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Post by Prime etc. on Jan 31, 2020 4:00:24 GMT
Anyway, the aim of this organisation is to destroy any form of synthetic life. Picard's housekeeper notes that Romulan society has never had anything like that - "We don't have androids or AIs, we don't study cybernetics..." she said. Which doesn't really square with "I know a host of Romulan cyberneticists that would love to be this close to you." Said by Jarok to Data in The Defector. But oh well. Ha. Reminds me of the line in ST 2 said to Kirk "You have never faced death." What are they talking about? His brother died, how many times did McCoy say "he's dead Jim."
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Post by dazz on Jan 31, 2020 5:50:35 GMT
Anyway, the aim of this organisation is to destroy any form of synthetic life. Picard's housekeeper notes that Romulan society has never had anything like that - "We don't have androids or AIs, we don't study cybernetics..." she said. Which doesn't really square with "I know a host of Romulan cyberneticists that would love to be this close to you." Said by Jarok to Data in The Defector. But oh well. Ha. Reminds me of the line in ST 2 said to Kirk "You have never faced death." What are they talking about? His brother died, how many times did McCoy say "he's dead Jim."
The movie spells out what they are talking about, the Kobiyashi Maru is a test to see how Starfleet Cadets react in the face of certain doom, to see how they think and react, do they go down swinging, running, protecting others, does the Captain try to save his crew and face death alone, Kirk's whole I don't believe in the no-win scenario is he never accepts he has lost, he never resigned himself to his fate, that there is nothing left that he can do to help himself, doesn't mean he hasn't seen death but he had never faced it, he was never willing to believe he had played all his cards like others have and do with the Kobiyashi Maru test, which we see in the 09 film Kirk keeps taking the test.
Kirk refused to face the test and accept the results, so he challenges it over and over until he ultimately figures out to alter the test to make it winnable, he cheats because if he cannot win fair he'll win dirty as we see in JJ's Star Trek movie, and as he points out the test is a cheat in itself so why not try to cheat the cheat?
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Post by dazz on Jan 31, 2020 6:22:59 GMT
Just watched episode 2. Not a lot happened, really. Not sure what the attitude to spoilers is here, but mild spoilers follow.... So it turns out that the super-secret Tal Shiar is just a front for a super-DUPER-secret organisation. Not sure what the point of that is, why not just make it the Tal Shiar? What's the benefit of a new one? You just know Section 31 is going to be along since the show is big on "things that violate the whole point of Star Trek", but are they going to reveal that Section 31 is just a front for the even more secret Section 32!?!? Anyway, the aim of this organisation is to destroy any form of synthetic life. Picard's housekeeper notes that Romulan society has never had anything like that - "We don't have androids or AIs, we don't study cybernetics..." she said. Which doesn't really square with "I know a host of Romulan cyberneticists that would love to be this close to you." Said by Jarok to Data in The Defector. But oh well. Admiral Bitch Lady, who gives Picard a tongue-lashing... the thing that jumped out at me about that scene was that it would have been a perfect role for Admiral Nechayev. And Natalia Nogulich is still very active in the acting world, so why not? The pacing of the show seems kind of slow to me. Two episodes in and we're still basically wallowing around on Earth. Picard wants to find the robo-chick, but we the audience already know exactly where she is and what she's doing. So we're spending a lot of screen time watching Picard look for answers that we already have. And also... This show persists in acting like Picard and Data were super close friends. But... they weren't. I mean, Picard obviously had great admiration for Data, but they were never particularly close as friends - Picard kept his distance from all of the crew, after all. I think it was the RLM review where they point out that in The Most Toys, where Data is apparently killed, Picard was sad about it but he was ready to write it off as another dead crewman and get on with the mission. It was Geordi that obsessed over it, because Geordi was always the one that was especially close to Data. So I do find it a bit weird that the idea is being pushed that Picard saw Data practically as his son. Patrick Stewart's acting is still good, though. I always saw Picard as taking a great interest in Data, next to Geordie Picard is the crew member I also figured Data was closest to, and they did have a mentor/student father/son relationship, everyone else Data was friends with but Picard and he had a different type of relationship which was no less strong just different, and Data ultimately giving his life for Picard's would probably have far deeper meaning than Data just supposedly dying in a supposed transporter accident, which in the timeline of the series happens just a few years into their joint tenure on the Enterprise, which Picard and Data having to form new friendships and relationships with many new crew members during this time, but by the time of Data's death they had served together for the better part of 15 years.
