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Post by goz on Mar 18, 2019 23:45:39 GMT
No, again. In the real example not the chicken marsala, you said that heart transplants had not taken place ( ie no-one knew how to do them or had had one) You said that they were fake as there was no evidence you had seen to prove that they had happened, real or video, according to your evidence requirements. You just totally contradicted yourself if you NOW say that just as people can make chicken marsala around the world with the correct training and or /experience, then doctors can and do and have done heart transplants,whilst you claim that they haven't. URL or it didn't happen. WHAT?
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Post by goz on Mar 18, 2019 23:49:05 GMT
Suppose for the purposes of discussion you have no idea how to make chicken marsala and that someone asks you about how to make it. You can't use the internet that day because there is a technical problem with it. What do you say or do? You say you can't help with that. It doesn't mean you believe there is no such thing as chicken marsala. It just means you can't be of any help with it if there is such a thing. Now suppose for the purposes of discussion that there is no such thing as whipping cream. Now someone asks you to make chicken marsala. What can you say or do? You tell them it isn't possible because there is no whipping cream. This is really very easy. Your attitude is totally what I called it, childish denial, and dependence on your "authorities." I do get the point you are attempting to convey Arlon. We, as the witnesser, can only observe and process what we experience within our 'own' lives. If we see something, say on t.v, or on the internet, we are then being kept informed. It might not be an aspect of our immediate lives, or of direct consequence to us, but we are still being present to any phenomena. If we are being present, all that exists is the moment. Nothing else matters, or exists, except what is present. Thought is what brings something into context.
We still need to be open and even accepting of what we experience though, be it directly or indirectly. How we process that information is key.
If someone I meet on the street tells me they just got back from Paris, I would not dismiss that and accept that as their truth. My mind knows of a place called Paris in a country called France. It is the moment that is perceived as real at that is what exists, not Paris itself. Paris is not a reality for me in the present. I may not have heard of Paris and could then wonder what it is like. In that same case scenario, Paris is still not the reality of existence for my 'own' experience, be it known or unknown, because for me, it is not real. Even if I had visited at some stage myself, Paris is still not the reality.
So are you confirming the false extrapolation that Planet Arlon makes that because neither he nor you have ever seen a heart transplant, that they didn't happen because it is not in your current observable reality experience?
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Post by goz on Mar 19, 2019 0:40:07 GMT
So are you confirming the false extrapolation that Planet Arlon makes that because neither he nor you have ever seen a heart transplant, that they didn't happen because it is not in your current observable reality experience? No goz! You are missing the essence of what I have commented on to Arlon. Process of the information learned is key and why would I deny that? It only comes into fruition, if it becomes a thought process. That is how your mind works and is. But what is that thought itself?
I neither believe or disbelieve in heart transplants. It is just a term for me, "heart transplant". If someone I meet tells me they had a heart transplant, I would not dismiss that as their truth. However, it is not my existence of reality for the process of the heart transplant itself. Even if I had experienced one, or had one myself, what is real, is what is happening in that present moment. The heart transplant itself is irrelevant because where exactly is it? Inside me is a heart, not the action of the transplant itself. It is no longer there. If I don't think about my heart organ, which I don't often, that is not relevant then to the moment of existence. If I suddenly had pains around my heart, that is then suddenly the reality of that present for me.
If I see on t.v a program about someone having a heart transplant, I would most likely go...Oh, how unfortunate for that person to have had to experience that! I may even entertain the notion of....How amazing, look at what they can do now. It is still an abstract and intangible thought process though, because it is not something that is real for me in that moment, only what I am processing as what is seen as a medical achievement or breakthrough. For whom is it real?
