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Post by Aj_June on Nov 26, 2018 16:25:35 GMT
I'm in the materialist camp. The physical world is as real as we perceive it to be. As soon as there's evidence of a non-physical soul or anything else I'm willing to consider a dualist stance, but it doesn't look too likely that that will happen. I am not a strict reductionist however, and think that emergent behavior plays an important role in the world, and in particular our minds. It's important to note that the word 'materialist' seems to be misunderstood by a great number of people. I only got the meaning after this thread. Earlier I would see it used in sentences such as "Why we're so Materialistic, even if we can't be ever satisfied?".
I never thought of seeing on the lines of materialism as you and others have pointed out. The one thing I can say is that there is no proof of anything other than what materialists say exists. May be certain people can claim to have experiences that are of spiritual nature but those experiences are not strong enough evidence and almost impossible to prove. Just to point I have never had any experiences and live totally in this world assuming this world is real.
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Post by goz on Nov 26, 2018 20:20:21 GMT
It is what it is. We are lucky to experience it. It is not permanent for individuals, though families endure through passed on DNA. It would be a shame if humans stuffed it irreparably so that other humans cannot enjoy 'it'! I have no problems with your views. Though it is interesting to note how different individuals have different take on life. Good that you consider yourself lucky to experience life. Micee thought it was a tragedy and even considered giving birth as despicable. Well, essentially, as discussed by others on here I am pretty much a 'materialist'. The only types of 'spiritualism' which come into my life are the issues around If you look at the chances of actually being born (sperm numbers, conception, miscarrying, possible health issues, quality of life etc etc etc ) and leading a half way decent life, unlike mine which has for the most part been extremely fortunate...it is easy to see how some people ascribe a 'supernatural meaning' to this. I still think in material terms, of the chances that have been in my favur of 'natural forces' and I do, being a sentient human, feel fortunate. It is this meaning that we all talk and think about, with some ascribing it to 'god', for want of a better explanation of perhaps an unknowable subject. Why are we here? In evolutionary terms we know HOW we are here but the why and why I, for example wasn't killed in the bad car accident I had in 1986 when others are, remains an insoluble conundrum to me. so I just remain grateful and try and make the best of my existence and of those around me that I can help.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2018 11:32:08 GMT
Life : Nature's way of keeping meat fresh.
I don't subscribe to any particular philosophy or political worldview. I believe that science is the best method we have for determining objective truth, but I'm open to any other method if it can be shown to distinguish between the true and the not true. Religion fails that test.
My guiding principle in life is to avoid harming others unnecessarily where possible. I try to be the best person I can be.
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Post by Aj_June on Nov 27, 2018 11:37:45 GMT
I'm certain there are many different reasons that people are apatheists. I do not suppose laziness is the main one. They probably just have different priorities. They have enough problems with obvious solutions of more and less difficulty and prefer to spend time on those rather than pondering problems with no obvious solutions. As you mentioned, obtaining food can be time consuming. I would call that practical. If other time is not readily available many people use their free time to ponder problems with no immediately obvious solutions. Some people have more free time than others. Most people have at least one day a week off. I suspect that a main reason theism has declined in popularity is the widespread misunderstanding of science. Large numbers of people who are not very good at modern science believe it already has solved problems it has not, and believe it can solve other problems it never will. I would call those people misinformed. Many people with little access to higher education simply follow some crowd or other. A very large crowd is more fond of science than capable of it Another significant reason theism has declined is that it is politically expedient to ignore the uncertainties imposed by such remote agencies as are found in religions. Especially forceful people want a more immediate address of problems. That of course is not what many on this board think. Instead they think the "religious" are the especially forceful ones. Many often claim to be motivated by "science" when it is obvious they are more concerned with the political ramifications. If I remember correctly, you have said in the past that you have never had any experience that you can say as revelation to you by God. So given the lack of any direct evidence, how sure are you of the existence of any spirit beyond what is made up of material world? Are you open to possibility that there is no God/self/soul?
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Post by Aj_June on Nov 27, 2018 11:42:47 GMT
Life : Nature's way of keeping meat fresh. I don't subscribe to any particular philosophy or political worldview. I believe that science is the best method we have for determining objective truth, but I'm open to any other method if it can be shown to distinguish between the true and the not true. Religion fails that test. My guiding principle in life is to avoid harming others unnecessarily where possible. I try to be the best person I can be. I like the fact that you do not adhere to any political viewpoint. I have seen that even among the non-religious when people follow a particular viewpoint they tend to try to fit their view according to their political beliefs. Which is a bad thing in many cases.
