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Post by Isapop on Jan 10, 2019 15:10:30 GMT
Violence has also decreased considerably. Anyone interested in the subject can read Steven Pinker's "Better Angels of our Nature" OH YEAH? TELL THAT TO SOMEBODY WHO JUST GOT RAPED AND MURDERED!
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Post by Aj_June on Jan 10, 2019 15:13:45 GMT
This debate is not about existence of poverty. No body in his right mind can ever claim that there is no poverty. The debate is about whether poverty is declining or not and whether there was less struggle and higher standards for human lives prior to 1914. Your video has a scene from a slum in India. I am an Indian and almost all economist in India agree that poverty is declining (and has declined in India in past).
India saw GDP growth rate of 5.4% from 2010-2018 and yet population increased just by 1.2%. Now there is inequality but inequality doesn't mean all the created wealth goes to rich people. As a matter of fact the number of people residing in extreme poverty line as measured by Indian government and declined from 306 million in 2011 to 70 million in 2018. Even according to UN standards, poverty declined in India dramatically. Not just the people in extreme poverty saw improvements but even those in less poverty saw improvements in their circumstances.
I actually live in a poor country. It's funny to me when western people mention poor countries such as my country without being totally informed. There are a few countries in Africa where poverty is rising. But overall, in most parts of world the poverty is declining. Whether that be extreme poverty or general poverty.
Over 10 Years, Poverty Rate In India Reduced To Half: UN Report
Violence has also decreased considerably. Anyone interested in the subject can read Steven Pinker's "Better Angels of our Nature"Ye Yes, violence rate has also been declinling for a long time but in last 30 years there has been a great reduction in violence. Some people might see a lot of news of violence because of the increase in social media participation and culture of glorifying/exaggerating things. But the stats clearly show the violence/crime rate to have deteriorated. Humans have seen progress on most of the measures that can be thought of as representing the quality of life. Not just in western countries but also in poorer countries.
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Post by general313 on Jan 10, 2019 15:17:25 GMT
You can't make a case that, on a global scale, the world is worse today by pointing to a few bad trouble spots. How about naming a century before the 20th century where you would argue that, on a world wide average, peoples' standards of living were better than today. His cunning cherry picking is seriously so sad. He even throws non-sequiturs from time to time. For example, he said there is so much inequality in the world. As if inequality didn't exist before 1914. The fact is that inequality has decreased a lot and there are more measures of holding people's right nowadays than it was in the feudal days. Perhaps these fanatics don't want to look at the feudal days of humanity. For them the world was great before 1914 and after that time period things have become drastically bad that there is a case for the end of the days. I think it's quite common for people to take current crises and think of them as unprecedentedly dire. I remember a lot of talk just after 9-11 that that was the worst crisis to ever hit the U.S, even though far more people died in the Civil War, the World Wars, Korean War and Viet Nam War. I suppose it comes naturally to inflate the importance of what is near to one (in space and/or time). It's not just poverty that greatly improved in recent times, the murder rate trend from the 1300's to today is quite dramatic. See the first graph in Homicides
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Post by Vegas on Jan 10, 2019 15:21:48 GMT
Yes, poverty is, and has always been, the world's number one problem. But unless want to assert that it wasn't as bad on a global scale in the centuries before the 20th century than your video sidesteps the point.
It's just a video... There was no real point... maybe just a reminder that we are talking about real people still dealing with some very real problems.