No, I didn't miss or misinterpret it, as I agree. However I was just confirming the point with Planet Arlon and yourself since you went OT seemingly encouraging his stupidity! He actually thinks that heart transplants don't happen, because he has never seen it live or on a documentary that he trusts, did NOT help the delusion of his situation. You seemed to be not far behind him in your 'now thought is the only relevant thought' concept, which I find severely limiting and always have. We have discussed this before and disagreed.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 19, 2019 0:51:34 GMT
No condemn is the correct word. This is a lesson in the paradox of the tolerance of intolerance.As long as someone holds a view that is intolerant to the degree of White Supremacy, they must be condemned and rejected from society until they can fit in again, we ARE hateful of these people, we DO want them rejected from our society, keeping them in society while they continue to hold these views is abhorrent. If anything Jacinda's words are not harsh enough. If we are intolerant, we are then not addressing the core issues deeper within ourselves, or as a collective whole as a human race. All that we witness in our lives, is only a reflection of our own collective mindset. Even as observers from the sidelines, we are still a part and aspect of everything that happens. We are part of this world too.
We can't turn a blind eye from behavior that is so extreme, that the inhumanity and suffering that gets perpetrated, is swept under the rug for the sake of blame and denial. These ideals are stemming from somewhere and as society\community, we need to address what has corrupted or malfunctioned. We don't!
We have no choice but to accept and acknowledge. If we condemn, we are only condemning ourselves and leaving ourselves open to more degrees of extreme suffering. Look at what the condemnation of this perpetrator left in his wake, due to extreme ideology. Religions in themselves condemn, and look at the hate and intolerance it attracts. No one condemned the guy, he was radicalised by far right websites, in fact if the world had openly condemned the putrid shit on those websites, maybe this would not have happened. Would you accept and acknowledge the Third Reich? Of course you wouldn't unless you were abhorrent scum, you would condemn them and fight them. That is what we have to do to the people who encourage, or even do not actively oppose those who spout this divisive right wing rhetoric stop them, condemn them, give them a chance to learn but ultimately if they will not learn tolerance, reject them. Sometimes they must be rejected in the stringest way possible. PUNCH NAZIS. DONT STOP PUNCH THEM TILL THEY FALL OVER THEN KICK THEM TILL THEY STOP BREATHING.
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Post by goz on Mar 19, 2019 1:12:55 GMT
If we are intolerant, we are then not addressing the core issues deeper within ourselves, or as a collective whole as a human race. All that we witness in our lives, is only a reflection of our own collective mindset. Even as observers from the sidelines, we are still a part and aspect of everything that happens. We are part of this world too.
We can't turn a blind eye from behavior that is so extreme, that the inhumanity and suffering that gets perpetrated, is swept under the rug for the sake of blame and denial. These ideals are stemming from somewhere and as society\community, we need to address what has corrupted or malfunctioned. We don't!
We have no choice but to accept and acknowledge. If we condemn, we are only condemning ourselves and leaving ourselves open to more degrees of extreme suffering. Look at what the condemnation of this perpetrator left in his wake, due to extreme ideology. Religions in themselves condemn, and look at the hate and intolerance it attracts. No one condemned the guy, he was radicalised by far right websites, in fact if the world had openly condemned the putrid shit on those websites, maybe this would not have happened. Would you accept and acknowledge the Third Reich? Of course you wouldn't unless you were abhorrent scum, you would condemn them and fight them. That is what we have to do to the people who encourage, or even do not actively oppose those who spout this divisive right wing rhetoric stop them, condemn them, give them a chance to learn but ultimately if they will not learn tolerance, reject them. Sometimes they must be rejected in the stringest way possible. PUNCH NAZIS. DONT STOP PUNCH THEM TILL THEY FALL OVER THEN KICK THEM TILL THEY STOP BREATHING. This post from you surprises me. I would not have thought that even under such dire circumstances, would you condone further violence. It does not become you. Much as I condemn extremists from both the right and the left or, in fact any other type of extremist behaviours, I think the intelligent thing to do is to use technology to disarm them psychologically and ideologically, laws to disarm them physically with increased gun laws upon which I have always though New Zealand was slack leading to this animal finding a 'soft target' in Christchurch, and when caught put them in jail and throw away the key. Fighting violence with violence is always counter productive.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 19, 2019 1:27:30 GMT
No one condemned the guy, he was radicalised by far right websites, in fact if the world had openly condemned the putrid shit on those websites, maybe this would not have happened. Would you accept and acknowledge the Third Reich? Of course you wouldn't unless you were abhorrent scum, you would condemn them and fight them. That is what we have to do to the people who encourage, or even do not actively oppose those who spout this divisive right wing rhetoric stop them, condemn them, give them a chance to learn but ultimately if they will not learn tolerance, reject them. Sometimes they must be rejected in the stringest way possible. PUNCH NAZIS. DONT STOP PUNCH THEM TILL THEY FALL OVER THEN KICK THEM TILL THEY STOP BREATHING. Sorry, but you appear to have deflected from the essence of what I wrote. It was about Jacinda's expression of condemnation I brought up, which you felt was the right term and now you have claimed he hasn't been.
