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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Nov 12, 2018 10:34:02 GMT
In Wagner's " Ring des Nibelungen" ("The Ring of the Dwarf"), derived but very much adapted from old Norse mythology, the 19th century composer tells how the old race of the gods comes to an end through the mischiefs of a race of greedy dwarves, corrupting otherwise decent, normal people. He also tells that power and material wealth are obtained by renouncing love. These same themes, although not in such an obvious way, are running through GRRM's Song of Ice and Fire and some of its characters match so well it is hard to believe in a coincidence. The association of materialistic, industrious greed with dwarves is not new to the fantasy audience. Tolkien has done it in a rather endearing, innocent way. Wagner is less friendly and meant his portrayal to show the opposition of the simple, honest, natural Germanic people facing the in his eyes corrupting, false, businesslike, materialistic influence of Jews in the 19th century society he witnessed. It was an over-simplification as well as a blanket judgement but he rode along with it and wrote at length about it (see his pamphlet entitled " Judaism in Music" as a prime example). As an artist dependent on paying audiences, he despised anything that asked him to bend his creation to satisfy the masses and therefore disliked commerce and capitalism. He worked all his life to befriend rich or powerful people who could free him of commercial constraints, wished to impose his artistic views on the world rather than offer them to free choice. He became friend with the king of Bavaria and sought support from Bismarck. He was basically a Stark supporter who despised Lannisters. He liked dogs too.  The Ring starts with a dwarf, Alberich (Tywin Lannister or maybe Lann the Clever), stealing gold from the Rhine and renouncing love in order to be able to turn it into an instrument of power symbolised by a ring. This is a condemnation of capitalism, right there. Parallel to this. Wotan, the father god, has two giants build Walhalla for him. He has promised to pay them with Freia, goddess of love. Taunted by his wife for this and learning of Alberich's new acquired wealth, Wotan goes to him, takes his gold, his ring and his curse and pays the giants with it (but keeps the curse). One of the giants kills the other and keeps everything. Walhalla can be seen as a parallel to the Red Keep and Wotan as Aegon the Conqueror. His children will commit incest and give birth to Siegfried who will be raised by another dwarf, unknowing of his parentage (Jon Snow). He's not very smart but strong, straightforward and expresses an instinctive despite for his adoptive father of a dwarf. Siegfried will later kill the remaining giant and take the ring from him. He will then meet and fall in love with Brünnhilde, a daughter of Wotan and therefore his aunt (Daenerys). She rides a flying horse shouting silly things ("hoyotoho" - if you thought "dracarys" was ridiculous…). In the final part of the story (each part goes for more than three hours, only the prologue takes two), Siegfried is manipulated then killed by another dwarf, Alberich's son (Hagen = Tyrion), causing Brünnhilde to burn Walhalla and destroy herself and the gods, leaving the people to their own device. Seeing how the show has consistently set up all noble families for extinction, either killing them off or leaving them unmarried, it is easy to make a parallel between Wagner's gods and GRRM's nobility. The burning of the Red Keep would be equivalent to that of Walhalla, leaving the likes of Sam or Davos to collect the pieces. What remains as well is the collectivist message. GRRM's work might not have the nationalistic flavour of Wagner's but they both strongly deprecate the pursuit of self-interest to the benefit of collective identity and goals. We'll have to see how much GRRM decided to borrow from this. He must think his readers are not opera fans (not that I am, really, but I heard all of Wagner). Besides, dogs stink  |
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Post by jon snow loves sansa on Nov 13, 2018 15:41:50 GMT
In Wagner's " Ring des Nibelungen" ("The Ring of the Dwarf"), derived but very much adapted from old Norse mythology, the 19th century composer tells how the old race of the gods comes to an end through the mischiefs of a race of greedy dwarves, corrupting otherwise decent, normal people. He also tells that power and material wealth are obtained by renouncing love. These same themes, although not in such an obvious way, are running through GRRM's Song of Ice and Fire and some of its characters match so well it is hard to believe in a coincidence. The association of materialistic, industrious greed with dwarves is not new to the fantasy audience. Tolkien has done it in a rather endearing, innocent way. Wagner is less friendly and meant his portrayal to show the opposition of the simple, honest, natural Germanic people facing the in his eyes corrupting, false, businesslike, materialistic influence of Jews in the 19th century society he witnessed. It was an over-simplification as well as a blanket judgement but he rode along with it and wrote at length about it (see his pamphlet entitled " Judaism in Music" as a prime example). As an artist dependent on paying audiences, he despised anything that asked him to bend his creation to satisfy the masses and therefore disliked commerce and capitalism. He worked all his life to befriend rich or powerful people who could free him of commercial constraints, wished to impose his artistic views on the world rather than offer them to free choice. He became friend with the king of Bavaria and sought support from Bismarck. He was basically a Stark supporter who despised Lannisters. He liked dogs too. The Ring starts with a dwarf, Alberich (Tywin Lannister or maybe Lann the Clever), stealing gold from the Rhine and renouncing love in order to be able to turn it into an instrument of power symbolised by a ring. This is a condemnation of capitalism, right there. Parallel to this. Wotan, the father god, has two giants build Walhalla for him. He has promised to pay them with Freia, goddess of love. Taunted by his wife for this and learning of Alberich's new acquired wealth, Wotan goes to him, takes his gold, his ring and his curse and pays the giants with it (but keeps the curse). One of the giants kills the other and keeps everything. Walhalla can be seen as a parallel to the Red Keep and Wotan as Aegon the Conqueror. His children will commit incest and give birth to Siegfried who will be raised by another dwarf, unknowing of his parentage (Jon Snow). He's not very smart but strong, straightforward and expresses an instinctive despite for his adoptive father of a dwarf. Siegfried will later kill the remaining giant and take the ring from him. He will then meet and fall in love with Brünnhilde, a daughter of Wotan and therefore his aunt (Daenerys). She rides a flying horse shouting silly things ("hoyotoho" - if you thought "dracarys" was ridiculous…). In the final part of the story (each part goes for more than three hours, only the prologue takes two), Siegfried is manipulated then killed by another dwarf, Alberich's son (Hagen = Tyrion), causing Brünnhilde to burn Walhalla and destroy herself and the gods, leaving the people to their own device. Seeing how the show has consistently set up all noble families for extinction, either killing them off or leaving them unmarried, it is easy to make a parallel between Wagner's gods and GRRM's nobility. The burning of the Red Keep would be equivalent to that of Walhalla, leaving the likes of Sam or Davos to collect the pieces. What remains as well is the collectivist message. GRRM's work might not have the nationalistic flavour of Wagner's but they both strongly deprecate the pursuit of self-interest to the benefit of collective identity and goals. We'll have to see how much GRRM decided to borrow from this. He must think his readers are not opera fans (not that I am, really, but I heard all of Wagner). Besides, dogs stink Leo love all the stories you post and this one really does have parallels to GOT except jon doesnt love dany  but dany loves him i think GRMM took inspiration from this and British history - tyrion manipulated jon once already i do see it happening again unless sansa steps in and talks some senses to jon ,tyrion knows that sansa is smarter than she is letting on ( his own words) it owuld be so crazy if tyrion betrays or kills jon . |
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Nov 13, 2018 16:41:47 GMT
Leo love all the stories you post and this one really does have parallels to GOT except jon doesnt love dany but dany loves him i think GRMM took inspiration from this and British history - tyrion manipulated jon once already i do see it happening again unless sansa steps in and talks some senses to jon ,tyrion knows that sansa is smarter than she is letting on ( his own words) it owuld be so crazy if tyrion betrays or kills jon . Siegfried has forgotten Brünnhilde in the final part of Wagner's Ring but she remains mad with love. There are significant differences, of course and I don't think Tyrion will be made to kill Jon, yet everyone already suspects he will change side again and therefore betray Daenerys. The pragmatic, cynical Lannister (Wagner's race of dwarves) will abandon the elevated idealist but I doubt he will ever be a proud member of his family again. There is another set of parallels: Sansa is Freia, the young fair goddess promised in payment, first to Robert then to the Boltons, except this time they do get her. One of the Boltons kills the other and keeps Sansa. Jon then fights him and finalises Sansa's deliverance like Siegfried kills the giant and takes the ring back. In the books, there is a dream of Sansa slaying a giant and she is the one who kills Ramsay in the show. In Wagner's Ring, one of the giants is murdered by the other because he refuses Wotan's offer of gold to keep Freia. Some of this "giant" could be seen in Littlefinger's behaviour while the other giant is in both Boltons, who only want her name for power.. Sansa has become the ring of power. She always was, her name was of political value to the Boltons and to the Lannisters before them. She might well remain the key to the power struggle until the end. Now I just hope Daenerys will not throw her into the fire or into the river In Wagner's work, the ring returns to the Rhine at the very end. In symbolic terms it would mean that Sansa loses her status as a bargaining chip. She might no longer be the Lady of anything if Winterfell and the North are covered under an ice sheet. Or the parallel will stop there and she will be Elizabeth I, the second Queen Regnant. |
