|
|
Post by goz on Jan 31, 2019 2:04:47 GMT
I apologise, that is not what it sounded like I meant. I will clarify. I approve of ( and encourage pre-marital sex as long as adequate contraceptives are in use.) For extra marital sex, it is more complicated, I DON'T approve of extra marital sex in a marriage which is intact because, IMHO whether the marriage was in a church or secular, I believe STRONGLY in the marriage vows. It is a matter of trust and love. However, if the marriage is irretrievably broken down and people are intending to divorce or totally separated, I think it can be considered 'moral' to seek a new partner. To me the 'timeframe' is immaterial. BTW I am also pro-choice butt against most abortions, however I believe you can't walk a mile in someone else's shoes so it MUST be left up to an individual 'choice'. When the marriage is irretrievably broken down then it must come to an end, but, seeking out someone while married is not the way to go. There are actually websites for people that want to have adultery. WTF. There are plenty of places to help crisis pregnancies, as opposed to terminating the life in the womb. Look Clusium, I DO respect you being such a loyal Catholic butt the same things I said about the Catholic Church apply to you. I have never asked butt you sounds like a nun. (Don't reply I don't want to know and it is not a bad thing as you obviously do your best to understand people in real life situations) Don't let's confuse two situations. For a start your church doesn't believe in divorce, so WTF are people supposed to do? There is also the time frame for people who are not religious. It seem s unfair to make them wait to find a new partner because of a piece of paper when the essence of the relationship is broken. [quote[There are plenty of places to help crisis pregnancies, as opposed to terminating the life in the womb.[/quote] Are you serious? Due to the seriousness of giving life to another human and it's lifelong commitment especially if their foetus is malformed etc...is ruinous |
|
|
|
Post by captainbryce on Jan 31, 2019 3:41:19 GMT
Exodus chapter 3: verses 7 - 8: "I have not been blind," the Lord Told him, "to the oppression which my people endures in Egypt, I have listened to their complaints, about the cruelty of the men in charge of their work. I know what their sufferings are, and I have Come down to Rescue them from the Egyptians."
That doesn't refute the verses that Bryce quoted which clearly show tacit approval of slavery. You have yet to support your statement that "The Book of Exodus is one huge condemnation of slavery." with any convincing Bible quotation. And that's exactly why I called her a liar. She's intentionally avoiding those parts of the bible and cherry picking the verses that talk specifically about the Hebrew slaves in Egypt to try to make her case which is completely dishonest. |
|
|
|
Post by clusium on Jan 31, 2019 4:03:08 GMT
That doesn't refute the verses that Bryce quoted which clearly show tacit approval of slavery. You have yet to support your statement that "The Book of Exodus is one huge condemnation of slavery." with any convincing Bible quotation. And that's exactly why I called her a liar. She's intentionally avoiding those parts of the bible and cherry picking the verses that talk specifically about the Hebrew slaves in Egypt to try to make her case which is completely dishonest. What I posted was not dishonest. The whole message of the Holy Bible is one of Mercy & Justice. God Comes to the aid of those in peril. I also responded to your own Bible quotes too. |
|
|
|
Post by captainbryce on Jan 31, 2019 4:45:33 GMT
And that's exactly why I called her a liar. She's intentionally avoiding those parts of the bible and cherry picking the verses that talk specifically about the Hebrew slaves in Egypt to try to make her case which is completely dishonest. What I posted was not dishonest. The whole message of the Holy Bible is one of Mercy & Justice. God Comes to the aid of those in peril. I also responded to your own Bible quotes too. You have yet to respond to any of the passages that endorse slavery! Anytime someone has quoted a verse that endorses slavery, you ignore those verses completely and then counter by twisting some other verse completely unrelated to the INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY into saying something that supports your preconceived idea that slavery is somehow condemned. That is dishonest, and it is in no way a "response" to the quotes I posted. An example of honesty would be you actually explaining the verses that I posted and admitting that they do in fact support slavery. At the very least, you should be explaining how YOU interpret them in a way that they do not condone slavery. But you haven't even done that. Do you know why you haven't done that? Because you CAN'T! And that is the whole point of me using them. And by the way, mercy and justice are contradictory positions. It is nonsensical to claim to honor the values of both mercy AND justice in an equal capacity at the same time because MERCY IS THE SUSPENSION OF JUSTICE! Moreover, according to the Christian paradigm, God offers ZERO mercy on the basis of deeds, and he suspends ALL justice on the basis of faith, which is a completely immoral system. If all Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and atheists go to hell regardless of how "good" they are as people, and all Christians who call on the name of the Lord are saved no matter how evil they are as people, then what you end up with is a perversion of both mercy AND justice! And that is exactly what the bible (and the Church) teaches. |
