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Post by stargazer1682 on Jan 31, 2019 22:35:14 GMT
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Post by flyerzzrul on Feb 1, 2019 4:18:22 GMT
And yet Angel, a far better show than all of them, was cancelled in it's prime
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Post by stargazer1682 on Feb 1, 2019 4:38:50 GMT
And yet Angel, a far better show than all of them, was cancelled in it's prime That was arguably Joss' fault. The show was doing well - I think it might have even seen an uptick in ratings, or at least was consistently strong - and there was no indication they wouldn't have been renewed at the usual time, it was just later than what Joss wanted, so he could plan ahead; so he pushed for an earlier answer and they said no. I'm not certain, but I kind of want to say the network may have even wanted to reconsider that decision later, but by that point it may have been too late. I may be mistaken on that part, but the general consensus is that it was very much because Joss tried pressing for an early renewal; and the executive making the decision didn't want to make the commitment or backed into a corner.
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Post by dazz on Feb 1, 2019 10:12:04 GMT
And yet Angel, a far better show than all of them, was cancelled in it's prime That was arguably Joss' fault. The show was doing well - I think it might have even seen an uptick in ratings, or at least was consistently strong - and there was no indication they wouldn't have been renewed at the usual time, it was just later than what Joss wanted, so he could plan ahead; so he pushed for an earlier answer and they said no. I'm not certain, but I kind of want to say the network may have even wanted to reconsider that decision later, but by that point it may have been too late. I may be mistaken on that part, but the general consensus is that it was very much because Joss tried pressing for an early renewal; and the executive making the decision didn't want to make the commitment or backed into a corner. The way I heard it Joss assumed...presumed? he ssummed something that the show was a lock for S6, then he made comments in the press about it and the executive in charge at the time took offense to his presumptuousness, why I have no idea, could be he felt Joss was being too cocky, maybe it interfered with negotiations they had ongoing or maybe the guy in charge just didn't like Joss, but I heard someone say it wasn't too dissimilar to why Joey had his character killed off the show he was on in Friends, he said something he didn't pissed someone off and they took drastic means in response.
Also different networks with different standards at very different times in the industry, CW due to the international markets can make a lot of money from shows with almost no domestic audiences, and the CW shows generally are very popular internationally, so they make a lot of money for the network and for WB in general, which is the other thing WB owns all the Arrowverse properties entirely so they make the money off of the merch and licensing, where as Joss retained atleast some rights to the Buffy & Angel properties and as such would always be in line for atleast a cut of that cash.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Feb 1, 2019 15:32:56 GMT
Let's be honest. The last couple season's of Angel were not up to the previous standards and it was probably time for the show to go anyway.
I'm very happy about the entire Arrowverse and Black Lightning being renewed. I also watch Legacies and Charmed (though neither is very good so far) so good for them too.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Feb 1, 2019 16:03:40 GMT
Let's be honest. The last couple season's of Angel were not up to the previous standards and it was probably time for the show to go anyway. I'm very happy about the entire Arrowverse and Black Lightning being renewed. I also watch Legacies and Charmed (though neither is very good so far) so good for them too. I don't agree with that at all. Season 4 wasn't great, but 5 was awesome and definitely back up to par. And I'm fairly certain the ratings were rock solid, which is why it's cancellation came as such a shock; and the fault is placed primarily on Joss for pushing the early renewal.
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Post by dazz on Feb 1, 2019 16:21:31 GMT
Let's be honest. The last couple season's of Angel were not up to the previous standards and it was probably time for the show to go anyway. I'm very happy about the entire Arrowverse and Black Lightning being renewed. I also watch Legacies and Charmed (though neither is very good so far) so good for them too. I don't agree with that at all. Season 4 wasn't great, but 5 was awesome and definitely back up to par. And I'm fairly certain the ratings were rock solid, which is why it's cancellation came as such a shock; and the fault is placed primarily on Joss for pushing the early renewal. I agree 4 was blegh but 5 was pretty fucking awesome, I mean puppet angel, PUPPET ANGEL!!!
How can you not love that shit?