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Post by jon snow loves sansa on Nov 13, 2018 17:47:24 GMT
Leo love all the stories you post and this one really does have parallels to GOT except jon doesnt love dany but dany loves him i think GRMM took inspiration from this and British history - tyrion manipulated jon once already i do see it happening again unless sansa steps in and talks some senses to jon ,tyrion knows that sansa is smarter than she is letting on ( his own words) it owuld be so crazy if tyrion betrays or kills jon . Siegfried has forgotten Brünnhilde in the final part of Wagner's Ring but she remains mad with love. There are significant differences, of course and I don't think Tyrion will be made to kill Jon, yet everyone already suspects he will change side again and therefore betray Daenerys. The pragmatic, cynical Lannister (Wagner's race of dwarves) will abandon the elevated idealist but I doubt he will ever be a proud member of his family again. There is another set of parallels: Sansa is Freia, the young fair goddess promised in payment, first to Robert then to the Boltons, except this time they do get her. One of the Boltons kills the other and keeps Sansa. Jon then fights him and finalises Sansa's deliverance like Siegfried kills the giant and takes the ring back. In the books, there is a dream of Sansa slaying a giant and she is the one who kills Ramsay in the show. In Wagner's Ring, one of the giants is murdered by the other because he refuses Wotan's offer of gold to keep Freia. Some of this "giant" could be seen in Littlefinger's behaviour while the other giant is in both Boltons, who only want her name for power.. Sansa has become the ring of power. She always was, her name was of political value to the Boltons and to the Lannisters before them. She might well remain the key to the power struggle until the end. Now I just hope Daenerys will not throw her into the fire or into the river In Wagner's work, the ring returns to the Rhine at the very end. In symbolic terms it would mean that Sansa loses her status as a bargaining chip. She might no longer be the Lady of anything if Winterfell and the North are covered under an ice sheet. Or the parallel will stop there and she will be Elizabeth I, the second Queen Regnant. wow leo if this is true you will be the one you guessed it right because the parallels to this story are amazing looks like GRMM COPIED A lot of it , im surprised no one else found this out , yes i think dany will be mad for sure , i think she will get rejected and this will drive her into madness doing something unthinkable, DANY IS NOT USED GETTING REJECTED BY MEN, maybe this is why tyrion gets executed? instead of betraying daenyrys lets assume he does stand by her side and all the wacky things she does, dany gets rejected she gets mad flys her dragon over KL burns a lot people she eventually gets killed but not before killing many , so someone would need to get punished for her acts? who else? tyrion her confident, could go this way too dont forget the last scenes filmed at dragonpit in spain or croatia emilia calrke is missing was not there. |
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Nov 14, 2018 6:37:08 GMT
wow leo if this is true you will be the one you guessed it right because the parallels to this story are amazing looks like GRMM COPIED A lot of it , im surprised no one else found this out , yes i think dany will be mad for sure , i think she will get rejected and this will drive her into madness doing something unthinkable, DANY IS NOT USED GETTING REJECTED BY MEN, maybe this is why tyrion gets executed? instead of betraying daenyrys lets assume he does stand by her side and all the wacky things she does, dany gets rejected she gets mad flys her dragon over KL burns a lot people she eventually gets killed but not before killing many , so someone would need to get punished for her acts? who else? tyrion her confident, could go this way too dont forget the last scenes filmed at dragonpit in spain or croatia emilia calrke is missing was not there. Even if GRRM copied Wagner, it doesn't mean he will have his story end the same way. Wagner had a political agenda and stuffed his works with "messages". This is not interpretation, he openly says so in his letters. I read them, some of them. He has sentences that go for half a page GRRM has stated not to have such intentions so what remains is the expression of his convictions and personality without an active point making character. I believe he is out to present power and war as detrimental in any situation, in the hands of anyone no matter their intentions. This is why he will have the "good guys" fail (Robb Stark), make terrible mistakes (Jon Snow) or change into "bad guys" (Daenerys) which is the usual "power corrupts" trope. I say power comes to the corruptible because I'm not an idealistic fool. This is where a hereditary monarchy has an advantage: it keeps Littlefingers away or at least down to minister level. Daenerys is utterly corrupt. She has no