If one operate from the mindset of condemnation, it will only perpetuate more of these atrocities. Isn't that what this is all about? It comes down to our own harsh judgements and that is reflective in everything we see around us.
Sorry let me be clear the guy did not kill people because he was condemned, he killed people because he was radicalised by the far right. If the far right had been condemned before this guy got into them we might have saved 51 lives. It is not a harsh judgement to condemn someone that has vocalised destruction of a group in society. Jacinda is right, we need to condemn this thinking and the people that cling to it so people like the Christchurch shooter are not led astray by them I noticed you did not answer my question re nazis.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Mar 19, 2019 1:36:50 GMT
Quote from the 1983 movie, "The Dead Zone", about a man with psychic powers:
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Post by goz on Mar 19, 2019 2:02:15 GMT
This post from you surprises me. I would not have thought that even under such dire circumstances, would you condone further violence. It does not become you. Much as I condemn extremists from both the right and the left or, in fact any other type of extremist behaviours, I think the intelligent thing to do is to use technology to disarm them psychologically and ideologically, laws to disarm them physically with increased gun laws upon which I have always though New Zealand was slack leading to this animal finding a 'soft target' in Christchurch, and when caught put them in jail and throw away the key. Fighting violence with violence is always counter productive.I think NZ has more lenient gun laws than Australia. Port Arthur saw to this. I think I recall jpat99 mentioning something to me not long ago, regarding some research he did. I don't think gun laws can be the cause here though or a deterrent to attitude of ideology. This post from you surprises me. I would not have thought that even under such dire circumstances, would you condone further violence. It does not become you. Much as I condemn extremists from both the right and the left or, in fact any other type of extremist behaviours, I think the intelligent thing to do is to use technology to disarm them psychologically and ideologically, laws to disarm them physically with increased gun laws upon which I have always though New Zealand was slack leading to this animal finding a 'soft target' in Christchurch, and when caught put them in jail and throw away the key. Fighting violence with violence is always counter productive.I think NZ has more lenient gun laws than Australia. Port Arthur saw to this. I think I recall jpat99 mentioning something to me not long ago, regarding some research he did. I don't think gun laws can be the cause here though or a deterrent to attitude of ideology. It is my belief that the perpetrator took his already aberrant ideology from Australia to New Zealand to find a softer target. He knew that he was unlikely to get the weapons that he needed ( ie semi-automatics) in Australia where they are banned/limited butt were not so in New Zealand. He also chose Christchurch as a soft target. I was there 2 weeks before the killings and it was already a damaged and struggling community, too busy rebuilding itself to take much notice or a crazed gunman until too late.
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Post by goz on Mar 19, 2019 2:33:16 GMT
It is my belief that the perpetrator took his already aberrant ideology from Australia to New Zealand to find a softer target.
