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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2017 19:15:52 GMT
I disagree. If people weren't always rearing for a fight so much, they wouldn't take offense at the dumbest things. I can't comment one way or another on what went on behind the scenes, because I've heard too many conflicting reports. I disagree with that. I wasn't looking for any fight but still thought the scene was badly executed. Along with the primma nocta quip. For a guy who prided himself on his feminist views, those were two bad blows. I'd say the reason the fallout was so big was because of those views. People felt he should've known better. Like someone fighting for civil rights making a bad "colored" joke. He scripted an unintentionally bad scene. The only reports I've heard are about him not enjoying his experience with AoU. I'm sure he's probably mellowed out since, but his immediate reaction was an unpleasant one. He said he was done with them because of the interference. Still sounds like the Left needs to thicken that skin. Oh, boo-hoo, there's an off-color joke in a PG-13 rated movie. Whedon has stated he'd be interested in working with them again.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 30, 2017 19:16:34 GMT
I think getting a man to direct a female-led CBM is asking for trouble in general. Any little mistake in the direction taken with the character will be under especially heavy scrutiny because of it. As much as I can't stand this stupid misconception that there's a difference between male and female directors (which completely goes against the ideals of gender equality), they're better off not taking the risk by having a man direct a Batgirl movie. Actually, it doesn't. Equality does not mean exact duplicate. I'm equal in worth to, say, Michael Jordan. But I am in no way even close to being the same as him. We can be equal and different at the same time. They're not mutually exclusive. It's not a misconception to believe a female director would approach a female character from a different angle than a male director would. Or that a black director would see a black character differently from a white director. Or an Indian director. Or a gay director vs a straight director. It's embracing gender stereotypes to suggest that there's a fundamental difference between a female director and a male director. The point of feminism is to eliminate the concept of gender stereotypes and norms. Suggesting that a female-led movie should be directed by a woman is only reinforcing those kinds of stereotypes. Besides, imagine if someone suggested that only men should be alllowed to direct a Batman or Superman movie. That person would come across as a sexist prick, wouldn't they?
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 30, 2017 19:19:27 GMT
Nah. That's the same argument that's been made for decades anytime a particular group is fighting for a cause. It's not about thickening the skin. It's about being decent to people. And again, the shock was that it came from someone who'd prided himself on being a feminist. After all, I know several right wing women who were offended by that "monster" remark. Women don't exist only on the left side of politics.
Like I said, Whedon's mellowed out since. But the initial break was not on good terms.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2017 19:22:43 GMT
Nah. That's the same argument that's been made for decades anytime a particular group is fighting for a cause. It's not about thickening the skin. It's about being decent to people. And again, the shock was that it came from someone who'd prided himself on being a feminist. After all, I know several right wing women who were offended by that "monster" remark. Women don't exist only on the left side of politics. Like I said, Whedon's mellowed out since. But the initial break was not on good terms. And again, I don't see what the issue is. I'm for women's rights as anyone else and I wasn't offended by any of it. Besides, it's Tony Stark. Tony Stark is supposed to say inappropriate things. It's kind of his thing. He's an asshole. He's our asshole, but still an asshole. And I understood what Widow meant by "monster" because of all the previous characterization she's received. Those "red in my ledger" lines were pretty clear she's not proud of herself as a person.
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Post by brownstones on Mar 30, 2017 19:27:02 GMT
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 30, 2017 19:27:07 GMT
Actually, it doesn't. Equality does not mean exact duplicate. I'm equal in worth to, say, Michael Jordan. But I am in no way even close to being the same as him. We can be equal and different at the same time. They're not mutually exclusive. It's not a misconception to believe a female director would approach a female character from a different angle than a male director would. Or that a black director would see a black character differently from a white director. Or an Indian director. Or a gay director vs a straight director. It's embracing gender stereotypes to suggest that there's a fundamental difference between a female director and a male director. The point of feminism is to eliminate the concept of gender stereotypes and norms. Not at all. It's embracing growing up differently. A woman unquestionably has different experiences in life than a man does. Just as a black man would from a white man. A foreigner from a native. Etc. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging we're different. The real point of feminism is to not be oppressed simply for being female. I don't think anyone has suggested that. I'm not even saying it'd be better. But no doubt the direction would be different from a man's. Whether that means better or not would depend on the finished product.
