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Post by geode on Feb 9, 2019 12:59:20 GMT
What do the Catholics here think about this manifesto? It doesn't name Pope Francis but is perceived to be a criticism of him. I am not Catholic, but in reading this summary I think I side with the Pope in terms of most of the issues listed here. VATICAN CITY (AP) -- The Vatican's former doctrine chief has penned a "manifesto of faith" to remind Catholics of basic tenets of belief amid what he says is "growing confusion" in the church today. Cardinal Gerhard Mueller didn't name Pope Francis in his four-page manifesto, released late Friday. But the document was nevertheless a clear manifestation of conservative criticism of Francis' emphasis on mercy and accompaniment versus a focus on repeating Catholic morals and doctrine during the previous two papacies. Mueller wrote that a pastor's failure to teach Catholic truths was the greatest deception - "It is the fraud of the anti-Christ." Catholic Manifesto |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Feb 9, 2019 13:14:26 GMT
I'm interested too. If you rule out the militant atheists (and their socks), the Catholics are the largest group here.
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Post by goz on Feb 9, 2019 21:46:52 GMT
What do the Catholics here think about this manifesto? It doesn't name Pope Francis but is perceived to be a criticism of him. I am not Catholic, but in reading this summary I think I side with the Pope in terms of most of the issues listed here. VATICAN CITY (AP) -- The Vatican's former doctrine chief has penned a "manifesto of faith" to remind Catholics of basic tenets of belief amid what he says is "growing confusion" in the church today. Cardinal Gerhard Mueller didn't name Pope Francis in his four-page manifesto, released late Friday. But the document was nevertheless a clear manifestation of conservative criticism of Francis' emphasis on mercy and accompaniment versus a focus on repeating Catholic morals and doctrine during the previous two papacies. Mueller wrote that a pastor's failure to teach Catholic truths was the greatest deception - "It is the fraud of the anti-Christ." Catholic ManifestoI notice no Catholics have answered this thread. In view of our recent conversations I am wondering what kls thinks about |
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Post by kls on Feb 10, 2019 0:28:34 GMT
What do the Catholics here think about this manifesto? It doesn't name Pope Francis but is perceived to be a criticism of him. I am not Catholic, but in reading this summary I think I side with the Pope in terms of most of the issues listed here. VATICAN CITY (AP) -- The Vatican's former doctrine chief has penned a "manifesto of faith" to remind Catholics of basic tenets of belief amid what he says is "growing confusion" in the church today. Cardinal Gerhard Mueller didn't name Pope Francis in his four-page manifesto, released late Friday. But the document was nevertheless a clear manifestation of conservative criticism of Francis' emphasis on mercy and accompaniment versus a focus on repeating Catholic morals and doctrine during the previous two papacies. Mueller wrote that a pastor's failure to teach Catholic truths was the greatest deception - "It is the fraud of the anti-Christ." Catholic ManifestoI notice no Catholics have answered this thread. In view of our recent conversations I am wondering what kls thinks about If one must be free from sin to receive communion nobody would be able to receive it. Female priests-I'm fine with that, probably even necessary. . Celibacy-Not sure of the point of that. Probably a bad thing actually. |
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Post by geode on Feb 10, 2019 9:03:08 GMT
I notice no Catholics have answered this thread. In view of our recent conversations I am wondering what kls thinks about If one must be free from sin to receive communion nobody would be able to receive it. Female priests-I'm fine with that, probably even necessary. . Celibacy-Not sure of the point of that. Probably a bad thing actually. It seems as if Cardinal Mueller might be saying that those who have divorced and remarried are in a state of sin where they cannot receive communion? "....Mueller repeats basic Catholic teaching that Catholics must be free from sin before receiving Communion. He mentions divorced and remarried faithful, in a clear reference to Francis' opening to letting these Catholics receive Communion on a case-by-case basis after a process of accompaniment and discernment with their pastors." |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 10:55:02 GMT
I'm with Francis 👍
He is moving the Catholic Church in the right direction.
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Post by Zos on Feb 10, 2019 14:29:39 GMT
Whilst the Church remains the major preoccupation of the Church then everything else is so much hot air.
