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Post by hi224 on Feb 13, 2019 8:41:28 GMT
a tough one so im not sure.
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Post by them1ghtyhumph on Feb 14, 2019 3:25:02 GMT
As I said, you take your pop culture too seriously. But anyway, who is to say that we would have great people creating great things if the slave trade didn't happen? Perhaps MLK would still be alive because he didn't have to fight for civil rights and Baldwin would have been at the forefront of a great African literature movement. And perhaps barber shop quartets could have evolved into something really kick-ass (as you colonials like to say). You need to learn the difference between "pop" and art. You devalue the impact of African influence on Western civilization. Barber shop quartets my ass. And no, there would have been no Baldwin or MLK in Africa because it was not the West. And it never developed the cultural mechanism to allow such genius to flourish. Again, the place and time for the full development of the African tradition was in the West. What cost slavery? Maybe while you're at it you can undo slavery in the Roman Empire as well. I absolutely would undo slavery in the Roman Empire. Are you pro-slavery? Because you would be the Tony Curtis in that scenario.
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Post by audiosane on Feb 14, 2019 6:19:54 GMT
You've raised some great points. What I mean by having god like powers is that you can only undo the African slave trade. You have zero control over what happens next. What's really the case is "changing the past = unknown consequences". Unknown can be either good or bad. In all likelihood, any major change to history will be a mixed bag.
10.7 million were taken as slaves and brought to North America, the Caribbean and South America. But what if altering that past creates a future where 100 million suffer because of a drastically altered timeline? As awful as it seems, the chance that things will be worse is too great for me to take.
I can respect that take.
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Post by audiosane on Feb 14, 2019 6:26:09 GMT
I've been thinking about this question, on and off, for the past few years. If you had the power to undo the Atlantic slave trade, would you? On one hand, you would be able to prevent all the horrors of black people dealing with slavery, lynchings, Jim Crow segregation, mass incarceration, racism and racial discrimination by white people, police brutality, etc. On the other hand, anywhere from 90% - 95% of all black people in the entire Western hemisphere (U.S.A., South America, etc.) never leave Africa over those 400+ years. Among other things, this massively alters American history, American life and American culture. Which do you choose? Why assume that Africans would not have immigrated to the Americas over 400 years? That's like assuming that if the Wright brothers had not been successful at Kitty Hawk, we would not have travel by airplane today. Or that if the Manhattan Project had been unsuccessful, no one would have built a nuclear bomb by today. Assuming there would've been any interested, how would they have crossed the Atlantic Ocean back then except through white people from Europe? Am I supposed to believe they would've allowed that? But even if they did, I imagine the total number of black people in the Americas in alternative 2019 to be far less than what we actually have.
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Post by Stammerhead on Feb 14, 2019 11:17:43 GMT
As I said, you take your pop culture too seriously. But anyway, who is to say that we would have great people creating great things if the slave trade didn't happen? Perhaps MLK would still be alive because he didn't have to fight for civil rights and Baldwin would have been at the forefront of a great African literature movement. And perhaps barber shop quartets could have evolved into something really kick-ass (as you colonials like to say). You need to learn the difference between "pop" and art. You devalue the impact of African influence on Western civilization. Barber shop quartets my ass. And no, there would have been no Baldwin or MLK in Africa because it was not the West. And it never developed the cultural mechanism to allow such genius to flourish. Again, the place and time for the full development of the African tradition was in the West. What cost slavery? Maybe while you're at it you can undo slavery in the Roman Empire as well. Of course I know the difference but I could say art is subjective and so is humour. But you seem to be implying that what happened in history were the only course of events that could have brought about great people and great art. Of course this may mean that we never existed (is that really such a big deal in the scheme of things?) but let's all cling on to this reality like frightened children.
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Post by Stammerhead on Feb 14, 2019 11:22:28 GMT
You need to learn the difference between "pop" and art. You devalue the impact of African influence on Western civilization. Barber shop quartets my ass. And no, there would have been no Baldwin or MLK in Africa because it was not the West. And it never developed the cultural mechanism to allow such genius to flourish. Again, the place and time for the full development of the African tradition was in the West. What cost slavery? Maybe while you're at it you can undo slavery in the Roman Empire as well. I absolutely would undo slavery in the Roman Empire. Are you pro-slavery? Because you would be the Tony Curtis in that scenario. Or he might be one of those random, nameless slaves nailed up to a cross on the way back to Rome.