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Post by Prime etc. on Jan 31, 2020 7:01:06 GMT
The movie spells out what they are talking about, the Kobiyashi Maru is a test to see how Starfleet Cadets react in the face of certain doom, to see how they think and react, do they go down swinging, running, protecting others, does the Captain try to save his crew and face death alone, Kirk's whole I don't believe in the no-win scenario is he never accepts he has lost, he never resigned himself to his fate, that there is nothing left that he can do to help himself, doesn't mean he hasn't seen death but he had never faced it, he was never willing to believe he had played all his cards like others have and do with the Kobiyashi Maru test, which we see in the 09 film Kirk keeps taking the test.
Kirk refused to face the test and accept the results, so he challenges it over and over until he ultimately figures out to alter the test to make it winnable, he cheats because if he cannot win fair he'll win dirty as we see in JJ's Star Trek movie, and as he points out the test is a cheat in itself so why not try to cheat the cheat?
But he faced it in real life many times, including no win scenarios. When he was told he never faced death, it was being implied as something in his life in general he had never dealt with--which was why the Spock sacrifice was supposed to be so bad (but in the series, Spock died or seemed to die a couple of times so even that wasn't new). He had his brain removed etc. When McCoy reconnects his vocal cords:
"Ah...ah...hmmm."
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Post by dazz on Jan 31, 2020 8:29:17 GMT
The movie spells out what they are talking about, the Kobiyashi Maru is a test to see how Starfleet Cadets react in the face of certain doom, to see how they think and react, do they go down swinging, running, protecting others, does the Captain try to save his crew and face death alone, Kirk's whole I don't believe in the no-win scenario is he never accepts he has lost, he never resigned himself to his fate, that there is nothing left that he can do to help himself, doesn't mean he hasn't seen death but he had never faced it, he was never willing to believe he had played all his cards like others have and do with the Kobiyashi Maru test, which we see in the 09 film Kirk keeps taking the test.
Kirk refused to face the test and accept the results, so he challenges it over and over until he ultimately figures out to alter the test to make it winnable, he cheats because if he cannot win fair he'll win dirty as we see in JJ's Star Trek movie, and as he points out the test is a cheat in itself so why not try to cheat the cheat?
But he faced it in real life many times, including no win scenarios. When he was told he never faced death, it was being implied as something in his life in general he had never dealt with--which was why the Spock sacrifice was supposed to be so bad (but in the series, Spock died or seemed to die a couple of times so even that wasn't new). He had his brain removed etc. When McCoy reconnects his vocal cords:
"Ah...ah...hmmm."
No death is meant in terms of a no win scenario, which is the point, which Spock's death makes him face, there was a no win scenario in that instance, there was a way to beat Khan but it was still a defeat in terms of the movie because to beat his enemy Kirk had to lose his best friend, and watch as his best friend died knowing there was nothing Kirk could do, there by finally facing death and such a situation, something outright out of his control.
It's the point that Kirk until then had always found a way out of those situations, found a way to leave the victor, change the course of events in some way, but in that situation in death Khan still won on some level, though they fix this in the next movie, but in Wrath of Khan Kirk ultimately has to resign himself to the scenario at hand, and that all he could do is be there for Spock as he died.
It's not to say Kirk never saw death or felt loss or something like that but that he had never found himself in a position where he had to accept fate as it was, that nothing h did would change his scenario, which was the point of the Kobiyashi Maru to see how Starfleet Officer would react in those situations.
