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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 13, 2017 18:11:21 GMT
On Paislene's advice, I'm copying a thread from "I Need to Know" on to here; it had been in the "I Need to Know" section of IMDb, and I didn't want to lose it. So I'm placing it here (in parts) as well; if there's anyone who has some information, I'd be greatly obliged. Here's my initial posting from IMDb, seemingly so many months ago: ______________________________ I'm sure somebody has posted about this before because it's seemingly such a big mystery (see www.soundtrackcollector.com/forum/displayquestion.php?topicid=7598, en.allexperts.com/q/Classic-Film-2786/Cole-Porter-Sleuth-movie.htm, and www.imdb.com/title/tt0069281/board/thread/10107549), so, if there is another thread about this, it would help me a great deal if someone can post a link to it. The mystery is that just about no one seems to know who sang three Cole Porter songs--"Just One of Those Things," "You Do Something to Me," and "Anything Goes"--in the movie Sleuth (1972). Here's a link to a video of Laurence Olivier's character dancing to them in a scene from the movie: www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_VVr8ScGOc. One would think that by this time someone would have some idea of who sang them, but the identity of the singer just seems a mystery despite some promising leads over the years, none of which have panned out. Even more curiously, there is no singer identified in the end credits, and the three songs did not appear on the movie's soundtrack. From what I could find, the last time that someone could look into this question was at the website "Soundtrack Collector" on March 5 of this year; the last poster stated that he had found "the exact song" of "Anything Goes" on Amazon Music for $1.29. After checking Amazon Music and looking through/previewing the many different versions of "Anything Goes," I was unable to find the song to which he referred and could not find the version from Sleuth. The poster immediately before him suggested that "You Do Something to Me" was on the soundtrack for Woody Allen's Magic in the Moonlight, but, after checking that, I discovered that that version was sung by Frank Luther for Leo Reisman's orchestra, a candidate considered since the beginning--and not the actual singer from Sleuth. The weird thing about the whole thing is that it seems so mysterious. Why should it be so difficult to find who sang three songs? Why wasn't the singer's name in the credits? Why didn't the soundtrack include the songs? My only guess--and I concede that this is far-fetched--is that it's on purpose. The film is all about tricks, games, mysteries, puzzles, etc., and, unlikely as it sounds, I wonder if director Joseph Mankiewicz and screenwriter Anthony Shaffer made this mysterious singer so hard to find on purpose. That is to say, I wonder if the versions were specially created for the film or put together from other recordings (somehow)--or that it's someone whom we wouldn't suspect of being a singer (someone suggested Michael Caine himself, though I very much doubt it). More likely, of course, no one ever thought that anyone would be trying so hard to find this guy--but that still leaves the above questions unanswered. I apologize for going on so long, but I did want to provide all the background that I could. Thank you all very much--it would be great if someone could finally put this old question to rest!
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 13, 2017 18:12:24 GMT
After figuring out that it is not actually Frank Luther's singing for Leo Reisman's orchestra, the IMDb forum member "WillEd," who helped me greatly, came to the conclusion that these were actually recordings made just for the movie. His theory was backed up by "MusicProf78," who posted the Leo Reisman/Frank Luther track, and "Lyncounion" at soundtrackcollector.com. D'après "Lyncounion":
""I'm pretty certain these are modern recordings.
"There are a number of giveaways, if you listen closely:
- The arrangements of "You Do Something to Me" and "Anything Goes" do not stylistically fit the big band music of the period in that they start with a vocal verse instead of an instrumental verse. More significantly, in "Anything Goes" there are multiple instrumental verses after the vocal verse, which very conveniently occur exactly when the characters in the film start talking. - The length of "You Do Something to Me" is barely over 2 minutes, short for a 78 of this style. - The acoustic bass, on all the numbers, is very loud and well defined in the mix. Recording technology was not sufficiently advanced in the 30s to capture a rich bass sound like this. - The snare fill played by the drummer at the beginning of "Anything Goes" (right after the bell rings), is uncharacteristic of the period. It's also quite loud and trebly, which wasn't easily captured in older recordings. - In the same song, in the first measure of the verse the guitar and bass play a figure with a strong backbeat that would sound more common in the rock era--rhythm sections didn't play like this in the 30's.