|
|
|
Post by clusium on Jan 31, 2019 4:59:53 GMT
What I posted was not dishonest. The whole message of the Holy Bible is one of Mercy & Justice. God Comes to the aid of those in peril. I also responded to your own Bible quotes too. You have yet to respond to any of the passages that endorse slavery! Anytime someone has quoted a verse that endorses slavery, you ignore those verses completely and then counter by twisting some other verse completely unrelated to the INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY into saying something that supports your preconceived idea that slavery is somehow condemned. That is dishonest, and it is in no way a "response" to the quotes I posted. An example of honesty would be you actually explaining the verses that I posted and admitting that they do in fact support slavery. At the very least, you should be explaining how YOU interpret them in a way that they do not condone slavery. But you haven't even done that. Do you know why you haven't done that? Because you CAN'T! And that is the whole point of me using them. And by the way, mercy and justice are contradictory positions. It is nonsensical to claim to honor the values of both mercy AND justice in an equal capacity at the same time because MERCY IS THE SUSPENSION OF JUSTICE! Moreover, according to the Christian paradigm, God offers ZERO mercy on the basis of deeds, and he suspends ALL justice on the basis of faith, which is a completely immoral system. If all Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and atheists go to hell regardless of how "good" they are as people, and all Christians who call on the name of the Lord are saved no matter how evil they are as people, then what you end up with is a perversion of both mercy AND justice! And that is exactly what the bible (and the Church) teaches. I already did. I explained to you that the Hebrew rules for slaves were by far, more lenient than those of their neighbouring countries. God PERMITTED it, but, in reality, did not like it!!! Let's not forget, that He also Allowed Kings David & Solomon to have numerous wives, but, that actually went against His Commandment, Thou shalt not commit adultery. David's adultery with Bath Sheba & subsequent murder of her husband was the straw that broke the camel's back, & then God Visited Justice upon him. |
|
Farside
Sophomore
@alienwerewolf
Posts: 890
Likes: 232
 
|
Post by Farside on Jan 31, 2019 5:54:59 GMT
1. You shall not steal.
2. You shall not commit adultery.
3. You shall not use or distribute illegal drugs.
4. You shall not rape.
5. You shall not murder.
6. You shall not torture.
7. You shall not abuse children.
8. You shall not hunt an animal to extinction.
9. You shall not commit genocide.
10. You shall not pollute the environment.
|
|
|
|
Post by goz on Jan 31, 2019 7:12:31 GMT
1. You shall not steal. 2. You shall not commit adultery. 3. You shall not use or distribute illegal drugs. 4. You shall not rape. 5. You shall not murder. 6. You shall not torture. 7. You shall not abuse children. 8. You shall not hunt an animal to extinction. 9. You shall not commit genocide. 10. You shall not pollute the environment. not bad.. I would include...kill animals cruelly for food. Animal death should be humane and minimise pain and stress |
|
|
|
Post by general313 on Jan 31, 2019 15:43:53 GMT
1. You shall not steal. 2. You shall not commit adultery. 3. You shall not use or distribute illegal drugs. 4. You shall not rape. 5. You shall not murder. 6. You shall not torture. 7. You shall not abuse children. 8. You shall not hunt an animal to extinction. 9. You shall not commit genocide. 10. You shall not pollute the environment. Thou shalt not tattoo thy body nor mark thy neighborhood with graffiti. |
|
|
|
Post by captainbryce on Jan 31, 2019 20:46:50 GMT
You have yet to respond to any of the passages that endorse slavery! Anytime someone has quoted a verse that endorses slavery, you ignore those verses completely and then counter by twisting some other verse completely unrelated to the INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY into saying something that supports your preconceived idea that slavery is somehow condemned. That is dishonest, and it is in no way a "response" to the quotes I posted. An example of honesty would be you actually explaining the verses that I posted and admitting that they do in fact support slavery. At the very least, you should be explaining how YOU interpret them in a way that they do not condone slavery. But you haven't even done that. Do you know why you haven't done that? Because you CAN'T! And that is the whole point of me using them. And by the way, mercy and justice are contradictory positions. It is nonsensical to claim to honor the values of both mercy AND justice in an equal capacity at the same time because MERCY IS THE SUSPENSION OF JUSTICE! Moreover, according to the Christian paradigm, God offers ZERO mercy on the basis of deeds, and he