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Post by audiosane on Feb 9, 2019 1:58:24 GMT
Probably because many or most of us who talk about it live in North America. Whenever slavery is brought up in the U.S.A., we almost always only focus on our country. However, I made sure to include South America, the Caribbean, etc. because I wanted to cover the Western Hemisphere. You didn't include Africa Okay. Let me be more specific then. I was focusing primarily on the Americas and the Caribbean. Not Europe or Africa.
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Post by ant-mac on Feb 9, 2019 1:58:53 GMT
Yes, without hesitation. Why should American culture, American history or American life play any part in my decision-making process? Or, for that matter, any factors that might affect my own country...? Whether it does or doesn't play a role in your decision-making process is ultimately up to you. I was simply naming a few areas where things would radically change. Yes, I was simply stating my approach to making such a decision.
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Post by audiosane on Feb 9, 2019 2:26:32 GMT
I hate to say this, and I expect I'll get some hate for it, but if I had a time machine and could go back in time I would NOT undo anything in the past. Anything at all. Here's the problem...
How do you know what you'll be changing it to? How do you know you wont make things INFINITELY worse? How do you know you wont create a paradox of some kind and fuck EVERYTHING up?
That's the point of ALL time travel stories. Don't mess with history because there's always price to pay and that price is often worse.
HOWEVER...
If you mean that I'm a god like being and can change time and history with my god like powers... then yes, of course. Because with my god like powers I would be able to control any negative effects and consequences. I would be able to course correct.
But its never that easy. You've raised some great points. What I mean by having god like powers is that you can only undo the African slave trade. You have zero control over what happens next. What I don't like about time travel stories is that they almost always focus only on "changing the past = bad". I understand the precaution, but that mentality feels so limiting. Most of these stories simply find ways to get things back to normal again instead of really exploring the good and bad of having to deal with change. Well, at least Marty McFly made his family cooler. What's really the case is "changing the past = unknown consequences". Unknown can be either good or bad. In all likelihood, any major change to history will be a mixed bag.
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Post by audiosane on Feb 9, 2019 2:26:56 GMT
Whether it does or doesn't play a role in your decision-making process is ultimately up to you. I was simply naming a few areas where things would radically change. Yes, I was simply stating my approach to making such a decision. Oh, okay.
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Post by audiosane on Feb 9, 2019 2:28:41 GMT
I hate to say this, and I expect I'll get some hate for it, but if I had a time machine and could go back in time I would NOT undo anything in the past. Anything at all. Here's the problem...
How do you know what you'll be changing it to? How do you know you wont make things INFINITELY worse? How do you know you wont create a paradox of some kind and fuck EVERYTHING up?
That's the point of ALL time travel stories. Don't mess with history because there's always price to pay and that price is often worse.
HOWEVER...
If you mean that I'm a god like being and can change time and history with my god like powers... then yes, of course. Because with my god like powers I would be able to control any negative effects and consequences. I would be able to course correct.
But its never that easy. What I'm saying is... what if you make the change and you think its going to turn out great. At first it may even seem so.
But a hundred years later "the Americas" are not doing too well because they don't have free slave labor to rely on. Without the unifying power of free money the Americas fracture into smaller states. The states never becomes the United States of America. Instead the continent becomes like Europe, several separate countries on one land mass, each in conflict with one another for dominance in the region. Wars rage between them.
Some of those American countries still need and want slaves. Maybe all of them. So what do they do? They go looking for other sources of slaves. Who do they find? Their old targets... the Native American Indian. They stop wiping them out and instead keep them as slaves. This is not a better situation for the native.
But they'd been killing them for so long that there aren't quite enough of them. They need more. So what do they do? They go south. To South America. Lots of indigenous people down there. Wars with what would become Mexican territories start even earlier then they did irl. Tons of natives are taken slave.
These warring American countries come into conflict with other countries. No Canada. No Mexico. No Central American nations. Soon enough Europe becomes embroiled as the fledgling nation seeks alliances with the greater powers of Europe. Germany, France, Spain and the United Kingdom in particular are at one another's throats because they all had interests in the Americas. Each one wants their American allied country to become the dominant force. The wars rage on.