Plus Spike & Angel's pettiness with each other always cracks me up.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Feb 1, 2019 17:09:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2019 13:01:28 GMT
I don't agree with that at all. Season 4 wasn't great, but 5 was awesome and definitely back up to par. And I'm fairly certain the ratings were rock solid, which is why it's cancellation came as such a shock; and the fault is placed primarily on Joss for pushing the early renewal. I agree 4 was blegh but 5 was pretty fucking awesome, I mean puppet angel, PUPPET ANGEL!!!
How can you not love that shit?
Plus Spike & Angel's pettiness with each other always cracks me up.
Was Season 4 really that bad? We just re-watched it on DVD and are re-watching Season 5 now and I think Season 5 was better than Season 4 but while there were a lot of disappointing things in Season 4 I still think there were some good episodes and I liked Gwen and would have liked to have found out more about her powers and where she came from. She was very much what they call a metahuman in the 'Arrowverse' shows and I was surprised they didn't keep her around for Season 5 and had her join the team since they lost Cordelia and could have made her the second female lead after Fred. Two of the main things I liked about Season 4 was Faith coming back and I liked the episodes she was in the most and I liked some of their fights with the Beast and having them fight an almost unstoppable villain but the way they got rid of him was really disappointing.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Feb 3, 2019 15:11:19 GMT
I agree 4 was blegh but 5 was pretty fucking awesome, I mean puppet angel, PUPPET ANGEL!!!
How can you not love that shit?
Plus Spike & Angel's pettiness with each other always cracks me up.
Was Season 4 really that bad? We just re-watched it on DVD and are re-watching Season 5 now and I think Season 5 was better than Season 4 but while there were a lot of disappointing things in Season 4 I still think there were some good episodes and I liked Gwen and would have liked to have found out more about her powers and where she came from. She was very much what they call a metahuman in the 'Arrowverse' shows and I was surprised they didn't keep her around for Season 5 and had her join the team since they lost Cordelia and could have made her the second female lead after Fred. Two of the main things I liked about Season 4 was Faith coming back and I liked the episodes she was in the most and I liked some of their fights with the Beast and having them fight an almost unstoppable villain but the way they got rid of him was really disappointing. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of good moments in season 4; and you mentioned several of them, but it was so all over the place and the general arc was dull and dreary. Connor was at his absolute worst; "Cordelia" wasn't much better entertainment-wise. I mean, I get that it turns out not to really be Cordelia in the drivers seat, but it was just sort of jarring; the writing feels disjointed. Her screwing Connor just seems out of the blue and really forced. Definitely would be my lowest ranked season of the series, but still ranks higher than say, Season 6 of Buffy; or even weaker seasons of any of the Arrowverse shows.
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Post by dazz on Feb 3, 2019 15:30:05 GMT
I agree 4 was blegh but 5 was pretty fucking awesome, I mean puppet angel, PUPPET ANGEL!!!
How can you not love that shit?
Plus Spike & Angel's pettiness with each other always cracks me up.
Was Season 4 really that bad? We just re-watched it on DVD and are re-watching Season 5 now and I think Season 5 was better than Season 4 but while there were a lot of disappointing things in Season 4 I still think there were some good episodes and I liked Gwen and would have liked to have found out more about her powers and where she came from. She was very much what they call a metahuman in the 'Arrowverse' shows and I was surprised they didn't keep her around for Season 5 and had her join the team since they lost Cordelia and could have made her the second female lead after Fred. Two of the main things I liked about Season 4 was Faith coming back and I liked the episodes she was in the most and I liked some of their fights with the Beast and having them fight an almost unstoppable villain but the way they got rid of him was really disappointing. Yeah it was, though there were fun parts, I did like The Beast at first until they make him a flunky, but so much was just blegh, like the pay off between the Angelus & Beast connection is they had a conversation once a hundred or so years back, the totems were rushed through and could have been a interesting arc, Connor was just unimaginably annoying at all times, Charisma as Jasmine was fucking horrendous all around imo, not just storyline but her acting and delivery was dogshit throughout, the actual Jasmine storyline and character wasn't much better either.