suspends ALL justice on the basis of faith, which is a completely immoral system. If all Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and atheists go to hell regardless of how "good" they are as people, and all Christians who call on the name of the Lord are saved no matter how evil they are as people, then what you end up with is a perversion of both mercy AND justice! And that is exactly what the bible (and the Church) teaches. I already did. I explained to you that the Hebrew rules for slaves were by far, more lenient than those of their neighbouring countries. God PERMITTED it, but, in reality, did not like it!!! Let's not forget, that He also Allowed Kings David & Solomon to have numerous wives, I’m not interested in discussing your red herrings. The discussion is about slavery. And here you just admitted that God condoned slavery (which is what I’ve been saying the entire time). Thank you for finally being honest and acknowledging the truth. Unfortunately you are still DEFENDING what god did and pretending this is the example of a moral being. The god you worship is an evil monster. You are still defending the slavery he allows by contrasting it against slavery you believe (without any evidence) was worse. And that is the type of moral bankruptcy religion (Christianity specifically) causes. It is either moral to own another human being as property, or it isn’t. And if your god allows that, he is an immoral god. |
|
|
|
Post by clusium on Jan 31, 2019 22:57:44 GMT
I already did. I explained to you that the Hebrew rules for slaves were by far, more lenient than those of their neighbouring countries. God PERMITTED it, but, in reality, did not like it!!! Let's not forget, that He also Allowed Kings David & Solomon to have numerous wives, I’m not interested in discussing your red herrings. The discussion is about slavery. And here you just admitted that God condoned slavery (which is what I’ve been saying the entire time). Thank you for finally being honest and acknowledging the truth. Unfortunately you are still DEFENDING what god did and pretending this is the example of a moral being. The god you worship is an evil monster. You are still defending the slavery he allows by contrasting it against slavery you believe (without any evidence) was worse. And that is the type of moral bankruptcy religion (Christianity specifically) causes. It is either moral to own another human being as property, or it isn’t. And if your god allows that, he is an immoral god. God's Overall Message in the Bible is that we are all His children, & should treat one another with care. Slavery is evil, and the fact that He Reigned down plagues upon the Egyptians Showed how He Truly Felt about it. |
|
|
|
Post by captainbryce on Feb 1, 2019 6:12:16 GMT
I’m not interested in discussing your red herrings. The discussion is about slavery. And here you just admitted that God condoned slavery (which is what I’ve been saying the entire time). Thank you for finally being honest and acknowledging the truth. Unfortunately you are still DEFENDING what god did and pretending this is the example of a moral being. The god you worship is an evil monster. You are still defending the slavery he allows by contrasting it against slavery you believe (without any evidence) was worse. And that is the type of moral bankruptcy religion (Christianity specifically) causes. It is either moral to own another human being as property, or it isn’t. And if your god allows that, he is an immoral god. God's Overall Message in the Bible is that we are all His children, & should treat one another with care. Slavery is evil, and the fact that He Reigned down plagues upon the Egyptians Showed how He Truly Felt about it. Then he failed miserably by allowing slavery on people who weren't the children he liked, pitting one group of his children against the other, placing a lower value on women than he did on men, requiring death for homosexuals, not holding people accountable for their actions, using human sacrifice as a method of atonement for sins against him, instituting infinite punishment for finite crimes, and choosing to relay his method in the most inefficient, ineffective way possible (text), which seems to contradict itself on multiple occasions and ultimately must be interpreted by individuals, instead of leaving any actual direct evidence of his existence or the reliability of that text. The only thing your god did was demonstrate just how much of an incompetent failure he is at "Godding". |
|
|
|
Post by goz on Feb 1, 2019 6:20:44 GMT
God's Overall Message in the Bible is that we are all His children, & should treat one another with care. Slavery is evil, and the fact that He Reigned down plagues upon the Egyptians Showed how He Truly Felt about it. Then he failed miserably by allowing slavery on people who weren't the children he liked, pitting one group of his children against the other, placing a lower value on women than he did on men, requiring death for homosexuals, not holding people accountable for their actions, using human sacrifice as a method of atonement for sins against him, instituting infinite punishment for finite crimes, and choosing to relay his method in the most inefficient, ineffective way possible (text), which seems to contradict itself on multiple occasions and ultimately must be interpreted by individuals, instead of leaving any actual direct evidence of his existence or the reliability of that text. The only thing your god did was demonstrate just how much of an incompetent failure he is at "Godding". I can't believe that people of ' Christian faith' particularly 'Catholic Christian faith' can accept these 'biblical' inconsistencies LET ALONE the more recent disgraceful behaviours of the current creed of Catholics. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2019 13:25:16 GMT