Yes. Just as saying a only a white man can direct movies would be seen as racist. When the side that's been on top for a long time says only they can do something, that's oppressive. It's not the same. Which again, equality doesn't not mean everything is exactly the same.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 30, 2017 19:30:28 GMT
Nah. That's the same argument that's been made for decades anytime a particular group is fighting for a cause. It's not about thickening the skin. It's about being decent to people. And again, the shock was that it came from someone who'd prided himself on being a feminist. After all, I know several right wing women who were offended by that "monster" remark. Women don't exist only on the left side of politics. Like I said, Whedon's mellowed out since. But the initial break was not on good terms. And again, I don't see what the issue is. I'm for women's rights as anyone else and I wasn't offended by any of it. Besides, it's Tony Stark. Tony Stark is supposed to say inappropriate things. It's kind of his thing. He's an asshole. He's our asshole, but still an asshole. And I understood what Widow meant by "monster" because of all the previous characterization she's received. Those "red in my ledger" lines were pretty clear she's not proud of herself as a person. That's fine if you don't. Other people do. And yes, Tony said those things. Because of Whedon's writing. Which was also noticeable because the trailers had a completely different line that didn't involve sexual assault. And again, it's ok if you understood that. I do get that's what Whedon meant. That's not how it comes across. After all, right before she's says she's a monster, we get flashbacks and explanations of how she was sterilized. One segues into the other. Giving the impression she meant she's a monster because she can't have kids. Like I said, the scene was written wrong. She should've just focused on the assassinations she's carried out.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2017 19:34:34 GMT
And again, I don't see what the issue is. I'm for women's rights as anyone else and I wasn't offended by any of it. Besides, it's Tony Stark. Tony Stark is supposed to say inappropriate things. It's kind of his thing. He's an asshole. He's our asshole, but still an asshole. And I understood what Widow meant by "monster" because of all the previous characterization she's received. Those "red in my ledger" lines were pretty clear she's not proud of herself as a person. That's fine if you don't. Other people do. And yes, Tony said those things. Because of Whedon's writing. Which was also noticeable because the trailers had a completely different line that didn't involve sexual assault. And again, it's ok if you understood that. I do get that's what Whedon meant. That's not how it comes across. After all, right before she's says she's a monster, we get flashbacks and explanations of how she was sterilized. One segues into the other. Giving the impression she meant she's a monster because she can't have kids. Like I said, the scene was written wrong. She should've just focused on the assassinations she's carried out. Tony said a lot of inappropriate things in his own trilogy, too, so it's not like there wasn't a precedent for it by the time we got to AoU. Who in their right mind would think a 21st century mainstream movie would call a woman who can't have children "a monster?"
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 30, 2017 19:47:02 GMT
That's fine if you don't. Other people do. And yes, Tony said those things. Because of Whedon's writing. Which was also noticeable because the trailers had a completely different line that didn't involve sexual assault. And again, it's ok if you understood that. I do get that's what Whedon meant. That's not how it comes across. After all, right before she's says she's a monster, we get flashbacks and explanations of how she was sterilized. One segues into the other. Giving the impression she meant she's a monster because she can't have kids. Like I said, the scene was written wrong. She should've just focused on the assassinations she's carried out. Tony said a lot of inappropriate things in his own trilogy, too, so it's not like there wasn't a precedent for it by the time we got to AoU. Who in their right mind would think a 21st century mainstream movie would call a woman who can't have children "a monster?" Yes, he did. I don't think any of them implied rape though. There is definitely no precedent for that. Who in their right mind would write that way?