I agree I liked Faith's return and had they let her be more a part of the season I think it could have been a big help, Gwen was also a fun character but underused and imo either Faith or Gwen should have joined Angel in S5 like you said, I would prefer Faith but Eliza wanted to do something else so went to her own show Tru Calling...anyone ever watch that, I got it on DVD, was kind of fun wish it would have lasted longer because well I love Eliza and as watching it for her...anyway like Stargazer said a bunch of fun elements doesn't override a crap season, I mean I love mint sauce I have it on every roast dinner, but you put it on a cat turd it's still a cat turd, it still taste like shit, that's what S4 of Angel was imo.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 12:45:38 GMT
Was Season 4 really that bad? We just re-watched it on DVD and are re-watching Season 5 now and I think Season 5 was better than Season 4 but while there were a lot of disappointing things in Season 4 I still think there were some good episodes and I liked Gwen and would have liked to have found out more about her powers and where she came from. She was very much what they call a metahuman in the 'Arrowverse' shows and I was surprised they didn't keep her around for Season 5 and had her join the team since they lost Cordelia and could have made her the second female lead after Fred. Two of the main things I liked about Season 4 was Faith coming back and I liked the episodes she was in the most and I liked some of their fights with the Beast and having them fight an almost unstoppable villain but the way they got rid of him was really disappointing. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of good moments in season 4; and you mentioned several of them, but it was so all over the place and the general arc was dull and dreary. Connor was at his absolute worst; "Cordelia" wasn't much better entertainment-wise. I mean, I get that it turns out not to really be Cordelia in the drivers seat, but it was just sort of jarring; the writing feels disjointed. Her screwing Connor just seems out of the blue and really forced. Definitely would be my lowest ranked season of the series, but still ranks higher than say, Season 6 of Buffy; or even weaker seasons of any of the Arrowverse shows. Yeah. It was and you can really see how it was all over the place with the way it kept changing throughout that season up until the end with Jasmine and Connor going crazy and trying to kill all those people and do you know if Connor was always meant to go crazy like that when they first introduced him as a baby in Season 3 or they had other plans for him 'cause I think they always planned to age him but they might have had something else in mind for him. Seeing him get his memories back in Season 5 and come back to help Angel makes me think if Season 6 had happened he would have returned full time or as a reoccurring character at the least who started to get along with his Father and helped him fight evil. I agree with you about Cordelia and her sleeping with Connor was sick and twisted in a way 'cause he was only a baby not long before that and she was the closest thing he had to a Mother as Angel said but it wasn't Cordelia in the driver's seat and I doubt the real Cordy would have done that.
We have finished watching all of 'Angel' now and I am still kinda disappointed over the ending and what they did with Fred and I think they should have made it that Fred and Illyria shared the same body and could go back and forth and not Fred being gone with Illyria in her body and what was the big purpose of Illyria? Was she going to be a big part of the following season?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 12:53:00 GMT
Was Season 4 really that bad? We just re-watched it on DVD and are re-watching Season 5 now and I think Season 5 was better than Season 4 but while there were a lot of disappointing things in Season 4 I still think there were some good episodes and I liked Gwen and would have liked to have found out more about her powers and where she came from. She was very much what they call a metahuman in the 'Arrowverse' shows and I was surprised they didn't keep her around for Season 5 and had her join the team since they lost Cordelia and could have made her the second female lead after Fred. Two of the main things I liked about Season 4 was Faith coming back and I liked the episodes she was in the most and I liked some of their fights with the Beast and having them fight an almost unstoppable villain but the way they got rid of him was really disappointing. Yeah it was, though there were fun parts, I did like The Beast at first until they make him a flunky, but so much was just blegh, like the pay off between the Angelus & Beast connection is they had a conversation once a hundred or so years back, the totems were rushed through and could have been a interesting arc, Connor was just unimaginably annoying at all times, Charisma as Jasmine was fucking horrendous all around imo, not just storyline but her acting and delivery was dogshit throughout, the actual Jasmine storyline and character wasn't much better either.
