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Post by charzhino on Mar 25, 2019 20:25:02 GMT
There's really way too much drama in this thread. There would be more if someone bited to your Aquaman > Dark knight hottake. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 20:27:50 GMT
Aquaman is better than "The Dark Knight". Captain Marvel is a second tier MCU movie which means it is a 9/10. I really don't worry about such things. The market will decide. If all the CBMs go to hell I still have plenty of stuff to watch on TV. More stuff then I could ever watch actually. I respect your right to hold those opinions, but you'll have a very hard time finding someone else who thinks that Aquaman is better than TDK or that Captain Marvel is a 9/10 movie.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 20:31:03 GMT
I get what you're saying. Meanwhile, Shazam is getting critical praise and might only open with a $45 million and $500 million worldwide total. So the film that's label as amazing won't even sniff $1 billion. On the other hand, it is cool to see superheroes like Black Panther, Aquaman, and Captain Marvel to have the spotlight rather than the traditional Batman, Superman and Spider-Man. It is cool. And I'm glad it's happening. I just want all these movies to be held to a higher standard. Captain Marvel should have been so much better than what we got. Shazam sounds like it may be something special, but I will be skeptical until I see it for myself.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 20:35:24 GMT
If you're looking for integrity in the CBM game, that's all done. The genre will be driven to implosion and, we'll soon need to begin again. Those who can earn as much as is humanly possible NOW will carry over to fourth-wave CBM filmmaking. 4WCBMs will be a quieter and more intimate affair to be sure. You worry too much fish man. Sometimes we just have to let these things play out. Do you agree with my assessment though? Do you believe Aquaman and Captain Marvel are good enough to justify their respective critical praise? And I do believe integrity still exists. I fully expect End Game to be an all time great... Not just a landmark MCU movie, but a pop culture icon that endures as a classic. (Though perhaps I should lower my expectations to avoid disappointment)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 20:38:28 GMT
There's really way too much drama in this thread. I don't see any drama. I see good discussion. Lots of intelligent, articulate replies. And no hostility or name calling.
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Post by justanaveragejoe on Mar 25, 2019 20:43:06 GMT
There's really way too much drama in this thread. There would be more if someone bited to your Aquaman > Dark knight hottake. Well, Aquaman > The Dark Knight box office wise.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 20:44:26 GMT
There would be more if someone bited to your Aquaman > Dark knight hottake. Well, Aquaman > The Dark Knight box office wise. Which REALLY REALLY REEEEEEEEEEEEHEEEEEHEEEHEEEHEEEEEEEAAAALLLY underscores my original point. Innit?
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Post by blockbusted on Mar 25, 2019 20:55:54 GMT
Astute observation Admiral Ackbar. As these movies make more and more money they increasingly become designed for casual and new fans, many of them international, to hop onto the latest hype train thats dominating the social stratosphere. As a result the plot and characterisation elements of newer movies becomes simplified to accommodate wider audiences; studios want to make money from the newcomers so will put out safe, formulaic product that appeals to the massess. This a good blog post that summarises it well talkfilmsociety.com/articles/the-need-for-more-from-captain-marvel-and-hollywoodAnd unfortunately its the direction where everything is headed. Look at where DC have gone, from the challenging MoS to the formulaic medoicre Aquaman that made a billion. From the narrative excellence of Winter Soldier to the bland Captain Marvel thats going to make a billion. Both successors smashing their predecessors in box office take, not because they are better films but because they've attracted alot more part time casual fans who want to participate in the latest socio-cultural trend thats easy to digest. Dude, 'Man of Steel'? That film is something that you either love it or hate it with very little middle ground. 'Aquaman', on the other hand, is either a very good film or a best kind of bad film, and I would rather have the latter over the former. But then again, you're the same dumb@$$ who tends to lump 'Wonder Woman' with 'Ghostbuters: Answer the Call', so what am I doing here anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 21:01:02 GMT
Astute observation Admiral Ackbar. As these movies make more and more money they increasingly become designed for casual and new fans, many of them international, to hop onto the latest hype train thats dominating the social stratosphere. As a result the plot and characterisation elements of newer movies becomes simplified to accommodate wider audiences; studios want to make money from the newcomers so will put out safe, formulaic product that appeals to the massess. This a good blog post that summarises it well talkfilmsociety.com/articles/the-need-for-more-from-captain-marvel-and-hollywoodAnd unfortunately its the direction where everything is headed. Look at where DC have gone, from the challenging MoS to the formulaic medoicre Aquaman that made a billion. From the narrative excellence of Winter Soldier to the bland Captain Marvel thats going to make a billion. Both successors smashing their predecessors in box office take, not because they are better films but because they've attracted alot more part time casual fans who want to participate in the latest socio-cultural trend thats easy to digest. Dude, 'Man of Steel'? That film is something that you either love it or hate it with very little middle ground. 'Aquaman', on the other hand, is either a very good film or a best kind of bad film, and I would rather have the latter over the former. But then again, you're the same dumb@$$ who tends to lump 'Wonder Woman' with 'Ghostbuters: Answer the Call', so what am I doing here anyway. We are all having a nice discussion here. You don't need to fuck that up by calling people names.