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Post by Arlon10 on Nov 27, 2018 11:55:50 GMT
I'm certain there are many different reasons that people are apatheists. I do not suppose laziness is the main one. They probably just have different priorities. They have enough problems with obvious solutions of more and less difficulty and prefer to spend time on those rather than pondering problems with no obvious solutions. As you mentioned, obtaining food can be time consuming. I would call that practical. If other time is not readily available many people use their free time to ponder problems with no immediately obvious solutions. Some people have more free time than others. Most people have at least one day a week off. I suspect that a main reason theism has declined in popularity is the widespread misunderstanding of science. Large numbers of people who are not very good at modern science believe it already has solved problems it has not, and believe it can solve other problems it never will. I would call those people misinformed. Many people with little access to higher education simply follow some crowd or other. A very large crowd is more fond of science than capable of it Another significant reason theism has declined is that it is politically expedient to ignore the uncertainties imposed by such remote agencies as are found in religions. Especially forceful people want a more immediate address of problems. That of course is not what many on this board think. Instead they think the "religious" are the especially forceful ones. Many often claim to be motivated by "science" when it is obvious they are more concerned with the political ramifications. If I remember correctly, you have said in the past that you have never had any experience that you can say as revelation to you by God. So given the lack of any direct evidence, how sure are you of the existence of any spirit beyond what is made up of material world? Are you open to possibility that there is no God/self/soul? I still haven't had any experiences myself that violate the laws of physics. So far all my communications have been fully explained by physics or my own subconscious. However I have long felt and believed that I am not this body, rather a soul present in it. It is a perception (if not misperception) that is its own evidence. I do not now have nor ever had a very "closed" mind. I am fully aware of the possibility I could be in error and constantly retest my positions. I see no merit in concluding there is no god and usually see improper motivations in people who propose such a notion as I described in my comments above.
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Post by Arlon10 on Nov 27, 2018 12:18:17 GMT
Life : Nature's way of keeping meat fresh. I don't subscribe to any particular philosophy or political worldview. I believe that science is the best method we have for determining objective truth, but I'm open to any other method if it can be shown to distinguish between the true and the not true. Religion fails that test. My guiding principle in life is to avoid harming others unnecessarily where possible. I try to be the best person I can be. Among my favorites are "the greatest good for the greatest number," expressed in Bentham's Utilitarianism. I also like ""it harm none, do what ye will," also known as the "Wiccan Rede," and roughly your view above. However, as "logical and scientific" as those and other simple formulations are, they fail to serve society. Surprise! As it turns out there can be sharp disagreement over what does and does not harm or serve people. The overwhelming majority, probably over 95%, of people believe their political ideas are the way to do the least harm and the most good, and yet ... ... they are diametrically opposed to each other! Obviously then such simple formulations are inadequate to solve real problems in society. That is because "science" is inadequate to address issues in society. Science can only help solve problems where people agree what the problem is.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2018 13:08:09 GMT
Life : Nature's way of keeping meat fresh. I don't subscribe to any particular philosophy or political worldview. I believe that science is the best method we have for determining objective truth, but I'm open to any other method if it can be shown to distinguish between the true and the not true. Religion fails that test. My guiding principle in life is to avoid harming others unnecessarily where possible. I try to be the best person I can be. I like the fact that you do not adhere to any political viewpoint. I have seen that even among the non-religious when people follow a particular viewpoint they tend to try to fit their view according to their political beliefs. Which is a bad thing in many cases. Agreed.
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Post by Arlon10 on Nov 27, 2018 13:29:36 GMT
I like the fact that you do not adhere to any political viewpoint. I have seen that even among the non-religious when people follow a particular viewpoint they tend to try to fit their view according to their political beliefs. Which is a bad thing in many cases. Agreed. But can you play a fiddle as well as Nero?
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Post by Catman on Nov 27, 2018 14:53:06 GMT
Did you know Sweet gave Nero his very first fiddle?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2018 15:24:40 GMT
Did you know Sweet gave Nero his very first fiddle? Well after all he is the heart of swing, and the twist and shout.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Nov 27, 2018 15:49:06 GMT
Life : Nature's way of keeping meat fresh. I don't subscribe to any particular philosophy or political worldview. I believe that science is the best method we have for determining objective truth, but I'm open to any other method if it can be shown to distinguish between the true and the not true. Religion fails that test. My guiding principle in life is to avoid harming others unnecessarily where possible. I try to be the best person I can be.Essentially "The Golden Rule". Present in every religion that we know of, yet seldom adhered to; it seems non-religious people honor it more often than religious people, in my experience of 65 years, being first a theist, then an atheist. I, too, believe that science is the best method we have for determining objective truth, and that puts me in the materialist camp along with several others on this board. I understand how we evolved, and attach no special 'significance' to our existence that elevates humans over animals; we have simply evolved with a larger brain that can process more abstract thought. I live in a way that harms no sentient being, and try to alleviate suffering in the here-and-now. In my OPINION, religion causes as much suffering as it claims to alleviate, especially given the concept of an afterlife. And the divisive aspect of religion can cause much suffering. Politics is a necessity to maintain civilization, and its divisive aspect can, too, cause much suffering, but for humans to co-exist there must be some kind of structure to it. I hope we can evolve past the need for 'tribalism'; something that was necessary for humans to survive, but has now become counterproductive. Just my two cents worth...