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 30, 2017 19:48:58 GMT
I think Whedon's more than proved his feminist credentials, though, right? I mean, he is responsible for Buffy the Vampire Slayer and has generally endorsed works that espouse tolerant views on social issues. He's also got an impeccable resume (well, in recent history) when it comes to super hero stuff. I think he'll do a good job on the Batgirl movie and that, if not, it won't be because of his gender. well he got in "trouble" for a quip in AoU and the whole Black Widow 'i'm a monster' line. When it comes to female superheroes, I have accepted the fact that people will eventually find something to complain about, regardless of how well done she is. To be fair, same can be said with male superheroes, but it seems exacerbated with female heroes.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2017 19:50:49 GMT
Tony said a lot of inappropriate things in his own trilogy, too, so it's not like there wasn't a precedent for it by the time we got to AoU. Who in their right mind would think a 21st century mainstream movie would call a woman who can't have children "a monster?" Yes, he did. I don't think any of them implied rape though. There is definitely no precedent for that. Who in their right mind would write that way? I give up. We're not going to see to eye-to-eye on this. I'm just not willing to get offended by a movie. A man who put two films into the Billion Dollar Club, apparently.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2017 19:52:31 GMT
well he got in "trouble" for a quip in AoU and the whole Black Widow 'i'm a monster' line. When it comes to female superheroes, I have accepted the fact that people will eventually find something to complain about, regardless of how well done she is. To be fair, same can be said with male superheroes, but it seems exacerbated with female heroes. Fandoms are a million times more judgmental of female characters in general. It's not just exclusive to superhero films. A male character can get away with murder as long as he's good-looking and still retain a huge female fanbase. But if a female character does ANYTHING remotely unkind, watch out!
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 30, 2017 19:55:21 GMT
Yes, he did. I don't think any of them implied rape though. There is definitely no precedent for that. Who in their right mind would write that way? I give up. We're not going to see to eye-to-eye on this. I'm just not willing to get offended by a movie. A man who put two films into the Billion Dollar Club, apparently. That's fine. No one is asking you to. But on the flip side, you can't tell people not to be offended by something they find distasteful.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 30, 2017 19:57:04 GMT
When it comes to female superheroes, I have accepted the fact that people will eventually find something to complain about, regardless of how well done she is. To be fair, same can be said with male superheroes, but it seems exacerbated with female heroes. Fandoms are a million times more judgmental of female characters in general. It's not just exclusive to superhero films. A male character can get away with murder as long as he's good-looking and still retain a huge female fanbase. But if a female character does ANYTHING remotely unkind, watch out! Yeah. That's a huge problem. Look at the fan outcry against Skylar White versus Walter White. Walter literally got away with murder and was loved. Skylar had the nerve to try and stop her husband from being a drug kingpin, and people lost their minds. Death threats were sent to the actress. Yikes.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2017 19:57:38 GMT
I give up. We're not going to see to eye-to-eye on this. I'm just not willing to get offended by a movie. A man who put two films into the Billion Dollar Club, apparently. That's fine. No one is asking you to. But on the flip side, you can't tell people not to be offended by something they find distasteful. I retain the right to express when I think a mountain is being made of a molehill. Whether anyone agrees or not is their decision.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 30, 2017 19:59:28 GMT
It's embracing gender stereotypes to suggest that there's a fundamental difference between a female director and a male director. The point of feminism is to eliminate the concept of gender stereotypes and norms. Not at all. It's embracing growing up differently. A woman unquestionably has different experiences in life than a man does. Just as a black man would from a white man. A foreigner from a native. Etc. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging we're different. The real point of feminism is to not be oppressed simply for being female. If this is your belief, then it would also fall into the same thinking that women are innately better at rearing children than men and men are innately better at logic, etc.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 30, 2017 20:08:51 GMT
Not at all. It's embracing growing up differently. A woman unquestionably has different experiences in life than a man does. Just as a black man would from a white man. A foreigner from a native. Etc. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging we're different. The real point of feminism is to not be oppressed simply for being female. If this is your belief, then it would also fall into the same thinking that women are innately better at rearing children than men and men are innately better at logic, etc. What does the research say? After all, we are still animals. Instincts are still in us, even with our higher functioning brains.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 30, 2017 20:09:31 GMT
That's fine. No one is asking you to. But on the flip side, you can't tell people not to be offended by something they find distasteful. I retain the right to express when I think a mountain is being made of a molehill. Whether anyone agrees or not is their decision. That's cool. And everyone else retains their right to say it's not a molehill. I don't begrudge people who aren't offended. Not everyone is by the same things.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 30, 2017 21:12:52 GMT
If this is your belief, then it would also fall into the same thinking that women are innately better at rearing children than men and men are innately better at logic, etc. What does the research say? After all, we are still animals. Instincts are still in us, even with our higher functioning brains. To be honest I don't disagree.
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Post by havenless on Mar 30, 2017 21:59:56 GMT
We'll just slide this in behind the other 10 movies they've promised us they're making.
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