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Post by blockbusted on Mar 25, 2019 21:04:46 GMT
Dude, 'Man of Steel'? That film is something that you either love it or hate it with very little middle ground. 'Aquaman', on the other hand, is either a very good film or a best kind of bad film, and I would rather have the latter over the former. But then again, you're the same dumb@$$ who tends to lump 'Wonder Woman' with 'Ghostbuters: Answer the Call', so what am I doing here anyway. We are all having a nice discussion here. You don't need to fuck that up by calling people names. The problem is, maintaining a nice discussion is kind of difficult when it comes to him.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 21:05:53 GMT
Astute observation Admiral Ackbar. As these movies make more and more money they increasingly become designed for casual and new fans, many of them international, to hop onto the latest hype train thats dominating the social stratosphere. As a result the plot and characterisation elements of newer movies becomes simplified to accommodate wider audiences; studios want to make money from the newcomers so will put out safe, formulaic product that appeals to the massess. This a good blog post that summarises it well talkfilmsociety.com/articles/the-need-for-more-from-captain-marvel-and-hollywoodAnd unfortunately its the direction where everything is headed. Look at where DC have gone, from the challenging MoS to the formulaic medoicre Aquaman that made a billion. From the narrative excellence of Winter Soldier to the bland Captain Marvel thats going to make a billion. Both successors smashing their predecessors in box office take, not because they are better films but because they've attracted alot more part time casual fans who want to participate in the latest socio-cultural trend thats easy to digest. Although I am not a fan of MoS, I think you make a good point here. On the one hand, I do think DC went too dark for MoS, BvS and JL... But the lesson they seemed to have learned is that "Serious character development is bad. Jokey joke-filled romps are good!" ... And I think that'll ultimately turn the DC franchise into a weightless series of popcorn flicks.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 21:07:06 GMT
We are all having a nice discussion here. You don't need to fuck that up by calling people names. The problem is, maintaining a nice discussion is kind of difficult when it comes to him. You resorted to name calling though. Not him. I hate MoS too. But his overall point is both valid and relevant to the discussion at hand.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 25, 2019 21:11:24 GMT
And unfortunately its the direction where everything is headed. Look at where DC have gone, from the challenging MoS to the formulaic medoicre Aquaman that made a billion. From the narrative excellence of Winter Soldier to the bland Captain Marvel thats going to make a billion. Both successors smashing their predecessors in box office take, not because they are better films but because they've attracted alot more part time casual fans who want to participate in the latest socio-cultural trend thats easy to digest. To each his own. I'd rather take Aquaman's "I could have just peed on it" silliness over MoS's "tornadocide" drudgery.