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Post by thefleetsin on Nov 27, 2018 15:56:15 GMT
then you are indeed pandering to the pious. as they placate their platitudes on platforms of perforated pontifications. all the while sinking the planet into an even deeper shyt hole of homogenized castigation's. but you wouldn't know that. because everyone seems to have the right to suck off their particular god no matter who gets spewed in the face with it. Not gonna be driven by American values of us vs them. Won't hold lifelong grudge against any community. Only with members I disagree. Have a nice day. yet you see no issue with religions perpetuating thousand year old grudges toward humanity at large. throwing around good vs evil like they were offing day old popcorn at a dodgers game.
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Post by Aj_June on Nov 27, 2018 16:14:29 GMT
Not gonna be driven by American values of us vs them. Won't hold lifelong grudge against any community. Only with members I disagree. Have a nice day. yet you see no issue with religions perpetuating thousand year old grudges toward humanity at large. throwing around good vs evil like they were offing day old popcorn at a dodgers game. It's nice to make assumptions.
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Post by koskiewicz on Nov 27, 2018 17:32:47 GMT
reality, n. The dream of a mad philosopher. That which would remain in the cupel if one should assay a phantom. The nucleus of a vacuum. -Ambrose Bierce
"Life's not worth living, an that's the truth," Carelessly caroled the golden youth. In manhood still he maintained that view and held it more strongly the older he grew. When kicked by a jackass at eighty three, "Go fetch me a surgeon at once!" Cried he. -Han Soper
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Post by Lugh on Nov 27, 2018 19:52:22 GMT
Metaphysically I am an idealist of sorts. I'm sort of a "pragmatic materialist". I dont believe matter or atoms are really things outside of our mind but I recognize their usefulness conceptually. Just like numbers, they dont exist but are useful conceptually.
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Post by goz on Nov 27, 2018 19:53:10 GMT
leaning Life : Nature's way of keeping meat fresh. I don't subscribe to any particular philosophy or political worldview. I believe that science is the best method we have for determining objective truth, but I'm open to any other method if it can be shown to distinguish between the true and the not true. Religion fails that test. My guiding principle in life is to avoid harming others unnecessarily where possible. I try to be the best person I can be. I like the fact that you do not adhere to any political viewpoint. I have seen that even among the non-religious when people follow a particular viewpoint they tend to try to fit their view according to their political beliefs. Which is a bad thing in many cases. I think you are putting the cart before the horse. Personally, my political beliefs are solely based in the things which make up my worldview and general 'philosophy'. Things like materialism, pursuit of scientific knowledge towards 'truth' or at least a working model of the same, rigorous review of new information, scepticism of propaganda with an agenda that is against the above ( ie anti-intellectualism ) on the logical side ..and on the more philosophical side, humanism which is empathetic to all humans, ethics of fairness and equality amongst all people regardless of race sex age creed (unless thy are aggressively fundamentalist) a deep respect and love for the natural world including all creatures and the Australian ethos of 'a fair go for all'. Hence I tend to be a left leaning liberal socialist feminist agnostic atheist greenie. That is just the way it works.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Nov 27, 2018 19:58:02 GMT
Any solipsists on here? When I found out what that was, I thought it was one of the weirdest perceptions one could have of reality.
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Post by goz on Nov 27, 2018 20:32:26 GMT
Any solipsists on here? When I found out what that was, I thought it was one of the weirdest perceptions one could have of reality. No, thankfully my lumbar spine is in good order.
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Post by Aj_June on Nov 28, 2018 1:13:05 GMT
leaning I like the fact that you do not adhere to any political viewpoint. I have seen that even among the non-religious when people follow a particular viewpoint they tend to try to fit their view according to their political beliefs. Which is a bad thing in many cases. I think you are putting the cart before the horse. Personally, my political beliefs are solely based in the things which make up my worldview and general 'philosophy'. Things like materialism, pursuit of scientific knowledge towards 'truth' or at least a working model of the same, rigorous review of new information, scepticism of propaganda with an agenda that is against the above ( ie anti-intellectualism ) on the logical side ..and on the more philosophical side, humanism which is empathetic to all humans, ethics of fairness and equality amongst all people regardless of race sex age creed (unless thy are aggressively fundamentalist) a deep respect and love for the natural world including all creatures and the Australian ethos of 'a fair go for all'. Hence I tend to be a left leaning liberal socialist feminist agnostic atheist greenie. That is just the way it works. I am not talking about you in particular.
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