I’m not interested in discussing your red herrings. The discussion is about slavery. And here you just admitted that God condoned slavery (which is what I’ve been saying the entire time). Thank you for finally being honest and acknowledging the truth. Unfortunately you are still DEFENDING what god did and pretending this is the example of a moral being. The god you worship is an evil monster. You are still defending the slavery he allows by contrasting it against slavery you believe (without any evidence) was worse. And that is the type of moral bankruptcy religion (Christianity specifically) causes. It is either moral to own another human being as property, or it isn’t. And if your god allows that, he is an immoral god. God's Overall Message in the Bible is that we are all His children, & should treat one another with care. Slavery is evil, and the fact that He Reigned down plagues upon the Egyptians Showed how He Truly Felt about it. No, the fact that he rained down plagues on Egypt shows that he truly felt that one shouldn't keep his chosen people in slavery. The fact that he then told his chosen people that they could keep slaves themselves, that shows how he truly felt about it. Does it not bother you at all that you've not been able to show a single passage from the bible that condemns slavery? |
|
|
|
Post by Karl Aksel on Feb 1, 2019 14:06:57 GMT
You have yet to respond to any of the passages that endorse slavery! Anytime someone has quoted a verse that endorses slavery, you ignore those verses completely and then counter by twisting some other verse completely unrelated to the INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY into saying something that supports your preconceived idea that slavery is somehow condemned. That is dishonest, and it is in no way a "response" to the quotes I posted. An example of honesty would be you actually explaining the verses that I posted and admitting that they do in fact support slavery. At the very least, you should be explaining how YOU interpret them in a way that they do not condone slavery. But you haven't even done that. Do you know why you haven't done that? Because you CAN'T! And that is the whole point of me using them. And by the way, mercy and justice are contradictory positions. It is nonsensical to claim to honor the values of both mercy AND justice in an equal capacity at the same time because MERCY IS THE SUSPENSION OF JUSTICE! Moreover, according to the Christian paradigm, God offers ZERO mercy on the basis of deeds, and he suspends ALL justice on the basis of faith, which is a completely immoral system. If all Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and atheists go to hell regardless of how "good" they are as people, and all Christians who call on the name of the Lord are saved no matter how evil they are as people, then what you end up with is a perversion of both mercy AND justice! And that is exactly what the bible (and the Church) teaches. I already did. I explained to you that the Hebrew rules for slaves were by far, more lenient than those of their neighbouring countries. God PERMITTED it, but, in reality, did not like it!!! Didn't like it? God didn't like pork, and so forbade it. God didn't like people wearing clothes from different fabrics, so he forbade that. He didn't like farmers plowing with oxen and asses together, so that was something else he forbade. God forbade every practice of which he did not approve. There is absolutely no indication he didn't like slavery, except if it were the enslavement of his own chosen people. Everyone else was fair game. Polygamy is not adultery. Adultery is an extramarital affair, meaning you're being naughty with someone you're not married to. Yes, but unrelated to the practice of polygamy. The Old Testament includes rules for how to legally deal with multiple wives. Not even the New Testament brings any specific prohibition, much less condemnation. Christianity got its monogamy from the pagan Romans. |
|
Farside
Sophomore
@alienwerewolf
Posts: 890
Likes: 232
|
Post by Farside on Feb 1, 2019 19:08:16 GMT
1. You shall not steal. 2. You shall not commit adultery. 3. You shall not use or distribute illegal drugs. 4. You shall not rape. 5. You shall not murder. 6. You shall not torture. 7. You shall not abuse children. 8. You shall not hunt an animal to extinction. 9. You shall not commit genocide. 10. You shall not pollute the environment. not bad.. I would include...kill animals cruelly for food. Animal death should be humane and minimise pain and stress
That's already mentioned in the Noahide laws:
1.Not to worship idols.
2.Not to curse God.
3.To establish courts of justice.
4.Not to commit murder.
5.Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
6.Not to steal.