Atleast it's how I feel the movie implies and I read that exchange.
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Post by Prime etc. on Jan 31, 2020 8:35:33 GMT
No death is meant in terms of a no win scenario, which is the point, which Spock's death makes him face, there was a no win scenario in that instance, there was a way to beat Khan but it was still a defeat in terms of the movie because to beat his enemy Kirk had to lose his best friend, and watch as his best friend died knowing there was nothing Kirk could do, there by finally facing death and such a situation, something outright out of his control.
But the fact that they escaped Khan meant it wasn't a no-win scenario. In the Kobiyashi Maru scenario, everyone dies. The one time Kirk did face the no-win scenario was ST: Generations since he dies-and I am not sure if he did anything that stopped it-I thought Picard was the one who stopped the Droog.
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Post by dazz on Jan 31, 2020 9:25:21 GMT
No death is meant in terms of a no win scenario, which is the point, which Spock's death makes him face, there was a no win scenario in that instance, there was a way to beat Khan but it was still a defeat in terms of the movie because to beat his enemy Kirk had to lose his best friend, and watch as his best friend died knowing there was nothing Kirk could do, there by finally facing death and such a situation, something outright out of his control.
But the fact that they escaped Khan meant it wasn't a no-win scenario. In the Kobiyashi Maru scenario, everyone dies. The one time Kirk did face the no-win scenario was ST: Generations since he dies-and I am not sure if he did anything that stopped it-I thought Picard was the one who stopped the Droog.
No because you do not have to save the Kobiyashi Maru in the scenario, you can choose to not violate Klingon space and provoke an encounter, which itself brings other ramifications just not the capture or destruction of your ship and crew, it's not a case of no matter what you do everyone dies, but no matter what you choose you yourself lose in some way, even if you try to save the ship you don't necessarily get "killed" but potentially caught, this is the same with Khan, they beat him but Kirk still loses because of the cost of that victory, though Kirk not knowing that makes it a little different I guess.
But Spock's death is also a true no win scenario for Kirk on a personal level, no matter what Spock is dead, but staying inside the radiated area worsens Spoke's radiation, which kills him quicker, but Kirk can not get him out without flooding all of engineering with the same radiation, he can keep Spock alive longer, but he cannot save him and is resigned to having to accept this and have one last conversation with Spock, this is situation where Kirk has to accept he has no moves left to play, just a conclusion he cannot escape.
In Generations it wasn't really a no win scenario, Kirk didn't seem to know he would die if he uncloaked the launcher, that just kind of happens, though yeah it was a no win scenario he just didn't know it, similar to the whole Khan thing, he knew it was a risk not a certainty he would die, where as Spock going into the radiated chamber was a no win scenario, Spock knew no matter what he would die, but as he said the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the few, Spock an Kirk both go put in no win scenarios and knew it, Kirk emotionally and Spock physically.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Feb 2, 2020 20:25:17 GMT
Just watched episode 2. Not a lot happened, really. Not sure what the attitude to spoilers is here, but mild spoilers follow.... So it turns out that the super-secret Tal Shiar is just a front for a super-DUPER-secret organisation. Not sure what the point of that is, why not just make it the Tal Shiar? What's the benefit of a new one? You just know Section 31 is going to be along since the show is big on "things that violate the whole point of Star Trek", but are they going to reveal that Section 31 is just a front for the even more secret Section Nah, section 32 is all about agriculture and the proper transportation of stembolts. The super secret confidential organization within Section 31 falls under Section 31...... A 🤔🧐
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Post by stargazer1682 on Feb 2, 2020 20:45:26 GMT
Admiral Bitch Lady, who gives Picard a tongue-lashing... the thing that jumped out at me about that scene was that it would have been a perfect role for Admiral Nechayev. And Natalia Nogulich is still very active in the acting world, so why not? Yeah, I was looking real close to see if she was someone we were supposed to know. I was a little disappointed it wasn't. Her whole scene dressing down Picard was one of those "deep sigh" moments that I find all too common with Discovery. Like, really, we're doing this? Fucking-a..... I thought the same thing, it's annoying, but not overly surprising. It inexplicably just the way any hour long show seems to be written these days; and it's kind of amazing in this age of "tldr" short attention spans. Don't get me wrong, there are definitely some older episodes of shows, including various Star Trek series, where when I watch it I think, man they seriously cut to the chase; more so than probably should have and at expense of telling a complete story. But we've now come to the opposite extreme; now they can't ever seem to get to the damn point anymore. At least Picard is only 10 episodes, at least this season; and it won't drag on for months and months like some other shows. (**cough**Arrowverse**cough**) Anyone else wonder, especially after the doctor's diagnosis in episode 2, that they may play the irumodic syndrome card to question whether some or any of this is really happening? That was my first thought during the first episode when they noted that Picard was alone in the security footage, with no sign of Dahj or apparently the people who came after her, as they mentioned in the second episode.