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Post by phludowin on Feb 10, 2019 17:30:06 GMT
If one must be free from sin to receive communion nobody would be able to receive it. Female priests-I'm fine with that, probably even necessary. . Celibacy-Not sure of the point of that. Probably a bad thing actually. It seems as if Cardinal Mueller might be saying that those who have divorced and remarried are in a state of sin where they cannot receive communion? "....Mueller repeats basic Catholic teaching that Catholics must be free from sin before receiving Communion. He mentions divorced and remarried faithful, in a clear reference to Francis' opening to letting these Catholics receive Communion on a case-by-case basis after a process of accompaniment and discernment with their pastors." I read the manifesto, in German. About divorced people: Only if they have received the "Bußsakrament" (Wikipedia believes it's the sacrament of Confession) they may receive the communion. Other things he says: He is strictly Trinitarian and calls other views "heretic". And he says that the Catholic Church is not a club created by people, but by God; yet he places emphasis on the 7 sacrements, which were only established long after the Bible was written. He argues that the reason women can not be ordained is that Jesus made a choice which prohibits it; and that Jesus was a man. That is a pretty weak argument. We might as well say that only fishermen named Simon who rename themselves Peter should be allowed to become priest; because that was the choice Jesus made. So his pamphlet is made of bad logic, faulty assumptions, non sequiturs. And yet he claims that his religion is the only true one. This makes his brand of Catholicism false. |
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Post by goz on Feb 10, 2019 20:42:53 GMT
It seems as if Cardinal Mueller might be saying that those who have divorced and remarried are in a state of sin where they cannot receive communion? "....Mueller repeats basic Catholic teaching that Catholics must be free from sin before receiving Communion. He mentions divorced and remarried faithful, in a clear reference to Francis' opening to letting these Catholics receive Communion on a case-by-case basis after a process of accompaniment and discernment with their pastors." I read the manifesto, in German. About divorced people: Only if they have received the "Bußsakrament" (Wikipedia believes it's the sacrament of Confession) they may receive the communion. Other things he says: He is strictly Trinitarian and calls other views "heretic". And he says that the Catholic Church is not a club created by people, but by God; yet he places emphasis on the 7 sacrements, which were only established long after the Bible was written. He argues that the reason women can not be ordained is that Jesus made a choice which prohibits it; and that Jesus was a man. That is a pretty weak argument. We might as well say that only fishermen named Simon who rename themselves Peter should be allowed to become priest; because that was the choice Jesus made. So his pamphlet is made of bad logic, faulty assumptions, non sequiturs. And yet he claims that his religion is the only true one. This makes his brand of Catholicism false. Interesting. Apart from the content, you are also making a point about translation and interpretation of church documents/encyclicals/manifestos/dogma. That seems a recurring theme both in the Catholic Church in particular and Christianity in general. |
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Post by rizdek on Feb 10, 2019 20:45:42 GMT
I'm interested too. If you rule out the militant atheists (and their socks), the Catholics are the largest group here. I thought militant atheists didn't wear socks. |
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Post by kls on Feb 10, 2019 20:47:19 GMT
My mother had to talk to three different priests before she found one who would let my divorced Aunt and her fiancé at the time be my godparents. Her ex actually went to confession with the priest that agreed to let them be my godparents. He said he told him he abandoned my Aunt and their children and admitted that the breakup of the marriage was all his fault. He liked her second husband because he wanted to adopt their kids and it would get him off the hook for child support.
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Post by goz on Feb 10, 2019 21:37:57 GMT
I'm interested too. If you rule out the militant atheists (and their socks), the Catholics are the largest group here. I thought militant atheists didn't wear socks. Well, we saw what the 'opposition' were wearing  So we decided to wear jack boots and stomp on their toes! Socks optional...atheists are very egalitarian.  |
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Post by geode on Feb 11, 2019 9:46:05 GMT
It seems as if Cardinal Mueller might be saying that those who have divorced and remarried are in a state of sin where they cannot receive communion? "....Mueller repeats basic Catholic teaching that Catholics must be free from sin before receiving Communion. He mentions divorced and remarried faithful, in a clear reference to Francis' opening to letting these Catholics receive Communion on a case-by-case basis after a process of accompaniment and discernment with their pastors." I read the manifesto, in German. About divorced people: Only if they have received the "Bußsakrament" (Wikipedia believes it's the sacrament of Confession) they may receive the communion. Other things he says: He is strictly Trinitarian and calls other views "heretic". And he says that the Catholic Church is not a club created by people, but by God; yet he places emphasis on the 7 sacrements, which were only established long after the Bible was written. He argues that the reason women can not be ordained is that