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Post by Aj_June on Jan 10, 2019 15:24:22 GMT
His cunning cherry picking is seriously so sad. He even throws non-sequiturs from time to time. For example, he said there is so much inequality in the world. As if inequality didn't exist before 1914. The fact is that inequality has decreased a lot and there are more measures of holding people's right nowadays than it was in the feudal days. Perhaps these fanatics don't want to look at the feudal days of humanity. For them the world was great before 1914 and after that time period things have become drastically bad that there is a case for the end of the days. I think it's quite common for people to take current crises and think of them as unprecedentedly dire. I remember a lot of talk just after 9-11 that that was the worst crisis to ever hit the U.S, even though far more people died in the Civil War, the World Wars, Korean War and Viet Nam War. I suppose it comes naturally to inflate the importance of what is near to one (in space and/or time). It's not just poverty that greatly improved in recent times, the murder rate trend from the 1300's to today is quite dramatic. See the first graph in HomicidesI I do 100% agree with what you wrote. It does seem one gets far more touched by what one sees immediately in front of her/him. But I still hope people should do a careful examination of facts at least when they are making a claim of a decline in human progress because it's like being disrespectful to what we have achieved as humans. Thanks for that stat about the homicide rate. I did read about crime but not about homicide so it will be interesting to read the progress made in the last 700 years. I am often nostalgic about the medieval era and want to live in the Edo period in Japan. But knowing what we have to what people of past didn't have makes me question my nostalgia.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2019 15:27:52 GMT
Well yes. History is replete with turning points. 1815, 1455, 1215, 1066... you name it. Hmmm. And yet, here we are living in a way better world than they had in 1914. So it seems like this predetermined march towards disaster faded out. You must not live in the Sudan...or Chad....or Syria. Indeed I do not. Well, I did say "we" are living in a way better world, not "the people of the Sudan, Chad and Syria". By "we" I did mean humanity as a whole, rather than you and I. So if war is your metric... Fewer people are dying of war today than almost any time in history. The total deaths of the Syrian war are approximately 500,000, over a period of eight years. World War I killed about thirty five times that number in half the time. Today's wars are small, modest affairs compared to the wars of the first half of the previous century. Oh, but I didn't say that things are continuing as they always have. I said they're getting better.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2019 15:30:35 GMT
How do you think wealth was distributed in, say, 1800? In 1500? Do you think those were fairer times when mostly people had equal access to well paying jobs, education, leisure time, etc? I'm honestly curious if that's your view of the past.
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Post by Isapop on Jan 10, 2019 15:30:40 GMT
I am often nostalgic about the medieval era and want to live in the Edo period in Japan. But knowing what we have to what people of past didn't have makes me question my nostalgia.
All I need to know about earlier eras is no indoor plumbing. The hell with that!
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Post by Aj_June on Jan 10, 2019 15:39:45 GMT
How do you think wealth was distributed in, say, 1800? In 1500? Do you think those were fairer times when mostly people had equal access to well paying jobs, education, leisure time, etc? I'm honestly curious if that's your view of the past. As a fan of Charles Dickens I do love to hear Tas-10's thoughts about the amazing Victorian society of the 19th century. Or the serfdom in Russia or the feudal rigid and rotten societies of India and Japan. I do love to know what exactly he thinks about those times or many other periods of human history including ages in which rich people would have their way with the poor people. But I don't think I will see a reply from him and if there is a reply it would be another non-sequitur.
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Post by Vegas on Jan 10, 2019 15:44:48 GMT
Violence has also decreased considerably. Anyone interested in the subject can read Steven Pinker's "Better Angels of our Nature" By Dr David Hammond, Institute for Economics and Peace 6:00AM BST 03 Jul 2015 Since its publication in 2011, Steven Pinker’s “The Better Angels of our Nature: Why Violence has Declined” has sparked a rigorous debate between some of the world’s most prominent thinkers. Traversing from pre-history to hunter-gatherer times to the present, Pinker concludes that we are living in the most peaceful time in history. Compared to our anarchic beginnings, levels of violence are at an all-time low and the “Long Peace” after the Second World War is, for now, still with us. But when confronted with tragic events such as those just last week in Tunisia, Kuwait and France, Pinker’s conclusion offers little solace. • Islamist terror attacks in Tunisia, Kuwait and France, in pictures Last year 180,000 people were killed in internal conflicts, a number 3.5 times higher than it was in 2010. Deaths from terrorism have risen fivefold over the past 15 years, killing more than 32,000 people in 2014. UNHCR estimates that almost 60 million people are now either refugees or internally displaced because of conflict and violence. This is the highest it has been since the Second World War and equates to almost one per cent of the world’s current population. The latest figures for deaths by homicide are at almost half a million a year.