"I'm far from an expert on 1930's recordings or big-band music, but after listening to it on good headphones I think these are very well done fakes done by studio pros. I certainly could be wrong, but that so many people have been interested in this question and it hasn't been easily resolved makes it more likely that these vintage recordings don't actually exist. It's still a wonderful film."
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 13, 2017 18:13:00 GMT
And, amazingly enough, we're not done yet!
"WillEd" then argued that it could conceivably be '30s recordings, as unlikely as it seemed:
"Guess what? I found a singer who started in 1925 and it looks like in all his recordings he sings in what later became the standard. Short music into. Sings the song, short music break, then repeats the last two verses. I never heard of him until now, but he was very popular, so I think my theory before was correct. If a singer was popular enough, that is the way it went, but if the focus is the orchestra, the singer is second fiddle to that and has to wait until the orchestra starts before he gets to sing and usually does it fast, like so they can get back to the orchestra."
and
"It means it could be an old recording because the modern method was sometimes used then, but I still think they are modern recordings. My gut tells me they are not authentic from that period. The singer obviously is not someone famous and you still have the problem of three Cole Porter songs from the same singer and one of the songs is from the twenties while the other two are mid thirties and the orchestra is the same in all three. The two from the thirties could possibly be A and B sides on the same record. The twenties one is harder to explain."
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 13, 2017 18:13:27 GMT
And then I was able to find an e-mail address for someone who worked on the film, Graham Hartstone. Mr. Hartstone was kind enough to respond to my e-mail but could shed no light on the matter:
"I have had this enquiry before, a few years ago and I'm afraid I wasn't able to spread any light on this conundrum. I don't know if anyone is around who worked for Palomar Pictures - there may be a paper trail showing who either paid or paid for the vocalist.
"Sorry I can't be more help.
"Kind regards
"Graham."
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 13, 2017 18:13:43 GMT
OK, those are the major points that we made on the original IMDb. Maybe one or two sleuths here can start work on this puzzle too!
Thanks!
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paislene
Junior Member
@paislene
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Post by paislene on Feb 16, 2017 21:27:25 GMT
Salzmank , I'm throwing this name out there , and I may be wrong . The scene music from the youtube link certainly has a 1930's orchestral base (possibly 1940's but I don't think so!) . The singer I came across has definitely recorded Cole Porter songs , but I could find no lead to the specific songs . He is British and did sing during the 1930's and later , but had passed a few years before the movie - Bud Flanagan
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 17, 2017 3:28:39 GMT
Thanks for your reply, Paislene, but no, I don't think Flanagan is the one. I just listened to Flanagan's "Who Do You Think You're Kidding, Mr. Hitler?" on YouTube, and I've got to say he's got a a gravelly kind of a voice, if that makes any sense. (Too, Flanagan was a Vaudeville performer, not really any kind of a crooner.) The Sleuth singer's is far smoother and more melodious. The two closest matches I've found are (1) Al Bowlly and (2) Frank Luther. In fact, WillEd and I (on IMDb) originally thought it was Luther until we both realized there were slight differences between his voice and that of the Sleuth singer. (We had that opinion confirmed by a '30s music expert.) WillEd now thinks it was a modern singer impersonating Luther in particular. Thanks, though, for the help, and I hope my comments help you!
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 18, 2017 2:14:57 GMT
Bowlly was an outstanding singer. I probably first heard his "Love is the Sweetest Thing" in the '04 British television adaptation of Death on the Nile (part of the David Suchet television show), and I fell in love with the song there and then. One of my favorite '30s singers--and, unfortunately, not the Sleuth singer!
I was unfamiliar with Luther until WillEd brought him up; he was quite sure it was Luther for a while, and then he eventually realized it wasn't. (Like I said, we had that opinion confirmed by the YouTube poster who posted Luther's rendition of "You Do Something to Me.")
The director was Joseph L. Mankiewicz; the production company was a small outfit created by producer Morton Gottlieb, called Palomar Pictures. It was distributed by 20th Century Fox. As I wrote, I reached out to someone (Graham Hartstone) who worked in the sound unit on the movie, and even he didn't know. Unfortunately, the majority of the people who worked on the movie are not with us anymore. On IMDb, someone recommended that I reach out to Ben Mankiewicz, the TCM host (and nephew of director Joseph Mankiewicz) via Twitter; I doubt that he'd know, but I'm ready to try--except that I don't have a Twitter account! Does anyone know another way that I could reach out to him--or would anyone like to "Tweet" Mr. Mankiewicz?