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Post by Prime etc. on Feb 2, 2020 21:05:22 GMT
No because you do not have to save the Kobiyashi Maru in the scenario, you can choose to not violate Klingon space and provoke an encounter, which itself brings other ramifications just not the capture or destruction of your ship and crew, it's not a case of no matter what you do everyone dies, but no matter what you choose you yourself lose in some way, even if you try to save the ship you don't necessarily get "killed" but potentially caught, this is the same with Khan, they beat him but Kirk still loses because of the cost of that victory, though Kirk not knowing that makes it a little different I guess.
But it was a WIN scenario. It only meant someone had to do something dangerous and self-sacrificing, just like on the tv show (in one case when Kirk rigs the spaceship to fly into the Doomsday machine-he was sure to die but they beamed him out in time I think). The movie wanted to make the Spock death a bigger deal so they implied he had never accepted death-but he did, many times in the series.
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Post by dazz on Feb 3, 2020 5:53:11 GMT
No because you do not have to save the Kobiyashi Maru in the scenario, you can choose to not violate Klingon space and provoke an encounter, which itself brings other ramifications just not the capture or destruction of your ship and crew, it's not a case of no matter what you do everyone dies, but no matter what you choose you yourself lose in some way, even if you try to save the ship you don't necessarily get "killed" but potentially caught, this is the same with Khan, they beat him but Kirk still loses because of the cost of that victory, though Kirk not knowing that makes it a little different I guess.
But it was a WIN scenario. It only meant someone had to do something dangerous and self-sacrificing, just like on the tv show (in one case when Kirk rigs the spaceship to fly into the Doomsday machine-he was sure to die but they beamed him out in time I think). The movie wanted to make the Spock death a bigger deal so they implied he had never accepted death-but he did, many times in the series.
Firstly no it wasn't did you not read the rest of what you quoted, the Kobayashi Maru is a no win scenario not because you always die but because you always lose in some way, killed, captured, court marshalled, mutiny, leaving innocents to die and so on, same with Khan, yes the ship and remaining crew survived but Kirk loses his best friend who he has to watch die from radiation, the reason why being Spock had to make the sacrifice or else everyone would die due to how Kirk defeats Khan, he beats Khan but still loses, making it a no win scenario for Kirk personally.
Also no because that is not the only point, you are hung up on a single word, not the actual meaning behind it, it's not Kirk never dealt with death, or accepted he could die, it's he never accepted that a situation unwinnable, hook or by crook he always found a way to win, in that scenario you mentioned which btw I am not a Original series fan so I have only watched a handful of episodes so I don't know the one you are talking about, but he likely knew that doing said suicide attack could be stopped and him saved by being beamed out, if they could get the transporters working or locked in whatever, but the Spock situation is the first time Kirk has to face a true no win scenario, his immediate thought upon seeing things is get him out of there we can save him quick, until Bones tells him it's too late, Spock's dead anyway, and Kirk stops struggling and cracks, he has no moves to play, no choice to make that could save his friend, he has to accept fate as it is, something he supposedly never did before, because every other time he's had some clever plan or ally he can rely on to save the day, but here he has nothing.