I agree I liked Faith's return and had they let her be more a part of the season I think it could have been a big help, Gwen was also a fun character but underused and imo either Faith or Gwen should have joined Angel in S5 like you said, I would prefer Faith but Eliza wanted to do something else so went to her own show Tru Calling...anyone ever watch that, I got it on DVD, was kind of fun wish it would have lasted longer because well I love Eliza and as watching it for her...anyway like Stargazer said a bunch of fun elements doesn't override a crap season, I mean I love mint sauce I have it on every roast dinner, but you put it on a cat turd it's still a cat turd, it still taste like shit, that's what S4 of Angel was imo.
Yeah. The Beast looked like he could have been a good villain to begin with and I remember the rumours that he was Lucifer and was going to bring hell on earth to the show and all that was tossed away when they revealed he was just a flunky who was working for possessed Cordelia and I wonder what the season would have been like if they had him turn out to be Lucifer instead and he had all these other demons turn up to help him. I am surprised 'Buffy' and 'Angel' never had Lucifer or any angels in the shows and they could have done something along the lines of 'Supernatural' but better handled with good and bad angels and a funny thing I recently heard was Angel was originally named Angel 'cause he was going to be an Angel that was cast out of heaven after doing some bad things and he had to live on earth and fight evil to make up for the bad things he did for God to accept him back into heaven but Joss changed his mind and made him a vampire with a soul which I think was partly influenced by the first 'Subspecies' movie having a vampire with a concious. Would you have liked to have seen angels and Lucifer in 'Buffy' like they have had in 'Supernatural?'
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Post by dazz on Feb 23, 2019 21:08:29 GMT
Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of good moments in season 4; and you mentioned several of them, but it was so all over the place and the general arc was dull and dreary. Connor was at his absolute worst; "Cordelia" wasn't much better entertainment-wise. I mean, I get that it turns out not to really be Cordelia in the drivers seat, but it was just sort of jarring; the writing feels disjointed. Her screwing Connor just seems out of the blue and really forced. Definitely would be my lowest ranked season of the series, but still ranks higher than say, Season 6 of Buffy; or even weaker seasons of any of the Arrowverse shows. Yeah. It was and you can really see how it was all over the place with the way it kept changing throughout that season up until the end with Jasmine and Connor going crazy and trying to kill all those people and do you know if Connor was always meant to go crazy like that when they first introduced him as a baby in Season 3 or they had other plans for him 'cause I think they always planned to age him but they might have had something else in mind for him. Seeing him get his memories back in Season 5 and come back to help Angel makes me think if Season 6 had happened he would have returned full time or as a reoccurring character at the least who started to get along with his Father and helped him fight evil. I agree with you about Cordelia and her sleeping with Connor was sick and twisted in a way 'cause he was only a baby not long before that and she was the closest thing he had to a Mother as Angel said but it wasn't Cordelia in the driver's seat and I doubt the real Cordy would have done that.
We have finished watching all of 'Angel' now and I am still kinda disappointed over the ending and what they did with Fred and I think they should have made it that Fred and Illyria shared the same body and could go back and forth and not Fred being gone with Illyria in her body and what was the big purpose of Illyria? Was she going to be a big part of the following season? In hindsight I agree Illyria served no great purpose in the show, so why kill Fred to make room for Illyria? But I do think it was because she was meant to have a bigger part to play or a more vital part in the next season, I mean Angel declared all out war on Wolfram & Hart and they set a dragon after him for heavens sake, Fred's awesome and all but she cant take no dragon down.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Feb 23, 2019 21:35:02 GMT
Yeah. It was and you can really see how it was all over the place with the way it kept changing throughout that season up until the end with Jasmine and Connor going crazy and trying to kill all those people and do you know if Connor was always meant to go crazy like that when they first introduced him as a baby in Season 3 or they had other plans for him 'cause I think they always planned to age him but they might have had something else in mind for him. Seeing him get his memories back in Season 5 and come back to help Angel makes me think if Season 6 had happened he would have returned full time or as a reoccurring character at the least who started to get along with his Father and helped him fight evil. I agree with you about Cordelia and her sleeping with Connor was sick and twisted in a way 'cause he was only a baby not long before that and she was the closest thing he had to a Mother as Angel said but it wasn't Cordelia in the driver's seat and I doubt the real Cordy would have done that.