Thanks again, Paislene.
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paislene
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@paislene
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Post by paislene on Feb 18, 2017 3:01:12 GMT
Well I came across Bud Flanagan when after viewing the Sleuth scene on youtube , I remembered his song 'Who do you think you're kidding..?!' , which was the theme song to Dad's Army . Flanagan was specifically asked to record this for the show by it's musical director , Jimmy Perry , in 1968 . The thought occurred to me , Bud Flanagan may have recorded some other songs from the period too . But I don't think so , but maybe a music researcher could look into that . Anyway , I did find a Cole Porter songlist with Bud singing in them - www.allmusic.com/album/the-songs-of-cole-porter-mw0001003332 .
And I came across Al Bowlly because he sings the theme song for one of my favorite British Series 'Goodnight Sweetheart' - www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkJIZvPYXTI .
It is quite easy to join Twitter , but getting people's attention there is quite another thing - nearly impossible .
Another avenue is to look into Sleuth's (1972) music director , John Addison . I don't believe those songs are modern studio reproductions , but are originals , probably from a music production archive in 1970's .
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 18, 2017 3:57:58 GMT
Not at all discounting your opinion, but may I ask why you think they're original?
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 18, 2017 15:55:19 GMT
Ah! Interesting.
I've got just about no musical knowledge, so there's no way I can say "yay" or "nay" on this issue; I ask because WillEd and Lyncounion (above) thought it was a studio recording.
Lyncounion:
"I'm pretty certain these are modern recordings.
"There are a number of giveaways, if you listen closely:
- The arrangements of "You Do Something to Me" and "Anything Goes" do not stylistically fit the big band music of the period in that they start with a vocal verse instead of an instrumental verse. More significantly, in "Anything Goes" there are multiple instrumental verses after the vocal verse, which very conveniently occur exactly when the characters in the film start talking. - The length of "You Do Something to Me" is barely over 2 minutes, short for a 78 of this style. - The acoustic bass, on all the numbers, is very loud and well defined in the mix. Recording technology was not sufficiently advanced in the 30s to capture a rich bass sound like this. - The snare fill played by the drummer at the beginning of "Anything Goes" (right after the bell rings), is uncharacteristic of the period. It's also quite loud and trebly, which wasn't easily captured in older recordings. - In the same song, in the first measure of the verse the guitar and bass play a figure with a strong backbeat that would sound more common in the rock era--rhythm sections didn't play like this in the 30's."
In many ways I would prefer it to be a '30s singer, but I became skeptical when, after so many years, it seemed nobody could find him!
Thanks for letting me know
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 18, 2017 21:56:58 GMT
Absolutely not discounting Lyncounion in any way--just getting a lot of different opinions. The point about the budget is interesting, and you are correct (I'm also quite sure a good chunk of the budget was spent on Sir Laurence's paycheck!), but I still lean towards the "made for the movie" idea.
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 20, 2017 18:14:31 GMT
Thanks for those, Paislene. Just so that you (and everyone else) know, I have tried a different tack in hunting for the answer. On " Soundtrack Collector," one of the posters--McNeal_182--went to the trouble of reaching out to the Cole Porter HQ in New York--which, like everything else in this mystery, resulted only in a dead end. Inspired by that, I (again) looked up composer John Addison's page on Wikipedia; Mr. Addison is no longer with us (indeed, I believe Graham Hartstone, whom I e-mailed, as noted above, may be the last still-living crew member, sadly), but he of course wrote the music for Sleuth. Well! What do I see? "Addison's collection of correspondence, scores, and studio recordings were donated to the Film Music Archives at Brigham Young University in 1994." So I went to the BYU Film Music Archives and saw advertised on the front page that it still has Addison's papers in its collection. I e-mailed the Archive's curator, James D'Arc, this morning. He still has yet to respond to me, but it's a step in the right direction, no?
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 21, 2017 19:05:55 GMT
As of 2:03 pm here on the East Coast, still no response from D'Arc. By the way, Paislene, I've taken your advice and reached out to IMDb about their Gary Hughes information. Will let you know if and when they get back to me too.
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 21, 2017 19:21:42 GMT
Just got word back from IMDb, coincidentally. Unfortunately, they basically told me (1) they don't know and (2) even if they did, because of privacy concerns they can't give out that information. I fear that, if ever I do get word back from D'Arc, he'll tell me the same thing.
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