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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 1, 2019 19:27:58 GMT
OK, this went nowhere fast on the music board, so at the risk of adding to my ever-growing list of INTK questions, I hope somewhere here will be interested… In Stephen Sondheim’s Finishing the Hat, he has a fascinating introduction about the reasons for and craft of rhyming, and he makes a passionate and (I think) ironclad case for perfect (i.e., actual) rhymes in lyric-writing. Anyway, he contrasts his case with an argument made by another songwriter, whom he describes as “one of pop music’s most successful lyricists,” who “ventured out of pop into musical theater once—and with a hit show, I might add.” That lyricist made the following argument: The problem is that Sondheim never identifies this other songwriter, only referring to him (or her) as “X.” So, does anyone have any idea who “X” might be? Several online commenters thought it may be The Who’s Pete Townshend, who wrote a single hit musical, The Who’s Tommy (1992). I really have no idea. Thanks in advance. |
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Post by BATouttaheck on Feb 1, 2019 19:59:29 GMT
"I’m not a great believer in perfect rhymes. I’m just a believer in feelings that come across. " sounds like Lerner but without the pop … NOT knocking the train off of the track … yet ! Should prove to be another great search ! , Nalkarj |
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 1, 2019 20:03:31 GMT
"I’m not a great believer in perfect rhymes. I’m just a believer in feelings that come across. " sounds like Lerner but without the pop … NOT knocking the train off of the track … yet ! Should prove to be another great search ! , Nalkarj Well, Lerner’s rhymes mostly work—it’s mostly just the bad grammar that annoys me (largely because Porter, Berlin, Hammerstein, Sondheim, et al., have rhymes that work and well-written, grammatical lyrics). But I’d rather listen to an ungrammatical Lerner lyric than a modern pop lyric that both doesn’t rhyme and has horrible subject-matter. (Prime example: the story I told about being in the cab, and the song on the radio rhymed “sexy” and “get me” and was overall just dumb and banal.) |
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 1, 2019 20:07:51 GMT
^^^Lerner, by the way, was a protégé of the great Lorenz Hart, one of my favorite lyricists (though Sondheim tears him to pieces in Finishing the Hat!). Hart’s stuff (“The Lady is a Tramp,” “Manhattan,” “My Funny Valentine,” “Isn’t It Romantic?,” “Falling in Love with Love,” “I Wish I Were in Love Again,” among many others) is just so fun and witty and clever (and mostly grammatical!) that I think Sondheim is mostly nitpicking in criticizing him. But, then, I guess that’s what I was doing with poor Lerner.
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Post by BATouttaheck on Feb 1, 2019 20:11:10 GMT
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 1, 2019 20:47:02 GMT
At the risk of hijacking my own thread to make it the “Lorenz Hart Appreciation Thread,” I found a really good piece on his craft here. |
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Post by Doghouse6 on Feb 4, 2019 0:02:54 GMT
Nalkarj - Gonna make two guesses. First guess: Sondheim isn't likely to have referred to Pete Townshend as "one of pop music most successful lyricists." Not meaning to imply or infer any professional disrespect toward Townshend on his part; it just sounds "off" for someone of Sondheim's bailiwick. Second guess: Could he be referring to Hal David? One original B'way musical: Promises, Promises; ran for four years and won numerous awards, including two Tonys. Songs from David's trunk were used in two later reviews, so they don't count as ventures into musical theater. In looking for info to back up my guess, however, I haven't yet come across any attribution to him of Sondheim's quote, nor can I think off the top of my head of lyrics that would illustrate it. For that matter, David's lyrics are full of examples of "true rhymes." 'Course, the anonymous songwriter didn't say he didn't use them, just that he hated them. Such as they are Those are my thoughts Whether worth a cigar Or a whole lotta naughts
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 4, 2019 0:48:18 GMT
Thanks so much for the exhaustive analysis, Doghouse6! There are a couple of threads on different forums that give Townshend and David as the top possibilities, so it may very well be David… The only think may be that “X” sounds a bit more modern—no? Somewhat like a rock songwriter? Someone suggested that Michael Riedel may be the interviewer, which sounds about right to me. The problem is that I can’t find any attribution anywhere either. I highly doubt Sondheim made up the quote, so…oh well. No idea. |
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Post by BATouttaheck on Feb 4, 2019 5:27:20 GMT
despaireth thou not … all shall become clear …. just not yet !
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 24, 2020 19:53:15 GMT
Stumbled on a new candidate for this who I think is promising: late Earth, Wind & Fire songwriter Allee Willis.
Successful pop lyricist, check.
Ventured into musical theater only once, check.
That one musical (The Color Purple, 2005; Sondheim’s book is 2010, two years after Purple finished its run) was a hit, check.
According to a recent article, said, “Never let the lyric get in the way of the groove,” which sounds like how Songwriter X spoke in the quotation.
It still may be Townshend, but Willis seems like a compelling candidate. I don’t feel it’s David, most of whose rhymes actually rhyme.
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Feb 24, 2020 20:12:16 GMT
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Feb 24, 2020 20:16:01 GMT
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 24, 2020 20:22:58 GMT
Thanks, Prez, but Sondheim’s book is 2010, so I think American Idiot is too late for it... (I’m also not sure that Sondheim would know Green Day!) |
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Feb 24, 2020 20:26:18 GMT
Thanks, Prez, but Sondheim’s book is 2010, so I think American Idiot is too late for it... (I’m also not sure that Sondheim would know Green Day!) nope AI premiered in sep 09 and on broadway april 10 the book coming out oct 10 makes this one even more likely ( imho )
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Post by Nalkarj on Feb 24, 2020 20:40:51 GMT
Thanks, Prez, but Sondheim’s book is 2010, so I think American Idiot is too late for it... (I’m also not sure that Sondheim would know Green Day!) nope AI premiered in sep 09 and on broadway april 10 the book coming out oct 10 makes this one even more likely ( imho ) Right. I’m not sure how long it took for Finishing the Hat to be published, but it would be cutting it awfully close if Sondheim heard the comments after American Idiot came out and became a hit (Sondheim says the show was a hit), then managed to get them into the book. It’s not impossible, I’m just not convinced. Of course, if we can track down Armstrong saying the actual quote, that solves the mystery. |
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