We have finished watching all of 'Angel' now and I am still kinda disappointed over the ending and what they did with Fred and I think they should have made it that Fred and Illyria shared the same body and could go back and forth and not Fred being gone with Illyria in her body and what was the big purpose of Illyria? Was she going to be a big part of the following season? In hindsight I agree Illyria served no great purpose in the show, so why kill Fred to make room for Illyria? But I do think it was because she was meant to have a bigger part to play or a more vital part in the next season, I mean Angel declared all out war on Wolfram & Hart and they set a dragon after him for heavens sake, Fred's awesome and all but she cant take no dragon down.
I don't agree that Ilyria was pointless; there's a lot of heft to that whole arc that are worth the price of admission alone and Amy Acker killed it through the whole thing. I mean, starting with "You are my sunshine," up to "Would you like me to lie to you now" - then transforming mid-punch from Fred back into Ilyria. I would expect had the series continued, they might have done more with plumbing the depths of Ilyria and what it means for her to be in Fred's body and have her memories. I've always thought there's a great deal to explore just with the concept of identity; and if Ilyria has access to so much of what made Fred, Fred, does something of her potentially survive? But it also brought the season into sharper focus; it underscored the reality of the world they stepped into and that they were obviously kidding themselves to think they could change it instead of the other way around. It brought the team back together and gave it purpose; and that little thread of Gunn unwittingly being the one at fault was great. From what I've read, the idea was mainly rooted in Joss knowing what Amy could bring as an actor and wanting to explore a different facet of her range; and I can't say I blame him, because she did such an amazing job.
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Post by dazz on Feb 23, 2019 22:02:46 GMT
In hindsight I agree Illyria served no great purpose in the show, so why kill Fred to make room for Illyria? But I do think it was because she was meant to have a bigger part to play or a more vital part in the next season, I mean Angel declared all out war on Wolfram & Hart and they set a dragon after him for heavens sake, Fred's awesome and all but she cant take no dragon down.
I don't agree that Ilyria was pointless; there's a lot of heft to that whole arc that are worth the price of admission alone and Amy Acker killed it through the whole thing. I mean, starting with "You are my sunshine," up to "Would you like me to lie to you now" - then transforming mid-punch from Fred back into Ilyria. I would expect had the series continued, they might have done more with plumbing the depths of Ilyria and what it means for her to be in Fred's body and have her memories. I've always thought there's a great deal to explore just with the concept of identity; and if Ilyria has access to so much of what made Fred, Fred, does something of her potentially survive? But it also brought the season into sharper focus; it underscored the reality of the world they stepped into and that they were obviously kidding themselves to think they could change it instead of the other way around. It brought the team back together and gave it purpose; and that little thread of Gunn unwittingly being the one at fault was great. From what I've read, the idea was mainly rooted in Joss knowing what Amy could bring as an actor and wanting to explore a different facet of her range; and I can't say I blame him, because she did such an amazing job. I should have been more clear, Illyria being a separate character to Fred imo had no great impact on the show that couldn't have been achieved without killing "Fred" outright, like had Illyria retained part of Fred's personality or spirit, which we learned about later it would have achieved the same ends, except kept "Fred" alive, which would have also been more interesting for S6 had they got it.
Also would have made for a great threat in the end if Illyria later purged what remained of Fred from her body say if they got S6 but it was to be their last, so the final enemy would be Illyria, but yeah Amy did an incredible job, to the point in my head before I rewatched the series I forgot Amy was still on the show, I just remembered Fred died and I loved her character, so when I then saw the episode where she dies and Illyria is reborn I got happy because oh yeah Amy isn't going anywhere she just has to endure hours of make up everyday, hooray.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2019 11:06:09 GMT
Aww iZombie is gone...well to be fair, it was becoming less interesting, to me anyway. I will miss all her personalities. RIP Liv
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2019 12:11:49 GMT
Yeah. It was and you can really see how it was all over the place with the way it kept changing throughout that season up until the end with Jasmine and Connor going crazy and trying to kill all those people and do you know if Connor was always meant to go crazy like that when they first introduced him as a baby in Season 3 or they had other plans for him 'cause I think they always planned to age him but they might have had something else in mind for him. Seeing him get his memories back in Season 5 and come back to help Angel makes me think if Season 6 had happened he would have returned full time or as a reoccurring character at the least who started to get along with his Father and helped him fight evil. I agree with you about Cordelia and her sleeping with Connor was sick and twisted in a way 'cause he was only a baby not long before that and she was the closest thing he had to a Mother as Angel said but it wasn't Cordelia in the driver's seat and I doubt the real Cordy would have done that.