He knew that he was unlikely to get the weapons that he needed ( ie semi-automatics) in Australia where they are banned/limited butt were not so in New Zealand. He also chose Christchurch as a soft target. I was there 2 weeks before the killings and it was already a damaged and struggling community, too busy rebuilding itself to take much notice or a crazed gunman until too late. I have some friends who just got back from there on the day before the shootings. Christchurch has gone through some tough times and hardships over this past decade and they did not need this. It is very sad. I have relatives that live just north of the city.
Because the perpetrator was Australian, it has also made things a little more complex too. If he was going to do something this extreme, it perhaps would have been less cowardly to do it on Australian soil. Strict and tight gun laws or not, if he was desperate for what he needed, he would have obtained one somehow here. This perhaps would have been more difficult, but still feasible.
I disagree. As a measure of his cowardliness, the soft target of Christchurch was perfect and the fact that he had four semi automatics made New Zealand a more likely choice. Also you don't need a passport, it is less regulated, friendlier and less 'aware' ( I was struggling for a word here and tossed up about using the word vigilant without it being a bad thing being that in New Zealand) Australia has had mass shootings in the past, has had the shooting of the staff member outside the police station in Auburn(?) and the Lindt Café debacle. Suffice to say it would be way easier for the perpetrator to go under cover and do this in New Zealand. It is more likely he would have been noticed in Australia getting the guns etc. He had no criminal record, so was unlikely to have contacts there to get the guns in Australia.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 7:54:06 GMT
We prayed for the victims at Mass on Sunday, not the usual Catholic prayers for the dead, as they were Muslims. Their Mosques will know the appropriate prayers to offer up for them.
We prayed for the safe repose of the souls of the departed, the healing of the injured, and for the bereaved loved ones left behind to find solace and peace.
I will not mention the perpetrator or his diseased motives again, he should be denied the notoriety he craved.
I have spent some time listening to some of the first hand accounts from survivors among the innocent people, mercilessly gunned down by hate whilst engaged in peaceful prayer at a place of worship... Some of what they have to tell is both heartbreaking, and restores some faith in humanity.
The 71 year old man who threw himself in front of other worshippers, giving up his life to save them.
The young school teacher, who could have fled, but stayed, and flung himself 'with no fear in his eyes' at the gunman to attempt to tackle him and end his murderous rampage... He paid the ultimate price.
The father of a two year child who laid his son down, and led on top of him to take the bullets himself... The gunman shot in to the prone defenceless father multiple times... The toddler crawled out from beneath his brave father, sat on top of him crying... Fortunately, ambulance crews and medical staff were able to save his life.
There are many more.
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Post by Cody™ on Mar 19, 2019 8:18:24 GMT
We prayed for the victims at Mass on Sunday, not the usual Catholic prayers for the dead, as they were Muslims. Their Mosques will know the appropriate prayers to offer up for them. We prayed for the safe repose of the souls of the departed, the healing of the injured, and for the bereaved loved ones left behind to find solace and peace. I will not mention the perpetrator or his diseased motives again, he should be denied the notoriety he craved. I have spent some time listening to some of the first hand accounts from survivors among the innocent people, mercilessly gunned down by hate whilst engaged in peaceful prayer at a place of worship... Some of what they have to tell is both heartbreaking, and restores some faith in humanity. The 71 year old man who threw himself in front of other worshippers, giving up his life to save them. The young school teacher, who could have