7.Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.
|
|
|
|
Post by clusium on Feb 2, 2019 0:40:52 GMT
God's Overall Message in the Bible is that we are all His children, & should treat one another with care. Slavery is evil, and the fact that He Reigned down plagues upon the Egyptians Showed how He Truly Felt about it. No, the fact that he rained down plagues on Egypt shows that he truly felt that one shouldn't keep his chosen people in slavery. The fact that he then told his chosen people that they could keep slaves themselves, that shows how he truly felt about it. Does it not bother you at all that you've not been able to show a single passage from the bible that condemns slavery? I showed you guys several times & places where He Condemns it, in particularly, when He Tells His Chosen people *NOT* to oppress the stranger, particularly since they themselves were strangers in Egypt. |
|
|
|
Post by clusium on Feb 2, 2019 0:44:05 GMT
I already did. I explained to you that the Hebrew rules for slaves were by far, more lenient than those of their neighbouring countries. God PERMITTED it, but, in reality, did not like it!!! Didn't like it? God didn't like pork, and so forbade it. God didn't like people wearing clothes from different fabrics, so he forbade that. He didn't like farmers plowing with oxen and asses together, so that was something else he forbade. God forbade every practice of which he did not approve. There is absolutely no indication he didn't like slavery, except if it were the enslavement of his own chosen people. Everyone else was fair game. Polygamy is not adultery. Adultery is an extramarital affair, meaning you're being naughty with someone you're not married to. Yes, but unrelated to the practice of polygamy. The Old Testament includes rules for how to legally deal with multiple wives. Not even the New Testament brings any specific prohibition, much less condemnation. Christianity got its monogamy from the pagan Romans. In the New Testament, God Gives the go ahead for eating pork. Why do you think Christians do not keep kosher laws?  Christ Said in the New Testament that getting divorced & getting remarried to someone else is committing adultery. If getting remarried after divorce is adultery, obviously getting remarried without divorcing the first spouse is adultery too. Don't you think....? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2019 1:04:29 GMT
No, the fact that he rained down plagues on Egypt shows that he truly felt that one shouldn't keep his chosen people in slavery. The fact that he then told his chosen people that they could keep slaves themselves, that shows how he truly felt about it. Does it not bother you at all that you've not been able to show a single passage from the bible that condemns slavery? I showed you guys several times & places where He Condemns it And I showed you that those were not condemnations of slavery. You can't quote a condemnation of slavery from the bible because there is no such thing in the bible. |
|
|
|
Post by captainbryce on Feb 2, 2019 1:04:31 GMT
No, the fact that he rained down plagues on Egypt shows that he truly felt that one shouldn't keep his chosen people in slavery. The fact that he then told his chosen people that they could keep slaves themselves, that shows how he truly felt about it. Does it not bother you at all that you've not been able to show a single passage from the bible that condemns slavery? I showed you guys several times & places where He Condemns it, in particularly, when He Tells His Chosen people *NOT* to oppress the stranger, particularly since they themselves were strangers in Egypt. And we told you several times how that passage has NOTHING TO DO WITH SLAVERY! So you still have nothing. We on the other hand have given you several verses where God condones slavery, and you have yet to address any of them other than to say that God "didn't like it", which is a non answer. |
|
|
|
Post by Karl Aksel on Feb 2, 2019 1:05:48 GMT
Didn't like it? God didn't like pork, and so forbade it. God didn't like people wearing clothes from different fabrics, so he forbade that. He didn't like farmers plowing with oxen and asses together, so that was something else he forbade. God forbade every practice of which he did not approve. There is absolutely no indication he didn't like slavery, except if it were the enslavement of his own chosen people. Everyone else was fair game. Polygamy is not adultery. Adultery is an extramarital affair, meaning you're being naughty with someone you're not married to. Yes, but unrelated to the practice of polygamy. The Old Testament includes rules for how to legally deal with multiple wives. Not even the New Testament brings any specific prohibition, much less condemnation. Christianity got its monogamy from the pagan Romans. In the New Testament, God Gives the go ahead for eating pork. Why do you think Christians do not keep kosher laws? In the New Testament, Paul gives the go-ahead to eat pork. But even if he was acting on divine authority, are you suggesting God changed personalities between the Old and New testaments? No, that doesn't really follow. Jesus said that if you divorced a person (for any reason other than adultery, by the way), and remarried, you'd be committing adultery - the implication being that you'd be committing adultery against your lawfully wedded spouse whom you had divorced. After all, you would then live a married life, but not honour the vows of the one you married first. Another implication is that if you divorce your spouse and retire to a life of celibacy, this does not qualify as adultery. However, Jesus was talking to a monogamous audience, here (polygamy was illegal in the Roman Empire, though some dispensations were occasionally given to Jews), and so there would not be much need to address the issue of polygamous relations. Indeed, if Jesus had meant to include polygamy in his condemnation, there is no reason why he would not have mentioned it. |
|
