|
|
Post by CrepedCrusader on Feb 10, 2019 18:18:15 GMT
One of the things TLJ haters seem to be the angriest about is the "disrespect" to the Jedi shown when Luke says that the history of the Jedi is one of failure. But how is he wrong?
The entire Jedi Order was bested by one man (i.e. Palpatine), who then utterly decimated them, leaving only a handful of survivors who had to hide to survive. Even before their destruction they'd lost their way. They committed genocide (though I'm not sure if that's Canon or Legends), they involved themselves in politics and intrigue, etc. Then later, after the rise of the New Republic, Luke tries to rebuild the Order, only for his own nephew to turn against him and slaughter his students. So, how is Luke supposed to see the history of the Jedi as one of anything other than failure?
Of course, at the end of TLJ he appears to come around to thinking there is hope that Rey can succeed where he failed, but why is anyone surprised that he is so negative up until then?
|
|
|
|
Post by Waxer-n-boil on Feb 10, 2019 20:10:33 GMT
One of the things TLJ haters seem to be the angriest about is the "disrespect" to the Jedi shown when Luke says that the history of the Jedi is one of failure. But how is he wrong? The entire Jedi Order was bested by one man (i.e. Palpatine), who then utterly decimated them, leaving only a handful of survivors who had to hide to survive. Even before their destruction they'd lost their way. They committed genocide (though I'm not sure if that's Canon or Legends), they involved themselves in politics and intrigue, etc. Then later, after the rise of the New Republic, Luke tries to rebuild the Order, only for his own nephew to turn against him and slaughter his students. So, how is Luke supposed to see the history of the Jedi as one of anything other than failure? Of course, at the end of TLJ he appears to come around to thinking there is hope that Rey can succeed where he failed, but why is anyone surprised that he is so negative up until then? Why? Because Luke's character throughout the OT was dominated by certain traits: self-doubt, impatience, confidence in his established pedigree in something, optimism for goodness in general and the goodness in people. And that's given the fact that he only had 2 broken down Jedi in hiding to be his mentor; shouldering all of the responsibility of the Jedis future; and the traumatic revelation that his father was a Sith Lord and his most hated enemy. Absolute pessimism was never part of his character. Granted you make some good points about why Luke would at least view the Jedi as a failure. But ultimately that encompasses a small but pivotal period in their history. For a thousand years prior to that, the Jedi were successful. And that is canon. |
|
|
|
Post by jammer81386 on Feb 12, 2019 19:30:48 GMT
One of the things TLJ haters seem to be the angriest about is the "disrespect" to the Jedi shown when Luke says that the history of the Jedi is one of failure. But how is he wrong? The entire Jedi Order was bested by one man (i.e. Palpatine), who then utterly decimated them, leaving only a handful of survivors who had to hide to survive. Even before their destruction they'd lost their way. They committed genocide (though I'm not sure if that's Canon or Legends), they involved themselves in politics and intrigue, etc. Then later, after the rise of the New Republic, Luke tries to rebuild the Order, only for his own nephew to turn against him and slaughter his students. So, how is Luke supposed to see the history of the Jedi as one of anything other than failure? Of course, at the end of TLJ he appears to come around to thinking there is hope that Rey can succeed where he failed, but why is anyone surprised that he is so negative up until then? A quick for the record. That was one of the aspects of The Last Jedi I liked the most. Largely because it did challenge the status quo and questioned the nobility of the Jedi. Not long ago I rewatched Revenge of the Sith, and I noticed that many of the Jedi Council's actions were quite shady. So, for me at least, the idea fit perfectly into the saga. That said, I wish they spent a little more time on the issue to flesh it out more thoroughly. For example, would you consider the Roman Empire a failure because it eventually collapsed. Like the Roman Empire, the Jedi Order also stood for a thousand years before falling. That doesn't mean that they didn't have a profound and lasting effect on the world/galaxy. This is where I think the movie lost some people on the issue. Luke seems to think that Jedi Order itself was dysfunctional, not that the Order had lost its way and reforms were needed. It was the Jedi's failure to do so that led to their downfall, not that the Order itself was immoral. Which is what Luke seems to believe. I think if the movie spent more time on this "argument" fans would have been, at the very least, less harsh on that aspect of the film. To reiterate, I actually really enjoyed that part of the film, so maybe I am not the best person to answer that question. Still, there is my two cents on the matter. |
|
|
|
Post by azzajones on Feb 18, 2019 6:01:53 GMT
As someone who liked Luke having a reality check about the Jedi, Mr Johnson could've actually done something with it, such as Luke instructing Rey not to follow the path of the Jedi and instead forge her own path, or perhaps have Luke abandoning the code of the Jedi and doing things the code previously forbade - alas all we got was cranky old Luke who gave Rey some vague lessons on the force.
What more, Luke appeared to be fine with the first order taking over galaxy and letting everyone live under another cruel dictatorship, after he fought so hard to free the galaxy from the previous dictatorship.
|
|
kingslayer
Sophomore
@kingslayer
Posts: 263
Likes: 120
|
Post by kingslayer on Mar 2, 2019 22:17:17 GMT
Have always found it rather pathetic that the Jedi are nearly destroyed several times throughout their long history and often to a handful of Sith/dark jedi. Some organizations may just be too stupid to survive.
|
|