fled, but stayed, and flung himself 'with no fear in his eyes' at the gunman to attempt to tackle him and end his murderous rampage... He paid the ultimate price. The father of a two year child who laid his son down, and led on top of him to take the bullets himself... The gunman shot in to the prone defenceless father multiple times... The toddler crawled out from beneath his brave father, sat on top of him crying... Fortunately, ambulance crews and medical staff were able to save his life. There are many more. I hope your church is also praying for the 120+ Nigerian Christians who have been gunned down or killed with machetes over the past 3 weeks by Islamic jihadists or the 4,305 Christians that were murdered by Muslim extremists because of their faith in 2018 alone?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 8:33:12 GMT
We prayed for the victims at Mass on Sunday, not the usual Catholic prayers for the dead, as they were Muslims. Their Mosques will know the appropriate prayers to offer up for them. We prayed for the safe repose of the souls of the departed, the healing of the injured, and for the bereaved loved ones left behind to find solace and peace. I will not mention the perpetrator or his diseased motives again, he should be denied the notoriety he craved. I have spent some time listening to some of the first hand accounts from survivors among the innocent people, mercilessly gunned down by hate whilst engaged in peaceful prayer at a place of worship... Some of what they have to tell is both heartbreaking, and restores some faith in humanity. The 71 year old man who threw himself in front of other worshippers, giving up his life to save them. The young school teacher, who could have fled, but stayed, and flung himself 'with no fear in his eyes' at the gunman to attempt to tackle him and end his murderous rampage... He paid the ultimate price. The father of a two year child who laid his son down, and led on top of him to take the bullets himself... The gunman shot in to the prone defenceless father multiple times... The toddler crawled out from beneath his brave father, sat on top of him crying... Fortunately, ambulance crews and medical staff were able to save his life. There are many more. I hope your church is also praying for the 120+ Nigerian Christians who have been gunned down or killed with machetes over the past 3 weeks by Islamic jihadists or the 4,305 Christians that were murdered by Muslim extremists because of their faith in 2018 alone? Sorry, I'm not biting. Here's an idea... Go to Mass a few times, if you really want to find out what prayers are communally offered up 👍
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Post by Cody™ on Mar 19, 2019 8:57:43 GMT
I hope your church is also praying for the 120+ Nigerian Christians who have been gunned down or killed with machetes over the past 3 weeks by Islamic jihadists or the 4,305 Christians that were murdered by Muslim extremists because of their faith in 2018 alone? Sorry, I'm not biting. Here's an idea... Go to Mass a few times, if you really want to find out what prayers are communally offered up 👍 Not biting? In other words you’re evading having to explain away your blatant inconsistency and double standards. It’s not completely your fault though. You’re just a victim of the liberal state programming.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 9:08:23 GMT
Sorry, I'm not biting. Here's an idea... Go to Mass a few times, if you really want to find out what prayers are communally offered up 👍 Not biting? In other words you’re evading having to explain away your blatant inconsistency and double standards. It’s not completely your fault though. You’re just a victim of the liberal state programming.
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Post by goz on Mar 19, 2019 19:45:37 GMT
Sorry, I'm not biting. Here's an idea... Go to Mass a few times, if you really want to find out what prayers are communally offered up 👍 Not biting? In other words you’re evading having to explain away your blatant inconsistency and double standards. It’s not completely your fault though. You’re just a victim of the liberal state programming. How can you possibly profess to be a follower of Christ and such a hypocritical bigoted turd at the same time?