other principle than "what is good for me is good". She stole slaves under pretence of freeing them then uses them for the very purpose they were enslaved and trained. It is both interesting and worrying to see how dumb masses who cheered at tyrants last century keep falling in love with them when they utter the lies they wish to hear. The popularity of Daenerys is a bitter lesson. Tyrion's execution, if it happens at the order of someone else than Cersei, will have the same character. Alleged "good guys" killing or betraying each other. It would bring us back to the greying out of characters, which appears to be one of GRRM's other strong principles (stupid apologetic leftard fantasy). Audiences massively failed to realise that the "bad guys" they were presented with at the outset, the Lannisters, were not. Maybe having their "good guys" turn bad will work better? Probably not, actually. The idiots will only end up saying the ending was terrible but they'll have paid for HBO and collected all the figurines upfront, so fuck them. GRRM claims to be a feminist too, so he could put a woman in charge but I understand he is more an egalitarian than a feminist, the kind who would say " women deserve the same respect" rather than "women are better". So maybe he'll be happy showing that women can be just as terrible as men and it seems the show is going that way too. |
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shinnickneth
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@shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Nov 14, 2018 21:54:40 GMT
wow leo if this is true you will be the one you guessed it right because the parallels to this story are amazing looks like GRMM COPIED A lot of it , im surprised no one else found this out , yes i think dany will be mad for sure , i think she will get rejected and this will drive her into madness doing something unthinkable, DANY IS NOT USED GETTING REJECTED BY MEN, maybe this is why tyrion gets executed? instead of betraying daenyrys lets assume he does stand by her side and all the wacky things she does, dany gets rejected she gets mad flys her dragon over KL burns a lot people she eventually gets killed but not before killing many , so someone would need to get punished for her acts? who else? tyrion her confident, could go this way too dont forget the last scenes filmed at dragonpit in spain or croatia emilia calrke is missing was not there. Dammit...I wish I hadn't read that...ok everyone, I'm out of here until the final season is over. Adios!  |
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Post by jon snow loves sansa on Nov 14, 2018 22:46:18 GMT
wow leo if this is true you will be the one you guessed it right because the parallels to this story are amazing looks like GRMM COPIED A lot of it , im surprised no one else found this out , yes i think dany will be mad for sure , i think she will get rejected and this will drive her into madness doing something unthinkable, DANY IS NOT USED GETTING REJECTED BY MEN, maybe this is why tyrion gets executed? instead of betraying daenyrys lets assume he does stand by her side and all the wacky things she does, dany gets rejected she gets mad flys her dragon over KL burns a lot people she eventually gets killed but not before killing many , so someone would need to get punished for her acts? who else? tyrion her confident, could go this way too dont forget the last scenes filmed at dragonpit in spain or croatia emilia calrke is missing was not there. Dammit...I wish I hadn't read that...ok everyone, I'm out of here until the final season is over. Adios! I feel so bad so sorry for posting anything i upset-ed you please dont go will put spoilers next time |
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Post by jon snow loves sansa on Nov 14, 2018 22:50:51 GMT
wow leo if this is true you will be the one you guessed it right because the parallels to this story are amazing looks like GRMM COPIED A lot of it , im surprised no one else found this out , yes i think dany will be mad for sure , i think she will get rejected and this will drive her into madness doing something unthinkable, DANY IS NOT USED GETTING REJECTED BY MEN, maybe this is why tyrion gets executed? instead of betraying daenyrys lets assume he does stand by her side and all the wacky things she does, dany gets rejected she gets mad flys her dragon over KL burns a lot people she eventually gets killed but not before killing many , so someone would need to get punished for her acts? who else? tyrion her confident, could go this way too dont forget the last scenes filmed at dragonpit in spain or croatia emilia calrke is missing was not there. Even if GRRM copied Wagner, it doesn't mean he will have his story end the same way. Wagner had a political agenda and stuffed his works with "messages". This is not interpretation, he openly says so in his letters. I read them, some of them. He has sentences that go for half a page GRRM has stated not to have such intentions so what remains is the expression of his convictions and personality without an active point making character. I believe he is out to present power and war as detrimental in any situation, in the hands of anyone no matter their intentions. This is why he will have the "good guys" fail (Robb