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Post by Vegas on Jan 10, 2019 15:50:02 GMT
Violence has also decreased considerably. Anyone interested in the subject can read Steven Pinker's "Better Angels of our Nature" By Dr David Hammond, Institute for Economics and Peace 6:00AM BST 03 Jul 2015 Since its publication in 2011, Steven Pinker’s “The Better Angels of our Nature: Why Violence has Declined” has sparked a rigorous debate between some of the world’s most prominent thinkers. Traversing from pre-history to hunter-gatherer times to the present, Pinker concludes that we are living in the most peaceful time in history. Compared to our anarchic beginnings, levels of violence are at an all-time low and the “Long Peace” after the Second World War is, for now, still with us. But when confronted with tragic events such as those just last week in Tunisia, Kuwait and France, Pinker’s conclusion offers little solace. • Islamist terror attacks in Tunisia, Kuwait and France, in pictures Last year 180,000 people were killed in internal conflicts, a number 3.5 times higher than it was in 2010. Deaths from terrorism have risen fivefold over the past 15 years, killing more than 32,000 people in 2014. UNHCR estimates that almost 60 million people are now either refugees or internally displaced because of conflict and violence. This is the highest it has been since the Second World War and equates to almost one per cent of the world’s current population. The latest figures for deaths by homicide are at almost half a million a year. Continued:Such trends show that the distribution of peace across the globe is mirroring wealth: peaceful countries are becoming more peaceful while the most violent are becoming more violent. Considering that more than two billion people live in the 20 least peaceful countries in the world, the net effect of this widening peace gap is disproportionately skewed to the negative. Whether you believe the world is more peaceful depends on your frame of reference and statistical choices. Our research suggests the world is certainly a less peaceful place than it was eight years ago, and recent events are a sober reminder of that fact.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jan 10, 2019 15:51:06 GMT
Violence has also decreased considerably. Anyone interested in the subject can read Steven Pinker's "Better Angels of our Nature" By Dr David Hammond, Institute for Economics and Peace 6:00AM BST 03 Jul 2015 Since its publication in 2011, Steven Pinker’s “The Better Angels of our Nature: Why Violence has Declined” has sparked a rigorous debate between some of the world’s most prominent thinkers. Traversing from pre-history to hunter-gatherer times to the present, Pinker concludes that we are living in the most peaceful time in history. Compared to our anarchic beginnings, levels of violence are at an all-time low and the “Long Peace” after the Second World War is, for now, still with us. But when confronted with tragic events such as those just last week in Tunisia, Kuwait and France, Pinker’s conclusion offers little solace. • Islamist terror attacks in Tunisia, Kuwait and France, in pictures Last year 180,000 people were killed in internal conflicts, a number 3.5 times higher than it was in 2010. Deaths from terrorism have risen fivefold over the past 15 years, killing more than 32,000 people in 2014. UNHCR estimates that almost 60 million people are now either refugees or internally displaced because of conflict and violence. This is the highest it has been since the Second World War and equates to almost one per cent of the world’s current population. The latest figures for deaths by homicide are at almost half a million a year. I'm sure there's some upticks in violence here and there (particularly with the increase of Islamic radicalism), violence from idealogical differences are inevitable, but if were talking about the history of violence in the grander scheme of things (over the last few centuries or so) then it actually has gone down. The article you posted even admits to that.
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Post by general313 on Jan 10, 2019 15:56:34 GMT
I am often nostalgic about the medieval era and want to live in the Edo period in Japan. But knowing what we have to what people of past didn't have makes me question my nostalgia.