In fact World War One starts much earlier that irl and includes many naval conflicts. The Atlantic Ocean is all fucked up. But sooner or later some group of these countries gets the upper hand on the other group and they are "occupied".
The natives in all this mess are effed up. And the new wars that start are all civil wars. Wars where the people rise up against their occupiers. Except it wont be in one country, it will be in all the little countries that are occupied...
Oh, I could go on and on and on. The entire world is just embroiled in unending conflict because everyone wants the resources of the New World, and those in the New World want independence. The Native is all but wiped out. The human misery is all but constant.
And don't forget that amidst all this there other factors as well, such as diseases that wipe out entire populations. Unforeseen events in which countries and continents that have nothing to do with this, such as South America, Africa and Asia, become mixed up in this, further stirring the pot.
All that war and misery, hundreds of years of unending conflict going on til this very day, all because you changed one thing. The history books could look MUCH worse than what we know now.
Thank you for taking the time to write all that! Interesting food for thought.
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Post by them1ghtyhumph on Feb 9, 2019 4:29:43 GMT
I hate to say this, and I expect I'll get some hate for it, but if I had a time machine and could go back in time I would NOT undo anything in the past. Anything at all. Here's the problem...
How do you know what you'll be changing it to? How do you know you wont make things INFINITELY worse? How do you know you wont create a paradox of some kind and fuck EVERYTHING up?
That's the point of ALL time travel stories. Don't mess with history because there's always price to pay and that price is often worse.
HOWEVER...
If you mean that I'm a god like being and can change time and history with my god like powers... then yes, of course. Because with my god like powers I would be able to control any negative effects and consequences. I would be able to course correct.
But its never that easy. What I'm saying is... what if you make the change and you think its going to turn out great. At first it may even seem so.
But a hundred years later "the Americas" are not doing too well because they don't have free slave labor to rely on. Without the unifying power of free money the Americas fracture into smaller states. The states never becomes the United States of America. Instead the continent becomes like Europe, several separate countries on one land mass, each in conflict with one another for dominance in the region. Wars rage between them.
Some of those American countries still need and want slaves. Maybe all of them. So what do they do? They go looking for other sources of slaves. Who do they find? Their old targets... the Native American Indian. They stop wiping them out and instead keep them as slaves. This is not a better situation for the native.
But they'd been killing them for so long that there aren't quite enough of them. They need more. So what do they do? They go south. To South America. Lots of indigenous people down there. Wars with what would become Mexican territories start even earlier then they did irl. Tons of natives are taken slave.
These warring American countries come into conflict with other countries. No Canada. No Mexico. No Central American nations. Soon enough Europe becomes embroiled as the fledgling nation seeks alliances with the greater powers of Europe. Germany, France, Spain and the United Kingdom in particular are at one another's throats because they all had interests in the Americas. Each one wants their American allied country to become the dominant force. The wars rage on.
In fact World War One starts much earlier that irl and includes many naval conflicts. The Atlantic Ocean is all fucked up. But sooner or later some group of these countries gets the upper hand on the other group and they are "occupied".
The natives in all this mess are effed up. And the new wars that start are all civil wars. Wars where the people rise up against their occupiers. Except it wont be in one country, it will be in all the little countries that are occupied...
Oh, I could go on and on and on. The entire world is just embroiled in unending conflict because everyone wants the resources of the New World, and those in the New World want independence. The Native is all but wiped out. The human misery is all but constant.
And don't forget that amidst all this there other factors as well, such as diseases that wipe out entire populations. Unforeseen events in which countries and continents that have nothing to do with this, such as South America, Africa and Asia, become mixed up in this, further stirring the pot.
All that war and misery, hundreds of years of unending conflict going on til this very day, all because you changed one thing. The history books could look MUCH worse than what we know now.
A very nice tale, but pure conjecture
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Feb 9, 2019 4:50:36 GMT
What I'm saying is... what if you make the change and you think its going to turn out great. At first it may even seem so.