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Post by charzhino on Mar 25, 2019 21:14:03 GMT
Dude, 'Man of Steel'? That film is something that you either love it or hate it with very little middle ground. 'Aquaman', on the other hand, is either a very good film or a best kind of bad film, and I would rather have the latter over the former. Very little middle ground? Man of Steel score was 56% on RT that is the definition of middle ground. Audience score of 75% and average critic rating of 6.25/10. Comparison wise Captain Marvel has a 6.79 and Aquaman 6.05. This idea that MoS is a terribly recieved movie with a love it/hate it tag is a myth. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Mar 25, 2019 21:14:45 GMT
If you're looking for integrity in the CBM game, that's all done. The genre will be driven to implosion and, we'll soon need to begin again. Those who can earn as much as is humanly possible NOW will carry over to fourth-wave CBM filmmaking. 4WCBMs will be a quieter and more intimate affair to be sure. You worry too much fish man. Sometimes we just have to let these things play out. Do you agree with my assessment though? Do you believe Aquaman and Captain Marvel are good enough to justify their respective critical praise? And I do believe integrity still exists. I fully expect End Game to be an all time great... Not just a landmark MCU movie, but a pop culture icon that endures as a classic. (Though perhaps I should lower my expectations to avoid disappointment) What I think of those two films really doesn't matter and isn't necessarily relevant to the discussion. What is at issue are your standards and, I'm afraid to tell you that they are far higher than the average movie goer's. You're a Fishman with discerning taste and, that may prove to be your undoing before this wave of CBMs is over. Yes, a film can be elevated to the level of art but, more frequently than not, we get a consumerist product that is meant to entertain within the moment and to be quickly forgotten after that. After all, they are just movies --- IMO, with few exceptions, film ceased to be a transformative medium some time ago. In the case of Aquaman, I have no affinity for the character and, as such, I could only evaluate the film based on its technical prowess and story mechanics. The special effects and pyrotechnics were competently executed and even thrilling in some spots. The story mechanics seemed flawed in many places but were good enough to get the overall story across (as mundane as it was). I didn't love the film but, I certainly didn't hate it and would not declare it to be the end of the genre or the medium. It was a typical, big-budget Hollywood offering --- no more and no less. I don't begrudge WB for making it. I don't resent its financial or critical success and, I certainly don't dislike the millions of others who got more out of it than I did. Good on them. If WB chooses to make more CBMs of that ilk (like Shazam!), I simply won't be there to partake --- no harm, no foul. Aquaman is a film that did not resonate with me but, I wouldn't make it my mission to denounce the movie based on childish whims, a thinly-veiled sociopolitical agenda or some bizarre sense of entitlement. As for Captain Marvel, let's just say it didn't crack my MCU top ten (but not for any of the reasons or viewpoints that are popularly held). When you say "DANGEROUS," I think a little distance and perspective is warranted. As a fan, perspective may be hard to come by but, I think it's worth striving for. If you see content you don't like and aren't interested in, keep your money in your wallet and, perhaps buy a cookie instead. I guarantee you you'll start feeling better before you've finished it.
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Post by charzhino on Mar 25, 2019 21:24:39 GMT
Although I am not a fan of MoS, I think you make a good point here. On the one hand, I do think DC went too dark for MoS, BvS and JL... But the lesson they seemed to have learned is that "Serious character development is bad. Jokey joke-filled romps are good!" ... And I think that'll ultimately turn the DC franchise into a weightless series of popcorn flicks. I understand MoS isnt for everyone, but it has a unique vision and style to it that Aquaman and Captain Marvel do not possess. These 2 feel like by-the numbers, popcorn flicks and thats exactly how they come off, playing it very straight and safe. MoS comes off as a anti-Hollywood blockbuster with imagery, metaphor, symbolism, a dedicated musical score, unusual cinematography. None of these things are present in Captain Marvel or Aquaman with any weight which is why they feel so studio-bland. And your probably right about DC. If they continue with project's like Aquaman 2, Suicide Squad 2, Shazam etc they will end up as you say |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 21:34:19 GMT
