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Post by stargazer1682 on Feb 14, 2019 5:50:14 GMT
So I just a reaction video between After Show Reactions and Passion of the Nerd, rewatching Fool For Love (https://youtu.be/tAyOTFuFDbs). Ian (PotN) makes an interesting observation after the episode, when they're just talking about different things that happened on Buffy - he notes that in Earshot, when Willow interrogates Jonathan, she says, "Fantasy's are fun, aren't they Jonathan?....We all have fantasies that we're powerful, more respected. Where people pay attention to us......But sometimes the fantasy isn't enough, is it Jonathan? Sometimes we have to make it so people don't ignore us. Make them pay attention. You know what I'm talking about, don't you?"
He goes on to talk about his own theory that this played into Jonathan's attempted suicide later in the episode; and that he hadn't actually been planning to do that before he spoke to Willow - probably contemplated it, but didn't have the actual plan and the interrogation was the tipping point. His premise was that Willow unwittingly tapped into some magic that compelled him to go through with it, thus explaining why it seemed like he hadn't thought it out too much, especially bringing such a large riffle if he was planning to shoot himself.
I hadn't really picked up on the parallel of what she said and his later actions before; and whether intentionally written that way or not, I think it's reasonable to think there's something to that scene and the affect it had on Jonathan and the events how they played out.
However, I don't think it was magic. Willow was still starting out and didn't quite have that much power yet, but more importantly, I think it kind of undermines where Jonathan was coming from and his state of mind when he was in the tower to suggest that he was just under a spell and not operating of his own will, however desperate. I think it's sufficient that what Willow said was all that's necessary to act as that catalyst. Words have tremendous power in their own right, without "magic;" and without realizing it, Willow was undoubtedly echoing the same thoughts that Jonathan was saying to himself in his head. She was effectively affirming his worst fears and self-doubt and unintentionally encouraging to kill himself; all because she didn't realize the double meaning her words held in that moment. I think that's powerful, because we don't need magic to have influence over people without realizing it.
And that's not to blame Willow and to say she put the idea in his head; it was already there, and at a critical time she had the unfortunate timing of saying just the wrong thing that gave him the extra push, but if she hadn't, there's a good possibility it might have inevitably been something else.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Feb 14, 2019 14:59:57 GMT
I gotta disagree since Johnathan's rationale wasn't about making people pay attention to him. If that were true, he'd've chosen a more publicly exposed location to shoot himself. Johnathan just wanted the pain to stop. It wasn't about being powerful or getting attention. Johnathan didn't need a push. No doubt four years of being picked on in high school had given him plenty of motivation.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Feb 14, 2019 15:40:07 GMT
Except he submitted, what turned out to be his suicide letter to the school paper; and chose to kill himself in what was ostensibly the highest point in the school, where everyone would no doubt hear the shot ring out and no doubt have to look up to where he was; and people would talk about what happened, talk about him - or at least, that would presumably be his mindset in going forward with such an act. And he may have even been correct, to a degree, that the school would be buzzing about someone shooting themselves at the school - for a couple of days, before forgetting it happened; and what they say may not have been nearly as kind as he invariably expected in his state of mind.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Feb 14, 2019 16:01:18 GMT
But the letter wasn't signed. It's doubtful most of the student body would even know his name after he killed himself. A shot ringing out from a tower in an open area would echo all around. No one would know where it came from. Talking about him after the fact isn't the same as paying attention. Paying attention is in the now. He wasn't trying to make a statement with his suicide. Just end his pain. He says as much.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Feb 14, 2019 17:44:43 GMT
But the letter wasn't signed. It's doubtful most of the student body would even know his name after he killed himself. A shot ringing out from a tower in an open area would echo all around. No one would know where it came from. Talking about him after the fact isn't the same as paying attention. Paying attention is in the now. He wasn't trying to make a statement with his suicide. Just end his pain. He says as much. That's not the mindset of someone on the verge of suicide who feels marginalized and overlooked. If they're not going to pay attention to him while he's living, then at least they'll remember him in death - that's what they're thinking, but the important thing is to remember that such reasoning isn't rational; there's nothing about it that is, which is entirely the point. If it were, everyone would do it. I don't remember the exact dialog and don't feel like looking it up, but I don't think the letter was unsigned; they knew immediately upon reading it that Jonathan had submitted it, because they went to look for him and Willow commented about how he had slipped through her own interrogation.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Feb 14, 2019 17:50:44 GMT
Damn, you're right. Scratch all that.
