassals on a whim. I still blame Rhaegar and Lyanna. Aerys had lost his mind after Duskendale and was incapable of running a bake sale, let alone a kingdom. Rhaegar knew full well how his father was, and knew from the prophecies that the Long Night was coming again. But what did he do? Run off with a teen girl, insulting half the kingdom in the process, and causing a chain reaction of BS leading to the current series.
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Post by Aj_June on Mar 31, 2017 6:53:17 GMT
Honestly, it's all just escalation. Just like real history there's handfuls of small moments leading to bigger ones and bigger ones. Technically the war started when Ned and Cersei couldn't come to an agreement about her kids heritage and that none of them were Roberts blood. In that moment Cersei decided to have Ned arrested and his men killed, officially sparking the war between North Stark Loyalists and the rest of the Kingdom. But you could look at several smaller moments before that and say they escalated that situation. Ultimately tho, Neds desire to do what was right ultimately led to war that probably could've been averted. It is of course escalation and each step can be judged differently. When Ned told Cersei what he knew he was burning bridges, giving his opponent reasons never to trust him again. When he called Joffrey illegitimate in the throne room, he was crossing another point of no return, making a state secret public. This was no longer a private affair, in this moment he had planted the seed for strife in a much larger scale. He knew and accepted it. When Cersei had him arrested, she was reacting to Ned's order given to arrest her and doing the only sensible thing in declaring his accusation a lie. The moment before, she had given him the chance to accept the new king and return home safely. She was working for peace when Ned was pushing for war. He had already made a similar step before when he sent a letter to Stannis. He knew he was starting a war with this letter. Cersei was the one saying "let's find an agreement" when Ned was coming with armed men to take her and her son prisoners. Ned had already called Tywin to answer or be branded a traitor. He knew he was starting a war and didn't mind. Ned Stark was an asshole. I think Lord Stark was bound by duties. It was one of the biggest vows of westeros to be loyal and he was the king's Hand. if Lady Catelyn wouldn't have taken such a stupid and thoughtless decision then Ned Stark would have been in a better situation to get rid of Lannisters.
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