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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2019 13:35:13 GMT
If you think about it, writing would have been quite an innovative concept: Bulg: What are you doing, Thog? Thog: I'm carving symbols into this rock. Bulg: Why? Thog: To represent various objects and concepts. Bulg: Oh. So what does this symbol mean? Thog: An aurochs Bulg: Doesn't look much like an aurochs to me. Thog: It's not meant to be, it's a symbol for convenience's sake, so I can scratch out a long message Bulg: Oh. A message saying what? Thog: That yesterday, Thakk slew an aurochs Bulg: Why can't you just speak that? Thog: Because I want future generations to know that Thakk slew an aurochs Bulg: But how will future generations know what your symbols mean? Thog: Well if this takes off, there will be many bits of stone with symbols on and future generations can compare and contrast these with one another in painstaking detail to get a rough idea of what I'm trying to say Bulg: And you think future generations will care that Thakk killed an aurochs? Thog: Oh yes Bulg: Thog… you're weird Well that may have been useful. But also how they lived, what they ate, how they prepared food, where they lived and traveled, etc. We learn those things through the science of archaeology. It's kind of like a book, you just have to learn the language of 'things'.
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Post by movieliker on Mar 12, 2019 14:10:04 GMT
Well that may have been useful. But also how they lived, what they ate, how they prepared food, where they lived and traveled, etc. Especially how Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon men got along. If they fully described what they were doing and why, modern man would not have as many questions. And their present day counterparts would have advanced more quickly by way of shared information. Quite possibly, but these things come along when the situation dictates I guess. It's like saying if the wheel had been invented 2000 years earlier, the Romans might have had cars. No doubt. But that is a different issue. Yes, things happen when they happen for a reason. But that was not my assertion. Humanity would have benefitted then and now from earlier invention and use of writing.
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Post by phludowin on Mar 12, 2019 14:36:01 GMT
Quite possibly, but these things come along when the situation dictates I guess. It's like saying if the wheel had been invented 2000 years earlier, the Romans might have had cars. No doubt. But that is a different issue. Yes, things happen when they happen for a reason. But that was not my assertion. Humanity would have benefitted then and now from earlier invention and use of writing. Yes they would have. And we would have benefitted if James Watt had not invented a steam engine, but an engine that works on renewable energy. The 19th century cities would have had better air. Humans invent stuff. Everything that is deemed useful at the time survives. Writing wasn't useful for cavemen, so it was only invented when a civilization became big enough, like in Mesopotamia. And the smart people of the time would probably have laughed if they had known that people a thousand years from then would believe that just because writing wasn't invented before, it might mean that humans didn't exist before.
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Post by general313 on Mar 12, 2019 15:01:24 GMT
I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying writings from pre 4000 BC wouldn't be helpful to us today, I mean for the people at the time they didn't see any practical need to write things down until they had to deal with things like tax etc Okay, I will agree with that. In other words, people were relatively stupid back then. We've got plenty of counter-examples including participants in this thread.
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Post by Aj_June on Mar 12, 2019 15:08:04 GMT
Okay, I will agree with that. In other words, people were relatively stupid back then. We've got plenty of counter-examples including participants in this thread. Well...some of the conversation in the past few weeks have seriously stunned me. I have decided to write 2 or 3 posts in any thread as I personally can't extend silly conversations for 20 pages. Among other things, I have found out that there are people who do not understand the concept of separation between Church and State (even when explained 25 times) and there are people who believe having mutual respect for others is not a good idea. So now I have decided to ignore seriously amusing replies (which are intended to be serious by those who write) and may even concede that I am wrong even if I don't feel so. But seriously 20 page threads are exhausting.