But a hundred years later "the Americas" are not doing too well because they don't have free slave labor to rely on. Without the unifying power of free money the Americas fracture into smaller states. The states never becomes the United States of America. Instead the continent becomes like Europe, several separate countries on one land mass, each in conflict with one another for dominance in the region. Wars rage between them.
Some of those American countries still need and want slaves. Maybe all of them. So what do they do? They go looking for other sources of slaves. Who do they find? Their old targets... the Native American Indian. They stop wiping them out and instead keep them as slaves. This is not a better situation for the native.
But they'd been killing them for so long that there aren't quite enough of them. They need more. So what do they do? They go south. To South America. Lots of indigenous people down there. Wars with what would become Mexican territories start even earlier then they did irl. Tons of natives are taken slave.
These warring American countries come into conflict with other countries. No Canada. No Mexico. No Central American nations. Soon enough Europe becomes embroiled as the fledgling nation seeks alliances with the greater powers of Europe. Germany, France, Spain and the United Kingdom in particular are at one another's throats because they all had interests in the Americas. Each one wants their American allied country to become the dominant force. The wars rage on.
In fact World War One starts much earlier that irl and includes many naval conflicts. The Atlantic Ocean is all fucked up. But sooner or later some group of these countries gets the upper hand on the other group and they are "occupied".
The natives in all this mess are effed up. And the new wars that start are all civil wars. Wars where the people rise up against their occupiers. Except it wont be in one country, it will be in all the little countries that are occupied...
Oh, I could go on and on and on. The entire world is just embroiled in unending conflict because everyone wants the resources of the New World, and those in the New World want independence. The Native is all but wiped out. The human misery is all but constant.
And don't forget that amidst all this there other factors as well, such as diseases that wipe out entire populations. Unforeseen events in which countries and continents that have nothing to do with this, such as South America, Africa and Asia, become mixed up in this, further stirring the pot.
All that war and misery, hundreds of years of unending conflict going on til this very day, all because you changed one thing. The history books could look MUCH worse than what we know now.
A very nice tale, but pure conjecture Well of course its pure conjecture. We don't know what would happen until after we've made the change and come back home to see that our present has drastically changed. But by then its too late! Back to the Future Part 2 all over again! That's the point! You're willing to take that risk I suppose?
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Post by them1ghtyhumph on Feb 9, 2019 5:06:07 GMT
A very nice tale, but pure conjecture Well of course its pure conjecture. We don't know what would happen until after we've made the change and come back home to see that our present has drastically changed. But by then its too late! Back to the Future Part 2 all over again! That's the point! You're willing to take that risk I suppose? Why the fuck do posters keep referring to fucking movies. This is reality. And we've seen what has happened in real life. I would ABSOLUTELY be willing to take that risk. Would it be okay if we could go back and stop Germany's genocide of the Jews, or are you going to try and tell me that was a good thing also?
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Feb 9, 2019 5:13:00 GMT
I hate to say this, and I expect I'll get some hate for it, but if I had a time machine and could go back in time I would NOT undo anything in the past. Anything at all. Here's the problem...
How do you know what you'll be changing it to? How do you know you wont make things INFINITELY worse? How do you know you wont create a paradox of some kind and fuck EVERYTHING up?
That's the point of ALL time travel stories. Don't mess with history because there's always price to pay and that price is often worse.
HOWEVER...
If you mean that I'm a god like being and can change time and history with my god like powers... then yes, of course. Because with my god like powers I would be able to control any negative effects and consequences. I would be able to course correct.
But its never that easy. You've raised some great points. What I mean by having god like powers is that you can only undo the African slave trade. You have zero control over what happens next. What's really the case is "changing the past = unknown consequences". Unknown can be either good or bad. In all likelihood, any major change to history will be a mixed bag.