All I need to know about earlier eras is no indoor plumbing. The hell with that! Everybody thinks of their smartphones as the best thing since sliced bread, but when water heaters breaks down it becomes clear that they are the the most important invention of the last 200 years.
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Post by Vegas on Jan 10, 2019 15:58:15 GMT
By Dr David Hammond, Institute for Economics and Peace 6:00AM BST 03 Jul 2015 Since its publication in 2011, Steven Pinker’s “The Better Angels of our Nature: Why Violence has Declined” has sparked a rigorous debate between some of the world’s most prominent thinkers. Traversing from pre-history to hunter-gatherer times to the present, Pinker concludes that we are living in the most peaceful time in history. Compared to our anarchic beginnings, levels of violence are at an all-time low and the “Long Peace” after the Second World War is, for now, still with us. But when confronted with tragic events such as those just last week in Tunisia, Kuwait and France, Pinker’s conclusion offers little solace. • Islamist terror attacks in Tunisia, Kuwait and France, in pictures Last year 180,000 people were killed in internal conflicts, a number 3.5 times higher than it was in 2010. Deaths from terrorism have risen fivefold over the past 15 years, killing more than 32,000 people in 2014. UNHCR estimates that almost 60 million people are now either refugees or internally displaced because of conflict and violence. This is the highest it has been since the Second World War and equates to almost one per cent of the world’s current population. The latest figures for deaths by homicide are at almost half a million a year. I'm sure there's some upticks in violence here and there (particularly with the increase of Islamic radicalism), violence from idealogical differences are inevitable, but if were talking about the history of violence in the grander scheme of things (over the last few centuries or so) then it actually has gone down. The article you posted even admits to that. Are we less violent than cavemen?.... Sure. The point of the article is to point out that Pinker might be a tad over-reaching. Also from the article:
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Post by Aj_June on Jan 10, 2019 15:59:50 GMT
By Dr David Hammond, Institute for Economics and Peace 6:00AM BST 03 Jul 2015 Since its publication in 2011, Steven Pinker’s “The Better Angels of our Nature: Why Violence has Declined” has sparked a rigorous debate between some of the world’s most prominent thinkers. Traversing from pre-history to hunter-gatherer times to the present, Pinker concludes that we are living in the most peaceful time in history. Compared to our anarchic beginnings, levels of violence are at an all-time low and the “Long Peace” after the Second World War is, for now, still with us. But when confronted with tragic events such as those just last week in Tunisia, Kuwait and France, Pinker’s conclusion offers little solace. • Islamist terror attacks in Tunisia, Kuwait and France, in pictures Last year 180,000 people were killed in internal conflicts, a number 3.5 times higher than it was in 2010. Deaths from terrorism have risen fivefold over the past 15 years, killing more than 32,000 people in 2014. UNHCR estimates that almost 60 million people are now either refugees or internally displaced because of conflict and violence. This is the highest it has been since the Second World War and equates to almost one per cent of the world’s current population. The latest figures for deaths by homicide are at almost half a million a year. I'm sure there's some upticks in violence here and there (particularly with the increase of Islamic radicalism), violence from idealogical differences are inevitable, but if were talking about the history of violence in the grander scheme of things (over the last few centuries or so) then it actually has gone down. The article you posted even admits to that. The deaths from terrorism had temporarily increased in 2014 and 2015. Vegas quoted stats from Institute for Economics and Peace from 2015. Well, the same insititute ( Institute for Economics and Peace) has now registered a fall in terrorism for 3 years in a row. More importantly, there is no upward trend in the terrorism. And overall death rate has decreased.
www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2018/12/05/terrorism-in-decline/#1008c46d203c
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jan 10, 2019 16:07:25 GMT
I'm sure there's some upticks in violence here and there (particularly with the increase of Islamic radicalism), violence from idealogical differences are inevitable, but if were talking about the history of violence in the grander scheme of things (over the last few centuries or so) then it actually has gone down. The article you posted even admits to that. Are we less violent than cavemen?.... Sure. The point of the article is to point out that Pinker might be a tad over-reaching. Also from the article: "Are we less violent than cavemen?.... Sure."