Jesus made a choice which prohibits it; and that Jesus was a man. That is a pretty weak argument. We might as well say that only fishermen named Simon who rename themselves Peter should be allowed to become priest; because that was the choice Jesus made. So his pamphlet is made of bad logic, faulty assumptions, non sequiturs. And yet he claims that his religion is the only true one. This makes his brand of Catholicism false. I also have to wonder if he wrote this because he has a grudge against Pope Francis for relieving him of an important position where he defined Catholic doctrine. I saw a show in the UK several decades ago. A Jewish scholar was remarking about Christianity and said that if a faith did not grow and change, it would stagnate and die. The approach in this manifesto is very rigid and apparently in favor of stifling change. I like the approach of Pope Francis much better. But he has ruffled the feathers of a lot of conservative Catholics. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 9:54:35 GMT
I read the manifesto, in German. About divorced people: Only if they have received the "Bußsakrament" (Wikipedia believes it's the sacrament of Confession) they may receive the communion. Other things he says: He is strictly Trinitarian and calls other views "heretic". And he says that the Catholic Church is not a club created by people, but by God; yet he places emphasis on the 7 sacrements, which were only established long after the Bible was written. He argues that the reason women can not be ordained is that Jesus made a choice which prohibits it; and that Jesus was a man. That is a pretty weak argument. We might as well say that only fishermen named Simon who rename themselves Peter should be allowed to become priest; because that was the choice Jesus made. So his pamphlet is made of bad logic, faulty assumptions, non sequiturs. And yet he claims that his religion is the only true one. This makes his brand of Catholicism false. I also have to wonder if he wrote this because he has a grudge against Pope Francis for relieving him of an important position where he defined Catholic doctrine. I saw a show in the UK several decades ago. A Jewish scholar was remarking about Christianity and said that if a faith did not grow and change, it would stagnate and die. The approach in this manifesto is very rigid and apparently in favor of stifling change. I like the approach of Pope Francis much better. But he has ruffled the feathers of a lot of conservative Catholics. Francis is a reformer, and a breath of fresh air... The Catholic Church has been growing, changing, and adapting for 2,000 years. Modern day 'conservative' Catholics don't know their history, and are in a minority. |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Feb 11, 2019 9:58:22 GMT
I also have to wonder if he wrote this because he has a grudge against Pope Francis for relieving him of an important position where he defined Catholic doctrine. I saw a show in the UK several decades ago. A Jewish scholar was remarking about Christianity and said that if a faith did not grow and change, it would stagnate and die. The approach in this manifesto is very rigid and apparently in favor of stifling change. I like the approach of Pope Francis much better. But he has ruffled the feathers of a lot of conservative Catholics. Francis is a reformer, and a breath of fresh air... The Catholic Church has been growing, changing, and adapting for 2,000 years. Modern day 'conservative' Catholics don't know their history, and are in a minority. He's a Globalist stooge. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 10:04:40 GMT
Francis is a reformer, and a breath of fresh air... The Catholic Church has been growing, changing, and adapting for 2,000 years. Modern day 'conservative' Catholics don't know their history, and are in a minority. He's a Globalist stooge. I'll don my tin foil hat, while you go find an illuminati video on YouTube proclaiming that's fact 🤨 He is just a modern reformist Pope, dragging the church in to the 21st Century, which needs to happen. |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Feb 11, 2019 10:11:24 GMT
I'll don my tin foil hat, while you go find an illuminati video on YouTube proclaiming that's fact 🤨 He is just a modern reformist Pope, dragging the church in to the 21st Century, which needs to happen. Right. And there must be aliens out there....and we'll make contact with them someday.....and Francis will convert them to Catholicism. What a load. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 10:17:53 GMT
I'll don my tin foil hat, while you go find an illuminati video on YouTube proclaiming that's fact 🤨 He is just a modern reformist Pope, dragging the church in to the 21st Century, which needs to happen. Right. And there must be aliens out there....and we'll make contact with them someday.....and Francis will convert them to Catholicism. What a load. Don't be silly... the ants will have taken over long before the aliens arrive. |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Feb 11, 2019 10:25:46 GMT
Right. And there must be aliens out there....and we'll make contact with them someday.....and Francis will convert them to Catholicism. What a load. Don't be silly... the ants will have taken over long before the aliens arrive. We might do better under the ants. Joan Collins was resistant at first, but she came around.   |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 10:32:41 GMT
Don't be silly... the ants will have taken over long before the aliens arrive. We might do better under the ants. Joan Collins was resistant at first, but she came around. I watched Empire of The Ants as part of the Horror Board October Challenge last year... It's very poor, but not as bad as the similar The Killer Shrews. |
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