Stark), make terrible mistakes (Jon Snow) or change into "bad guys" (Daenerys) which is the usual "power corrupts" trope. I say power comes to the corruptible because I'm not an idealistic fool. This is where a hereditary monarchy has an advantage: it keeps Littlefingers away or at least down to minister level. Daenerys is utterly corrupt. She has no other principle than "what is good for me is good". She stole slaves under pretence of freeing them then uses them for the very purpose they were enslaved and trained. It is both interesting and worrying to see how dumb masses who cheered at tyrants last century keep falling in love with them when they utter the lies they wish to hear. The popularity of Daenerys is a bitter lesson. Tyrion's execution, if it happens at the order of someone else than Cersei, will have the same character. Alleged "good guys" killing or betraying each other. It would bring us back to the greying out of characters, which appears to be one of GRRM's other strong principles (stupid apologetic leftard fantasy). Audiences massively failed to realise that the "bad guys" they were presented with at the outset, the Lannisters, were not. Maybe having their "good guys" turn bad will work better? Probably not, actually. The idiots will only end up saying the ending was terrible but they'll have paid for HBO and collected all the figurines upfront, so fuck them. GRRM claims to be a feminist too, so he could put a woman in charge but I understand he is more an egalitarian than a feminist, the kind who would say " women deserve the same respect" rather than "women are better". So maybe he'll be happy showing that women can be just as terrible as men and it seems the show is going that way too. i think we scared our fellow poster friend away with our theories  i agree with you maybe he wont end it same way but i think if tyrions rumor/spoiler is true would be because he gets punished for someone elses mistakes , if cercei still in power would she do it ? i think if she wanted her brother dead she had many opportunities to do so and she didnt |
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Nov 15, 2018 1:33:24 GMT
if cercei still in power would she do it ? i think if she wanted her brother dead she had many opportunities to do so and she didnt She wanted Tyrion dead for killing Joffrey. Now she knows he didn't so it's a new game but he did kill Tywin. There is further justification and this one is real. It wasn't even for self-preservation. Maybe justice will triumph after all  |
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Post by jon snow loves sansa on Nov 15, 2018 21:18:11 GMT
if cercei still in power would she do it ? i think if she wanted her brother dead she had many opportunities to do so and she didnt She wanted Tyrion dead for killing Joffrey. Now she knows he didn't so it's a new game but he did kill Tywin. There is further justification and this one is real. It wasn't even for self-preservation. Maybe justice will triumph after all if cersei lives even if she is captured or de-throned etc ( if theories of jonerys rulling together that is are true etc..).. she is pregnant and doubt anyone would execute a pregnant woman, that leaves tyrion and i doubt very much dany or jon would execute tyrion unless something really really bad happens with cersei /tyrion allliance , and if the cersei miscarriage rumors are true why would she tell anyone? no one would know if she does, so she wont be executed , everyone thinks arya will kill her but if cersei captures sansa which i think it will happen since lannister army are heading north ,while dany/jon fighting the zombies winterfell gets attacked sansa gets captured, ,, arya wont do anythying, jon wont let her jeopardize sanas life, maybe arya is meant to die in her sisters place like sansas wolf died for nymeria (aryas wolf) i can see a sacrifice like that from arya and would surprise some fans since both sisters never really got along and they always say arya hates sansa, they will be shocked that arya would give her life for hers ,..so im starting to believe less and less the theory of tyrion betraying dany/jon and jon wont ever execute him HOWEVER cersei might makes more sense for dany to mess up things really bad letting personal feelings get in the way she does something mad and tyrion pays the price for it , he will be on trial again ,this will be his third time and you know what they all say 3rd is the charm , cersei will be queen she will bargain sansa this is the deal offer i think she will offer jon ,give him back sansa , and give up claim to the throne, for as long as cersei lives , jon and sansa can rule the north together , jon really doesnt like KL , they made a point of showing that on the show couple times,finding out he is a targaryen wont magically make him love KL or south more , so i think he will pass up his right to the throne to cersei so he can save sansa, sansa/jon are ned/catelyn 2.0 |
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i agree with you maybe he wont end it same way but i think if tyrions rumor/spoiler is true would be because he gets punished for someone elses mistakes , if cercei still in power would she do it ? i think if she wanted her brother dead she had many opportunities to do so and she didnt