10.7 million were taken as slaves and brought to North America, the Caribbean and South America. But what if altering that past creates a future where 100 million suffer because of a drastically altered timeline? As awful as it seems, the chance that things will be worse is too great for me to take.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Feb 9, 2019 5:20:31 GMT
Well of course its pure conjecture. We don't know what would happen until after we've made the change and come back home to see that our present has drastically changed. But by then its too late! Back to the Future Part 2 all over again! That's the point! You're willing to take that risk I suppose? Why the fuck do posters keep referring to fucking movies. This is reality. And we've seen what has happened in real life. I would ABSOLUTELY be willing to take that risk. Would it be okay if we could go back and stop Germany's genocide of the Jews, or are you going to try and tell me that was a good thing also? I'm NOT saying ANY of that were good things. Where the hell did you read me write that? My concern is about making things even WORSE still. The point is you don't know what will happen when you meddle with history. How much of a dick would you feel like if you made the change and you came back to find out that instead of 10 million dead circumstances had changed so that 100 million died?
p.s. we keep referring to movies because its the only frame of reference we have, since this ISNT reality! Its a hypothetical question.
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Post by them1ghtyhumph on Feb 9, 2019 5:33:26 GMT
Why the fuck do posters keep referring to fucking movies. This is reality. And we've seen what has happened in real life. I would ABSOLUTELY be willing to take that risk. Would it be okay if we could go back and stop Germany's genocide of the Jews, or are you going to try and tell me that was a good thing also? I'm NOT saying ANY of that were good things. Where the hell did you read me write that? My concern is about making things even WORSE still. The point is you don't know what will happen when you meddle with history. How much of a dick would you feel like if you made the change and you came back to find out that instead of 10 million dead circumstances had changed so that 100 million died?
p.s. we keep referring to movies because its the only frame of reference we have, since this ISNT reality! Its a hypothetical question.
And you, like I, know of the atrocities that have happened IN REALITY. Also, you and I have no idea what would happen if these atrocities never happened, except that they would have never happened. You are trying to guess HOW MUCH WORSE it might have been without these atrocities. I am trying to guess if would be better WITHOUT these atrocities having occurred. In my scenario, THESE ATROCITIES NEVER OCCURED. Already, we are on a better course. Movies are just someone's opinions, effected by studio interference. We could spend the rest of our lives coming up with different scenarios. In my scenarios, there is no slavery and no Jewish genocide. But please, give us you worst case scenario on every past evil event so the world would be a better place.
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Post by kls on Feb 9, 2019 8:40:27 GMT
How is it a choice I'd have a right to make without the blessing of everyone who would no longer exist because of it?
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Post by CynicalDreamer2 on Feb 9, 2019 10:38:28 GMT
How is it a choice I'd have a right to make without the blessing of everyone who would no longer exist because of it? Let it go, you’re incapable of answering philosophical questions.
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Post by kls on Feb 9, 2019 10:41:18 GMT
How is it a choice I'd have a right to make without the blessing of everyone who would no longer exist because of it? Let it go, you’re incapable of answering philosophical questions. Call it that if you wish, but there is too much involved and nothing that would give me the right to make that decision.
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Post by CynicalDreamer2 on Feb 9, 2019 10:47:02 GMT
Let it go, you’re incapable of answering philosophical questions. Call it that if you wish, but there is too much involved and nothing that would give me the right to make that decision. Do you even understand the concept of philosophical/hypothetical questions?
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Post by kls on Feb 9, 2019 10:50:45 GMT
Call it that if you wish, but there is too much involved and nothing that would give me the right to make that decision. Do you even understand the concept of philosophical/hypothetical questions? Sure, but I don't feel the need to blurt out an answer or ignore there could be consequences if it was a real scenario. I'm hardly the only one who mentioned something to this effect. Any reason you choose to address me in particular as if I came up with a lone/off beat concern?
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Post by CynicalDreamer2 on Feb 9, 2019 11:06:32 GMT
Do you even understand the concept of philosophical/hypothetical questions? Sure, but I don't feel the need to blurt out an answer or ignore there could be consequences if it was a real scenario. I'm hardly the only one who mentioned something to this effect. You’re super literal so it’s not shade, just a question. Generally when someone has a ‘what if’ you respond literally as if you can’t comprehend anything outside of your reality.