Actually even past the era of primitive man:
We burned "witches"
Sacrificed people to sun God
Nearly wiped out millions of Native Americans
Slavery was perfectly acceptable
Nearly wiped out the Jews
Dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan
Maybe he's a tad overeaching now with Islamic radicalism being such a wide spread problem, but I think his overall point stills stands.
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Post by Vegas on Jan 10, 2019 16:12:04 GMT
The deaths from terrorism had temporarily increased in 2014 and 2015. Vegas quoted stats from Institute for Economics and Peace from 2015. Well, the same insititute ( Institute for Economics and Peace) has now registered a fall in terrorism for 3 years in a row. More importantly, there is no upward trend in the terrorism. And overall death rate has decreased.
www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2018/12/05/terrorism-in-decline/#1008c46d203c
Now.. We're just playing number games... Upticks are being ignored to showcase downticks. If deaths by terror attacks in 2015 were up by over 300% from 2010 (3.5 times higher) and it has decreased by 27% since 2015... We're still at a staggering increase since 2010.
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Post by Vegas on Jan 10, 2019 16:14:25 GMT
"Are we less violent than cavemen?.... Sure."
Actually even past the era of primitive man:
We burned "witches"
Sacrificed people to sun God
Nearly wiped out millions of Native Americans
Slavery was perfectly acceptable
Nearly wiped out the Jews
Dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan
Maybe he's a tad overeaching now with Islamic radicalism being such a wide spread problem, but I think his overall point stills stands.
Well... The two boldened ones are really more for the "Last Days" argument... ....and it was 2 nuclear bombs.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jan 10, 2019 16:18:42 GMT
"Are we less violent than cavemen?.... Sure."
Actually even past the era of primitive man:
We burned "witches"
Sacrificed people to sun God
Nearly wiped out millions of Native Americans
Slavery was perfectly acceptable
Nearly wiped out the Jews
Dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan
Maybe he's a tad overeaching now with Islamic radicalism being such a wide spread problem, but I think his overall point stills stands.
Well... The two boldened ones are really more for the "Last Days" argument... ....and it was 2 nuclear bombs. Well something from almost 75 years ago might be stretching the term "last days"
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Post by Aj_June on Jan 10, 2019 16:20:42 GMT
The deaths from terrorism had temporarily increased in 2014 and 2015. Vegas quoted stats from Institute for Economics and Peace from 2015. Well, the same insititute ( Institute for Economics and Peace) has now registered a fall in terrorism for 3 years in a row. More importantly, there is no upward trend in the terrorism. And overall death rate has decreased.
www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2018/12/05/terrorism-in-decline/#1008c46d203c
Now.. We're just playing number games... Upticks are being ignored to showcase downticks. If deaths by terror attacks in 2015 were up by over 300% from 2010 (3.5 times higher) and it has decreased by 27% since 2015... We're still at a staggering increase since 2010. The point is in seeing the overall picture rather than one particular thing. Islamic terrorism has evolved in this century. Sure. But the death rate from say the state conflicts has decreased. So overall death rate has decreased. The terrorism as we know today was not prevalent in past like it is today. But have other aspects of violence gone down? yes. Also, is there a continuing trend in the increase in violence? No. Death rates are falling and even terrorism-related death rates have fallen in the last 3 years and the projections are for it to fall in future too. No one here is saying the world has become peaceful. Read again. No one is saying the world has become peaceful. What people are saying is that the world has become relatively more peaceful and this 1914 is no way relevant in starting of any continued trend. The increase in various metrics that reveal improvement in living standards of humans is undeniable. The problem is only when you believe saying things have improved means saying things have become perfect.
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