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Post by general313 on Mar 12, 2019 15:12:04 GMT
Just how ignorant can you be? There are many cases of civilizations and other tribes without writing witnessed in recent centuries, for example almost all of the American Indian groups (with a couple of exceptions: the Aztecs and Maya). Even the Inca, an advanced civilization in many respects didn't have writing. You’re missing the point. Are any of those American Indian civilisations older than 4000 BC? No, you're missing the point. Your thread is all about your incredulity about humans existing before 4000 BC because of lack of writing, and therefore implying that humans always have access to writing. I pointed out the existence of well-known groups of humans without writing to highlight the ridiculousness of your stance. If we can find illiterate groups post 4000 BC, then there's nothing incredible about illiteracy pre 4000 BC.
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Post by movieliker on Mar 12, 2019 15:13:19 GMT
No doubt. But that is a different issue. Yes, things happen when they happen for a reason. But that was not my assertion. Humanity would have benefitted then and now from earlier invention and use of writing. Yes they would have. And we would have benefitted if James Watt had not invented a steam engine, but an engine that works on renewable energy. The 19th century cities would have had better air. Humans invent stuff. Everything that is deemed useful at the time survives. Writing wasn't useful for cavemen, so it was only invented when a civilization became big enough, like in Mesopotamia. And the smart people of the time would probably have laughed if they had known that people a thousand years from then would believe that just because writing wasn't invented before, it might mean that humans didn't exist before. I disagree. Writing would have been useful for cavemen and all men that existed before 6 thousand years ago. All living things --- especially animate living things --- would benefit from communication and sharing information.
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Post by movieliker on Mar 12, 2019 15:15:58 GMT
Well that may have been useful. But also how they lived, what they ate, how they prepared food, where they lived and traveled, etc. We learn those things through the science of archaeology. It's kind of like a book, you just have to learn the language of 'things'. We would know more about humans that existed before 6 thousand years ago if they had recorded history and writing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2019 15:16:06 GMT
Yes they would have. And we would have benefitted if James Watt had not invented a steam engine, but an engine that works on renewable energy. The 19th century cities would have had better air. Humans invent stuff. Everything that is deemed useful at the time survives. Writing wasn't useful for cavemen, so it was only invented when a civilization became big enough, like in Mesopotamia. And the smart people of the time would probably have laughed if they had known that people a thousand years from then would believe that just because writing wasn't invented before, it might mean that humans didn't exist before. I disagree. Writing would have been useful for cavemen and all men that existed before 6 thousand years ago. All living things --- especially animate living things --- would benefit from communication and sharing information. Oh I give up... Pre-neolithic peoples did communicate, very effectively. What on Earth are 'cavemen'?
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Post by movieliker on Mar 12, 2019 15:17:50 GMT
Okay, I will agree with that. In other words, people were relatively stupid back then. We've got plenty of counter-examples including participants in this thread. I agree. Some are stupid. Some are stubborn. And some are both.
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Post by movieliker on Mar 12, 2019 15:18:50 GMT
I disagree. Writing would have been useful for cavemen and all men that existed before 6 thousand years ago. All living things --- especially animate living things --- would benefit from communication and sharing information. Oh I give up... Pre-neolithic peoples did communicate, very effectively. What on Earth are 'cavemen'? Not as effectively as modern man. Cavemen are men who live in caves.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2019 15:22:45 GMT
Oh I give up... Pre-neolithic peoples did communicate, very effectively. What on Earth are 'cavemen'? Not as effectively as modern man. Cavemen are men who live in caves. Perfectly effectively for their needs. Better than modern man. There is no such culture in the whole of human evolution called cavemen... That's a rubbish word, with no meaning whatsoever outside 1960s and 70s pulp films starring Doug McClure.
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Post by general313 on Mar 12, 2019 15:22:45 GMT
We've got plenty of counter-examples including participants in this thread. Well...some of the conversation in the past few weeks have seriously stunned me. I have decided to write 2 or 3 posts in any thread as I personally can't extend silly conversations for 20 pages. Among other things, I have found out that there are people who do not understand the concept of separation between Church and State (even when explained 25 times) and there are people who believe having mutual respect for others is not a good idea. So now I have decided to ignore seriously amusing replies (which are intended to be serious by those who write) and may even concede that I am wrong even if I don't feel so. But seriously 20 page threads are exhausting. I hope you're not trying to read through those endless Vegas, Toast, etc. ping pong matches. That would be exhausting!