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Post by them1ghtyhumph on Feb 15, 2019 5:02:28 GMT
10.7 million were taken as slaves and brought to North America, the Caribbean and South America. But what if altering that past creates a future where 100 million suffer because of a drastically altered timeline? As awful as it seems, the chance that things will be worse is too great for me to take.
I can respect that take. Many of those slaves were sold by African tribes. And might the timeline be better. Not sure you are actually looking at the world we live in
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Post by Stammerhead on Feb 15, 2019 9:34:16 GMT
Of course I know the difference but I could say art is subjective and so is humour. But you seem to be implying that what happened in history were the only course of events that could have brought about great people and great art. Of course this may mean that we never existed (is that really such a big deal in the scheme of things?) but let's all cling on to this reality like frightened children. Of course, eliminating slavery or Genghis Khan or Adolf Hitler would have changed history to such a degree that neither of us would have been born. Maybe if our parents were watching a documentary about The Holocaust they would have declined sex that night and neither of us would ever have been conceived. Too many variables, who knows? But obviously my point about slavery has nothing to do with my existence as an individual. I'm saying that in the bigger scheme of things, slavery and the migration of Africans to the Americas was a positive for the world when all is said and done, not a negative. Address my point. Western civilization is obviously the most successful and progressive system on earth for the development of human potential. I'm merely saying Sure good things come out of bad things. Many of our best inventions result from war but they also result from peaceful times. And listen here you snivelling little turd. I did not defend Drew and your bringing it up on your site just because you are losing a debate about A Ghost Story and saying this is the reason is beyond pathetic. If you want to say slavery is good because we got some great music from it (read your initial reply) then try to accept some lighthearted digs without turning into a self-righteous prick.
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Chickaboom
Freshman
@chickaboom
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Post by Chickaboom on Feb 15, 2019 18:44:22 GMT
*Wonders how many black people are commenting in this thread.*
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Chickaboom
Freshman
@chickaboom
Posts: 73
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Post by Chickaboom on Feb 15, 2019 18:47:08 GMT
Of course, eliminating slavery or Genghis Khan or Adolf Hitler would have changed history to such a degree that neither of us would have been born. Maybe if our parents were watching a documentary about The Holocaust they would have declined sex that night and neither of us would ever have been conceived. Too many variables, who knows? But obviously my point about slavery has nothing to do with my existence as an individual. I'm saying that in the bigger scheme of things, slavery and the migration of Africans to the Americas was a positive for the world when all is said and done, not a negative. Address my point. Western civilization is obviously the most successful and progressive system on earth for the development of human potential. I'm merely saying Sure good things come out of bad things. Many of our best inventions result from war but they also result from peaceful times. And listen here you snivelling little turd. I did not defend Drew and your bringing it up on your site just because you are losing a debate about A Ghost Story and saying this is the reason is beyond pathetic. If you want to say slavery is good because we got some great music from it (read your initial reply) then try to accept some lighthearted digs without turning into a self-righteous prick. There's so much I want to say here, but I'm trying to weigh the pros and cons of entering into such a controversial topic of discussion.
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Post by Stammerhead on Feb 15, 2019 19:09:53 GMT
Sure good things come out of bad things. Many of our best inventions result from war but they also result from peaceful times. And listen here you snivelling little turd. I did not defend Drew and your bringing it up on your site just because you are losing a debate about A Ghost Story and saying this is the reason is beyond pathetic. If you want to say slavery is good because we got some great music from it (read your initial reply) then try to accept some lighthearted digs without turning into a self-righteous prick. There's so much I want to say here, but I'm trying to weigh the pros and cons of entering into such a controversial topic of discussion. Well I misquoted him, he didn't say it was good so I'll take that back.
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Post by Ass_E9 on Feb 15, 2019 19:37:11 GMT
Yes, it was immoral.
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Post by them1ghtyhumph on Feb 16, 2019 4:58:31 GMT
Morality doesn't necessarily produce profits.
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