Spock is going to die and so how is Kirk going to handle it? does he risk everyone so he can comfort his friend in his final moments, does he isolate Spock to protect everyone else and simply have one last talk with him, does he risk everyone to try and keep Spock alive for as long as possible, does he turn away and refuse to see Spock die, does he rage out, break down, be stoic? in that scenario like the Kobiyashi Maru it's about how he reacts not what he accomplishes because no matter what he does he cannot save Spock, it's as simple as that.
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Post by Prime etc. on Feb 3, 2020 5:58:09 GMT
Firstly no it wasn't did you not read the rest of what you quoted, the Kobayashi Maru is a no win scenario not because you always die but because you always lose in some way, killed, captured, court marshalled, mutiny, leaving innocents to die and so on, same with Khan, yes the ship and remaining crew survived but Kirk loses his best friend who he has to watch die from radiation, the reason why being Spock had to make the sacrifice or else everyone would die due to how Kirk defeats Khan, he beats Khan but still loses, making it a no win scenario for Kirk personally.
That's a Rigellian word game! How is it a No Win scenario for Kirk personally when his crew is alive? I agree that watching him die from radiation slowly is a no win, but not the scenario of the ship in danger which is what the Maru challenge was about.
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Post by dazz on Feb 3, 2020 6:17:56 GMT
Firstly no it wasn't did you not read the rest of what you quoted, the Kobayashi Maru is a no win scenario not because you always die but because you always lose in some way, killed, captured, court marshalled, mutiny, leaving innocents to die and so on, same with Khan, yes the ship and remaining crew survived but Kirk loses his best friend who he has to watch die from radiation, the reason why being Spock had to make the sacrifice or else everyone would die due to how Kirk defeats Khan, he beats Khan but still loses, making it a no win scenario for Kirk personally.
That's a Rigellian word game! How is it a No Win scenario for Kirk personally when his crew is alive? I agree that watching him die from radiation slowly is a no win, but not the scenario of the ship in danger which is what the Maru challenge was about.
Ok at this point you are either a troll or dingbat, I do not know which, I have explained the scenarios multiple times and you keep repeating the same flawed idea, the Maru scenario is not about saving your crew, because you can be captured, cause a war, flee and be court marshalled or have the crew mutiny against you, be forced to watch the Maru be destroyed and hear the victims crying for help, in that scenario you can save YOUR crew at the cost of the Maru and your crews respect or status in Starfleet, it is NOT about saving the Maru, it is about how you REACT to the scenario and in some way you will always lose something, being court marshalled or being mutinied by your crew is a personal loss but everyone else survives, same as Spock dying is a personal loss for Kirk, his ship is saved but at the cost of his best friend, how is this going over your head?
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Post by Prime etc. on Feb 3, 2020 6:20:47 GMT
Ok at this point you are either a troll or dingbat, I do not know which, I have explained the scenarios multiple times and you keep repeating the same flawed idea, the Maru scenario is not about saving your crew, because you can be captured, cause a war, flee and be court marshalled or have the crew mutiny against you, be forced to watch the Maru be destroyed and hear the victims crying for help, in that scenario you can save YOUR crew at the cost of the Maru and your crews respect or status in Starfleet, it is NOT about saving the Maru, it is about how you REACT to the scenario and in some way you will always lose something, being court marshalled or being mutinied by your crew is a personal loss but everyone else survives, same as Spock dying is a personal loss for Kirk, his ship is saved but at the cost of his best friend, how is this going over your head? The specifics of the Maru scenario were not important, it was the inability to win in any way. Of course you will always lose something--you are the captain of a ship--you would never expect to be unscathed in an attack situation. Any crew loss is a personal loss.
I give up.
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