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Post by Aj_June on Mar 12, 2019 15:29:04 GMT
Well...some of the conversation in the past few weeks have seriously stunned me. I have decided to write 2 or 3 posts in any thread as I personally can't extend silly conversations for 20 pages. Among other things, I have found out that there are people who do not understand the concept of separation between Church and State (even when explained 25 times) and there are people who believe having mutual respect for others is not a good idea. So now I have decided to ignore seriously amusing replies (which are intended to be serious by those who write) and may even concede that I am wrong even if I don't feel so. But seriously 20 page threads are exhausting. I hope you're not trying to read through those endless Vegas, Toast, etc. ping pong matches. That would be exhausting! I would nuke that thread if I were a mod. But nah I don't read that thread or any similar ones...I have cut down my time here. It gets tiring. Especially if the conversations turn unpleasant. 90% of the time I spend on this site is on sports board. No fights. Just light sports talk.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2019 15:31:15 GMT
I hope you're not trying to read through those endless Vegas, Toast, etc. ping pong matches. That would be exhausting! I would nuke that thread if I were a mod. But nah I don't read that thread or any similar ones...I have cut down my time here. It gets tiring. Especially if the conversations turn unpleasant. 90% of the time I spend on this site is on sports board. No fights. Just light sports talk. Aberdeen are gonna knock Sevco out of the cup this evening... I'm looking forward to that 👍
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Post by general313 on Mar 12, 2019 15:33:35 GMT
We learn those things through the science of archaeology. It's kind of like a book, you just have to learn the language of 'things'. We would know more about humans that existed before 6 thousand years ago if they had recorded history and writing. We'd know more about Maya culture too if Europeans hadn't burned every Mayan book they could get their hands on. Or classical culture if religious zealot conquerors hadn't trashed and neglected the Library at Alexandria. We have to work with what we actually have, not what we wish we had.
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Post by movieliker on Mar 12, 2019 15:33:46 GMT
Not as effectively as modern man. Cavemen are men who live in caves. Perfectly effectively for their needs. Better than modern man. There is no such culture in the whole of human evolution called cavemen... That's a rubbish word, with no meaning whatsoever outside 1960s and 70s pulp films starring Doug McClure. You are wrong. Modern man would blow cavemen out the water with their superior communication skills. Which includes writing. This is not a semantics discussion. If you don't know what the term "caveman" means . . .
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2019 15:36:31 GMT
Perfectly effectively for their needs. Better than modern man. There is no such culture in the whole of human evolution called cavemen... That's a rubbish word, with no meaning whatsoever outside 1960s and 70s pulp films starring Doug McClure. You are wrong. Modern man would blow cavemen out the water with their superior communication skills. Which includes writing. This is not a semantics discussion. If you don't know what the term "caveman" means . . . Lord give me strength... I'm an archaeologist, and I'm telling you, caveman means absolutely nothing.
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Post by general313 on Mar 12, 2019 15:36:37 GMT
Not as effectively as modern man. Cavemen are men who live in caves. Perfectly effectively for their needs. Better than modern man. There is no such culture in the whole of human evolution called cavemen... That's a rubbish word, with no meaning whatsoever outside 1960s and 70s pulp films starring Doug McClure. What!? Are you saying that The Flintstones is not historically accurate?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2019 15:39:23 GMT
Perfectly effectively for their needs. Better than modern man. There is no such culture in the whole of human evolution called cavemen... That's a rubbish word, with no meaning whatsoever outside 1960s and 70s pulp films starring Doug McClure. What!? Are you saying that The Flintstones is not historically accurate? I'm beginning to think some people on here get all their information on prehistory from watching the flipping Flintstones.
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