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Post by faustus5 on Mar 19, 2019 19:59:29 GMT
Not biting? In other words you’re evading having to explain away your blatant inconsistency and double standards. It’s not completely your fault though. You’re just a victim of the liberal state programming. How can you possibly profess to be a follower of Christ and such a hypocritical bigoted turd at the same time? That's right wing "Christianity" for you.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 19, 2019 20:06:49 GMT
No one condemned the guy, he was radicalised by far right websites, in fact if the world had openly condemned the putrid shit on those websites, maybe this would not have happened. Would you accept and acknowledge the Third Reich? Of course you wouldn't unless you were abhorrent scum, you would condemn them and fight them. That is what we have to do to the people who encourage, or even do not actively oppose those who spout this divisive right wing rhetoric stop them, condemn them, give them a chance to learn but ultimately if they will not learn tolerance, reject them. Sometimes they must be rejected in the stringest way possible. PUNCH NAZIS. DONT STOP PUNCH THEM TILL THEY FALL OVER THEN KICK THEM TILL THEY STOP BREATHING. This post from you surprises me. I would not have thought that even under such dire circumstances, would you condone further violence. It does not become you. Much as I condemn extremists from both the right and the left or, in fact any other type of extremist behaviours, I think the intelligent thing to do is to use technology to disarm them psychologically and ideologically, laws to disarm them physically with increased gun laws upon which I have always though New Zealand was slack leading to this animal finding a 'soft target' in Christchurch, and when caught put them in jail and throw away the key. Fighting violence with violence is always counter productive. Sometimes it is the only way. If we had not used violence against facism in 1939 where would we be. Lets be clear violence is a last resort, but to protect others, I will (and I have) happily go heels to put down a facist.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 20:08:34 GMT
Not biting? In other words you’re evading having to explain away your blatant inconsistency and double standards. It’s not completely your fault though. You’re just a victim of the liberal state programming. How can you possibly profess to be a follower of Christ and such a hypocritical bigoted turd at the same time? Has it professed to be a follower of Christ 🤔 Fucking unbelievable if it has.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 19, 2019 20:12:17 GMT
Sorry let me be clear the guy did not kill people because he was condemned, he killed people because he was radicalised by the far right. If the far right had been condemned before this guy got into them we might have saved 51 lives. It is not a harsh judgement to condemn someone that has vocalised destruction of a group in society. Jacinda is right, we need to condemn this thinking and the people that cling to it so people like the Christchurch shooter are not led astray by them I noticed you did not answer my question re nazis. You are operating from emotion and your own bias. Condemnation is hate and it doesn't matter whatever way you swing it, or what side of the fence your politics are, hate is hate. That is the source of condemnation and my point. It is operating from the same mindset.
As for your Nazi point, it is not relevant to me. It was what it was and to learn from. Did we? You asked the question and then answered it for me.
That entire era was an extraordinarily tumultuous time and born out of condemning attitudes. It all begins with attitude, which manifests into behavior. You are telling me how I should be feeling about something, because of how you feel. Please don't do that, what you feel is yours to own. You need to understand the paradox of tolerance of intolerance. Condemnation IS hate, we must HATE the intolerant, we must excise them from our society, the paradox is that we must be 100% intolerant of intolerance to have a tolerant society. yes that era was an extremely tumultuous time, borne out of condemning attitudes, exactly what is happening now, if no one stands up and is intolerant of intolerance then it will happen again. WE MUST RESIST INTOLERANCE WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE. Just to be clear, yes education and compassion are preferred, but at the point (or slightly before) someone opens up on a minority group because of their racism they must be eradicated from our society with force if required.
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Post by goz on Mar 19, 2019 21:19:28 GMT
You are operating from emotion and your own bias. Condemnation is hate and it doesn't matter whatever way you swing it, or what side of the fence your politics are, hate is hate. That is the source of condemnation and my point. It is operating from the same mindset.
As for your Nazi point, it is not relevant to me. It was what it was and to learn from. Did we? You asked the question and then answered it for me.
That entire era was an extraordinarily tumultuous time and born out of condemning attitudes. It all begins with attitude, which manifests into behavior. You are telling me how I should be feeling about something, because of how you feel. Please don't do that, what you feel is yours to own. You need to understand the paradox of tolerance of intolerance. Condemnation IS hate, we must HATE the intolerant, we must excise them from our society, the paradox is that we must be 100% intolerant of intolerance to have a tolerant society. yes that era was an extremely tumultuous time, borne out of condemning attitudes, exactly what is happening now, if no one stands up and is intolerant of intolerance then it will happen again. WE MUST RESIST INTOLERANCE WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE. Just to be clear, yes education and compassion are preferred, but at the point (or slightly before) someone opens up on a minority group because of their racism they must be eradicated from our society with force if required. Again I am surprised that you are so militant. I can understand the shock however of what has happened in your country. The problem is, however, that the intolerants feel exactly the same way!
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