We have finished watching all of 'Angel' now and I am still kinda disappointed over the ending and what they did with Fred and I think they should have made it that Fred and Illyria shared the same body and could go back and forth and not Fred being gone with Illyria in her body and what was the big purpose of Illyria? Was she going to be a big part of the following season? In hindsight I agree Illyria served no great purpose in the show, so why kill Fred to make room for Illyria? But I do think it was because she was meant to have a bigger part to play or a more vital part in the next season, I mean Angel declared all out war on Wolfram & Hart and they set a dragon after him for heavens sake, Fred's awesome and all but she cant take no dragon down.
I think you might be right about that but didn't they know the show was being cancelled before they filmed that episode? I thought Joss found that out fairly early when he asked for an early renewal for 'Angel' that it was going to be cancelled and Joss changed the plans and decided to end it continued 'cause he was angry over it but I am not sure. I think after they killed Cordelia off they should have let Fred live 'cause they were killing too many characters off. Yes, it was still the same actress playing the role so they didn't get rid of Amy Acker but Fred should have stayed up until the end. I wonder what Season 6 would have been like if it had went through and if Wesley would have been killed off or not. I read somewhere Adam Baldwin's character was meant to stay on longer and play a bigger role and Gunn was going to become a vampire and lead a gang of vampires after them until they gave him back his soul.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2019 12:22:16 GMT
In hindsight I agree Illyria served no great purpose in the show, so why kill Fred to make room for Illyria? But I do think it was because she was meant to have a bigger part to play or a more vital part in the next season, I mean Angel declared all out war on Wolfram & Hart and they set a dragon after him for heavens sake, Fred's awesome and all but she cant take no dragon down.
I don't agree that Ilyria was pointless; there's a lot of heft to that whole arc that are worth the price of admission alone and Amy Acker killed it through the whole thing. I mean, starting with "You are my sunshine," up to "Would you like me to lie to you now" - then transforming mid-punch from Fred back into Ilyria. I would expect had the series continued, they might have done more with plumbing the depths of Ilyria and what it means for her to be in Fred's body and have her memories. I've always thought there's a great deal to explore just with the concept of identity; and if Ilyria has access to so much of what made Fred, Fred, does something of her potentially survive? But it also brought the season into sharper focus; it underscored the reality of the world they stepped into and that they were obviously kidding themselves to think they could change it instead of the other way around. It brought the team back together and gave it purpose; and that little thread of Gunn unwittingly being the one at fault was great. From what I've read, the idea was mainly rooted in Joss knowing what Amy could bring as an actor and wanting to explore a different facet of her range; and I can't say I blame him, because she did such an amazing job. I agree with that stargazer about Amy Acker doing a good job of playing Ilyria and she was completely different than Fred and I was wondering if you have read the 'Fallen Angel/ Ilyria comic books by Peter David? 'Fallen Angel' was the unofficial continuation to the Supergirl/Linda Danvers series and the main character Liandra Lee was mean to be Linda Danvers when she was older but Peter was never able to confirm it when the series moved to IDW. Ilyria appeared in the series (as seen below) and still had Fred's body and I read Joss was a fan of 'Fallen Angel' and if 'Angel' continued we have got Liandra on the show and they could have used it to launch a 'Fallen Angel' TV show which could have been awesome. Did you see Amy Acker in 'Alias?' She played a very similar type of character to Fred who worked with Rachel at first but then turned out to be a very nasty villain.
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