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macpro75
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@macpro75
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Post by macpro75 on Apr 17, 2020 16:41:15 GMT
So I just a reaction video between After Show Reactions and Passion of the Nerd, rewatching Fool For Love (https://youtu.be/tAyOTFuFDbs). Ian (PotN) makes an interesting observation after the episode, when they're just talking about different things that happened on Buffy - he notes that in Earshot, when Willow interrogates Jonathan, she says, "Fantasy's are fun, aren't they Jonathan?....We all have fantasies that we're powerful, more respected. Where people pay attention to us......But sometimes the fantasy isn't enough, is it Jonathan? Sometimes we have to make it so people don't ignore us. Make them pay attention. You know what I'm talking about, don't you?" He goes on to talk about his own theory that this played into Jonathan's attempted suicide later in the episode; and that he hadn't actually been planning to do that before he spoke to Willow - probably contemplated it, but didn't have the actual plan and the interrogation was the tipping point. His premise was that Willow unwittingly tapped into some magic that compelled him to go through with it, thus explaining why it seemed like he hadn't thought it out too much, especially bringing such a large riffle if he was planning to shoot himself. I hadn't really picked up on the parallel of what she said and his later actions before; and whether intentionally written that way or not, I think it's reasonable to think there's something to that scene and the affect it had on Jonathan and the events how they played out. However, I don't think it was magic. Willow was still starting out and didn't quite have that much power yet, but more importantly, I think it kind of undermines where Jonathan was coming from and his state of mind when he was in the tower to suggest that he was just under a spell and not operating of his own will, however desperate. I think it's sufficient that what Willow said was all that's necessary to act as that catalyst. Words have tremendous power in their own right, without "magic;" and without realizing it, Willow was undoubtedly echoing the same thoughts that Jonathan was saying to himself in his head. She was effectively affirming his worst fears and self-doubt and unintentionally encouraging to kill himself; all because she didn't realize the double meaning her words held in that moment. I think that's powerful, because we don't need magic to have influence over people without realizing it. And that's not to blame Willow and to say she put the idea in his head; it was already there, and at a critical time she had the unfortunate timing of saying just the wrong thing that gave him the extra push, but if she hadn't, there's a good possibility it might have inevitably been something else. My quick, knee-jerk reaction is that Willow did not influence Jonathan, however, I want to watch the PotN youtube video you mention and revisit this when and IF I ever get some sleep. [The long-weekend takes it out of you! I gotta rest up for the short-weekend!!!] CC: PreachCaleb
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Post by stargazer1682 on Apr 17, 2020 19:46:52 GMT
So I just a reaction video between After Show Reactions and Passion of the Nerd, rewatching Fool For Love (https://youtu.be/tAyOTFuFDbs). Ian (PotN) makes an interesting observation after the episode, when they're just talking about different things that happened on Buffy - he notes that in Earshot, when Willow interrogates Jonathan, she says, "Fantasy's are fun, aren't they Jonathan?....We all have fantasies that we're powerful, more respected. Where people pay attention to us......But sometimes the fantasy isn't enough, is it Jonathan? Sometimes we have to make it so people don't ignore us. Make them pay attention. You know what I'm talking about, don't you?" He goes on to talk about his own theory that this played into Jonathan's attempted suicide later in the episode; and that he hadn't actually been planning to do that before he spoke to Willow - probably contemplated it, but didn't have the actual plan and the interrogation was the tipping point. His premise was that Willow unwittingly tapped into some magic that compelled him to go through with it, thus explaining why it seemed like he hadn't thought it out too much, especially bringing such a large riffle if he was planning to shoot himself. I hadn't really picked up on the parallel of what she said and his later actions before; and whether intentionally written that way or not, I think it's reasonable to think there's something to that scene and the affect it had on Jonathan and the events how they played out. However, I don't think it was magic. Willow was still starting out and didn't quite have that much power yet, but more importantly, I think it kind of undermines where Jonathan was coming from and his state of mind when he was in the tower to suggest that he was just under a spell and not operating of his own will, however desperate. I think it's sufficient that what Willow said was all that's necessary to act as that catalyst. Words have tremendous power in their own right, without "magic;" and without realizing it, Willow was undoubtedly echoing the same thoughts that Jonathan was saying to himself in his head. She was effectively affirming his worst fears and self-doubt and unintentionally encouraging to kill himself; all because she didn't realize the double meaning her words held in that moment. I think that's powerful, because we don't need magic to have influence over people without realizing it. And that's not to blame Willow and to say she put the idea in his head; it was already there, and at a critical time she had the unfortunate timing of saying just the wrong thing that gave him the extra push, but if she hadn't, there's a good possibility it might have inevitably been something else. My quick, knee-jerk reaction is that Willow did not influence Jonathan, however, I want to watch the PotN youtube video you mention and revisit this when and IF I ever get some sleep. [The long-weekend takes it out of you! I gotta rest up for the short-weekend!!!] CC: PreachCaleb It's obviously been a while since I saw that particular reaction, but I do highly recommend the After Show Reactions channel; particular her Buffy/Angel reactions - www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3iO1RKxrqbaNnEDlSmaSFq2mBbphTU2NIt was entertaining to watch, even though for youtube it's not the full episodes, anticipating how she would react to certain moments made it feel like you were watching and experiencing the show for the first time again.
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