Do you agree with my assessment though? Do you believe Aquaman and Captain Marvel are good enough to justify their respective critical praise? And I do believe integrity still exists. I fully expect End Game to be an all time great... Not just a landmark MCU movie, but a pop culture icon that endures as a classic. (Though perhaps I should lower my expectations to avoid disappointment) What I think of those two films really doesn't matter and isn't necessarily relevant to the discussion. What is at issue are your standards and, I'm afraid to tell you that they are far higher than the average movie goer's. You're a Fishman with discerning taste and, that may prove to be your undoing before this wave of CBMs is over. Yes, a film can be elevated to the level of art but, more frequently than not, we get a consumerist product that is meant to entertain within the moment and to be quickly forgotten after that. After all, they are just movies --- IMO, with few exceptions, film ceased to be a transformative medium some time ago. In the case of Aquaman, I have no affinity for the character and, as such, I could only evaluate the film based on its technical prowess and story mechanics. The special effects and pyrotechnics were competently executed and even thrilling in some spots. The story mechanics seemed flawed in many places but were good enough to get the overall story across (as mundane as it was). I didn't love the film but, I certainly didn't hate it and would not declare it to be the end of the genre or the medium. It was a typical, big-budget Hollywood offering --- no more and no less. I don't begrudge WB for making it. I don't resent its financial or critical success and, I certainly don't dislike the millions of others who got more out of it than I did. Good on them. If WB chooses to make more CBMs of that ilk (like Shazam!), I simply won't be there to partake --- no harm, no foul. Aquaman is a film that did not resonate with me but, I wouldn't make it my mission to denounce the movie based on childish whims, a thinly-veiled sociopolitical agenda or some bizarre sense of entitlement. As for Captain Marvel, let's just say it didn't crack my MCU top ten (but not for any of the reasons or viewpoints that are popularly held). When you say "DANGEROUS," I think a little distance and perspective is warranted. As a fan, perspective may be hard to come by but, I think it's worth striving for. If you see content you don't like and aren't interested in, keep your money in your wallet and, perhaps buy a cookie instead. I guarantee you you'll start feeling better before you've finished it. Your points are well taken. Indeed I do set too high a bar. But... I am perfectly content with movies that merely entertain... IF they at least meet some sort of standard for good story telling. As a huge fan of the CBM genre, I am extremely forgiving... I certainly did not expect Aquaman to be anything close to high art. I would've been completely satisfied with a fun, goofy adventure. In fact, I will be buying the blu ray tomorrow. My issue is that it fails to succeed at achieving even a very basic character arc. It muddles the story up so bad it's as though it were scripted by amateurs. And to be honest, the same is partly true of Captain Marvel. I am not demanding high art, but rather a base level of competency in character development and story telling.
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Post by blockbusted on Mar 25, 2019 21:35:37 GMT
Dude, 'Man of Steel'? That film is something that you either love it or hate it with very little middle ground. 'Aquaman', on the other hand, is either a very good film or a best kind of bad film, and I would rather have the latter over the former. Very little middle ground? Man of Steel score was 56% on RT that is the definition of middle ground. Audience score of 75% and average critic rating of 6.25/10. Comparison wise Captain Marvel has a 6.79 and Aquaman 6.05. This idea that MoS is a terribly recieved movie with a love it/hate it tag is a myth. Well, a lot of people will tell you that if you look at some of those reviews, they're either praising the film or trashing it. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 21:36:01 GMT
Although I am not a fan of MoS, I think you make a good point here. On the one hand, I do think DC went too dark for MoS, BvS and JL... But the lesson they seemed to have learned is that "Serious character development is bad. Jokey joke-filled romps are good!" ... And I think that'll ultimately turn the DC franchise into a weightless series of popcorn flicks. I understand MoS isnt for everyone, but it has a unique vision and style to it that Aquaman and Captain Marvel do not possess. These 2 feel like by-the numbers, popcorn flicks and thats exactly how they come off, playing it very straight and safe. MoS comes off as a anti-Hollywood blockbuster with imagery, metaphor, symbolism, a dedicated musical score, unusual cinematography. None of these things are present in Captain Marvel or Aquaman with any weight which is why they feel so studio-bland. And your probably right about DC. If they continue with project's like Aquaman 2, Suicide Squad 2, Shazam etc they will end up as you say I can agree with that. I think MoS was all wrong for the character, but I do give it credit for being bold in its vision.
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Post by blockbusted on Mar 25, 2019 21:36:52 GMT
The problem is, maintaining a nice discussion is kind of difficult when it comes to him. You resorted to name calling though. Not him. I hate MoS too. But his overall point is both valid and relevant to the discussion at hand. Well, excuse me for having a hard time trusting him when he shows unwarranted contempt to one of DC's best films. |
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