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Post by kls on Feb 9, 2019 11:07:49 GMT
Sure, but I don't feel the need to blurt out an answer or ignore there could be consequences if it was a real scenario. I'm hardly the only one who mentioned something to this effect. You’re super literal so it’s not shade, just a question. Generally when someone has a ‘what if’ you respond literally as if you can’t comprehend anything outside of your reality. How would the question come with no implications/things to consider? The thread starter even began with some and asked us to please read before voting. You single me out as if I'm the only one who brought any concerns up. The whole thread has been discussing it. Seriously (cynicaldreamer 2 or anyone) what did I say that was so unique or that I live in my own reality any more than almost all the other posts in this thread as if I should be called out individually or the topic should turn to me? What did anything I said have to do with being 'literal' or not? I don't even know what you mean by outside my reality. It's outside of all of our realities.
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Post by JHA Durant on Feb 9, 2019 12:52:25 GMT
I hate to say this, and I expect I'll get some hate for it, but if I had a time machine and could go back in time I would NOT undo anything in the past. Anything at all. Here's the problem...
How do you know what you'll be changing it to? How do you know you wont make things INFINITELY worse? How do you know you wont create a paradox of some kind and fuck EVERYTHING up?
That's the point of ALL time travel stories. Don't mess with history because there's always price to pay and that price is often worse.
HOWEVER...
If you mean that I'm a god like being and can change time and history with my god like powers... then yes, of course. Because with my god like powers I would be able to control any negative effects and consequences. I would be able to course correct.
But its never that easy. What I'm saying is... what if you make the change and you think its going to turn out great. At first it may even seem so.
But a hundred years later "the Americas" are not doing too well because they don't have free slave labor to rely on. Without the unifying power of free money the Americas fracture into smaller states. The states never becomes the United States of America. Instead the continent becomes like Europe, several separate countries on one land mass, each in conflict with one another for dominance in the region. Wars rage between them.
Some of those American countries still need and want slaves. Maybe all of them. So what do they do? They go looking for other sources of slaves. Who do they find? Their old targets... the Native American Indian. They stop wiping them out and instead keep them as slaves. This is not a better situation for the native.
But they'd been killing them for so long that there aren't quite enough of them. They need more. So what do they do? They go south. To South America. Lots of indigenous people down there. Wars with what would become Mexican territories start even earlier then they did irl. Tons of natives are taken slave.
These warring American countries come into conflict with other countries. No Canada. No Mexico. No Central American nations. Soon enough Europe becomes embroiled as the fledgling nation seeks alliances with the greater powers of Europe. Germany, France, Spain and the United Kingdom in particular are at one another's throats because they all had interests in the Americas. Each one wants their American allied country to become the dominant force. The wars rage on.
In fact World War One starts much earlier that irl and includes many naval conflicts. The Atlantic Ocean is all fucked up. But sooner or later some group of these countries gets the upper hand on the other group and they are "occupied".
The natives in all this mess are effed up. And the new wars that start are all civil wars. Wars where the people rise up against their occupiers. Except it wont be in one country, it will be in all the little countries that are occupied...
Oh, I could go on and on and on. The entire world is just embroiled in unending conflict because everyone wants the resources of the New World, and those in the New World want independence. The Native is all but wiped out. The human misery is all but constant.
And don't forget that amidst all this there other factors as well, such as diseases that wipe out entire populations. Unforeseen events in which countries and continents that have nothing to do with this, such as South America, Africa and Asia, become mixed up in this, further stirring the pot.
All that war and misery, hundreds of years of unending conflict going on til this very day, all because you changed one thing. The history books could look MUCH worse than what we know now.
I get what you're saying. Morally, yes, I would stop slavery if I could go back in time, because it was (and remains) a terrible thing. But in terms of history, stopping something that major in terms of world history could do all those things you describe... and worse! There's no way of knowing just how history would pan out, who the alternate historical figures would be and what they'd do to humanity itself. Hell, another world power could rise somewhere else and enslave Africans or another race of people anyway. Would the human race even still be around in 2019 as a result, and if so, just how different would it be compared to the original timeline? Sorry to get all Doomsday-ish, but the Butterfly Effect has to be taken into account here, and the Atlantic Slave Trade was no little thing, unlike the butterfly in the story.
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Post by Marv on Feb 9, 2019 15:16:17 GMT
No. Only because I don’t fully understand the potential consequences of that kind of historical change.
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