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Post by general313 on Apr 24, 2019 14:59:34 GMT
CoolJGS☺ But it is in the bible... www.scripturecatholic.com/hell/Vegas Trust me, the Catholic church would not get something major like this wrong. hell exists and it's eternal... www.scripturecatholic.com/hell/ ; seems pretty clear cut. for the record... the Catholic church is the true church of Jesus Christ as He started it with Peter and it went down through the generations til today... "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it." - Matthew 16:18 ; and the list of popes since... www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htmbasically the Catholic church was started by Jesus Christ, other Christian denominations are started by man. Christ guides the Catholic church since it's the church He started. it contains the whole truth where as other's only contain some of it and likely contain a fair amount of error etc.
p.s. it amazes me how some people try to deny hell. it's pretty basic Christianity stuff as even people who know very little about Christianity probably know the basic Heaven/Hell concept, good vs evil.
OK. I have a few questions. 1. Let's say I am Mahama Ghandi or the Dalai Lama or some other good egg to mankind dude. I have not accepted Christ because I am a Buddhist/Hindu/Atheist. 2. My body is cremated so there is nothing left to burn in Hell. 3. Will I still go to your version of Hell and what will burn. When things burn they disappear so how am I going to burn eternally when whatever it is , is burnt up?? 4. What will actually be burning, if yes...I am going to your Hell, if I neither have a body nor brain to experience a fire? Your incorruptible soul of course. Even though the flames have no effect on the integrity of the (eternal and incorruptible) soul, God designed it so that pain receptors are activated so that the eternal punishment is effective.
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Post by goz on Apr 24, 2019 21:25:23 GMT
OK. I have a few questions. 1. Let's say I am Mahama Ghandi or the Dalai Lama or some other good egg to mankind dude. I have not accepted Christ because I am a Buddhist/Hindu/Atheist. 2. My body is cremated so there is nothing left to burn in Hell. 3. Will I still go to your version of Hell and what will burn. When things burn they disappear so how am I going to burn eternally when whatever it is , is burnt up?? 4. What will actually be burning, if yes...I am going to your Hell, if I neither have a body nor brain to experience a fire? I'm more interested in seeing if Aj June is going to admonish you for spelling Mahatma Gandhi incorrectly, as he did with me once. Something tells me no. He is probably smart enough to recognise a flat out typo as I have spelled it correctly before...unlike 'some'! Also why does AJ have dibs on The great 'Ghandman'?
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Post by goz on Apr 24, 2019 21:29:28 GMT
OK. I have a few questions. 1. Let's say I am Mahama Ghandi or the Dalai Lama or some other good egg to mankind dude. I have not accepted Christ because I am a Buddhist/Hindu/Atheist. 2. My body is cremated so there is nothing left to burn in Hell. 3. Will I still go to your version of Hell and what will burn. When things burn they disappear so how am I going to burn eternally when whatever it is , is burnt up?? 4. What will actually be burning, if yes...I am going to your Hell, if I neither have a body nor brain to experience a fire? Your incorruptible soul of course. Even though the flames have no effect on the integrity of the (eternal and incorruptible) soul, God designed it so that pain receptors are activated so that the eternal punishment is effective. So God is Mr Niceguy?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 24, 2019 22:07:49 GMT
Evasion noted. Nobody gives a shit about their home that is destroyed in a fire as still existing as energy some where... Their home was destroyed. It's gone. It ain't coming back. It was a false equivalence since things in a supposed hell are not of the physical type. The human body rots away on earth leaving the soul to be damned, or not, in the afterlife. Or something. But I think you really know that. I hope this helps.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 24, 2019 22:19:22 GMT
FilmFlaneur Now you cite another "torment" that is slightly different from the one being used in Revelation... although related to the whole "touchstone" thing: It is only used theses 3 times in the scriptures... 2 of them (the two Luke ones are in the same parable) aren't part of a literal story... The "torment" for 2 of them are directly equated to being symbolic. The overall point is that the major emphasis of Biblical "torment" isn't really the concept of being tortured... It is directly defined as symbolic ( tormenting metal on a touchstone)... and mostly used in a symbolic setting (revelations and parables) That's it. This weird need that you have to demand that it only means torture... so you can jerk yourself off the "How dare the Bible talk about torture!!" is sooooo unnecessary.... and pretty damned obvious. Unfortunately, I still have no issue with Bible talking about torment or torture, since I have no investment in the Christian mythology one way or another - although I have a good idea of the nature of the Old Testament god, the one which after all is alleged never-changing, from reading scripture. Neither do I care whether the notion is symbolic or realistic for the same reasons. An indifference, logical to an atheist, already mentioned, 3 times now. As for the claim that the use of the word in Revelations in not of the most expected and normal type such as I quoted in the other contexts, but of a supposedly special type relating only to the torture of metals, when the scholars of the English Standard Bible demonstrably felt the regular English word seemed entirely appropriate when translating the text and subject of human damnation, well, the special pleading is noted. But either interpretation, yours or the main one, still relate to a type of torture, and more, yes, in a way torture can easily be a torment (at least enough to answer CJGCools claim that 'My reply was to CJG who insisted that 'no one goes to hell in a tormenting way'. So QED lol). Please take things up further with them scholars over at the ESB, or all the other bibles with equivalent translations of this passage come to that, if you are not happy - though they probably won't respond to any rudeness. I am more always likely to believe their translations than the insistence of some guy on a message board. Sorry about that.. But, thanks for playing.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 24, 2019 22:30:43 GMT
FilmFlaneur Now you cite another "torment" that is slightly different from the one being used in Revelation... although related to the whole "touchstone" thing: It is only used theses 3 times in the scriptures... 2 of them (the two Luke ones are in the same parable) aren't part of a literal story... The "torment" for 2 of them are directly equated to being symbolic. The overall point is that the major emphasis of Biblical "torment" isn't really the concept of being tortured... It is directly defined as symbolic (tormenting metal on a touchstone)... and mostly used in a symbolic setting (revelations and parables) That's it. This weird need that you have to demand that it only means torture... so you can jerk yourself off the "How dare the Bible talk about torture!!" is sooooo unnecessary.... and pretty damned obvious. Unfortunately, I still have no issue with Bible talking about torment or torture, since I have no investment in the Christian mythology one way or another. Neither do I care whether the notion is symbolic or realistic for the same reasons. As already mentioned, 3 times now. As for the claim that the use of the word in Revelations in not of the most expected and normal type such as I quoted in other contexts, but of a supposedly special type relating to the torture of metals, when the scholars of the English Standard Bible demonstrably felt the regular English word seemed entirely appropriate when translating the text. well, your special pleading is noted. By either interpretation, it relates to a consideration of torture, and, yes, in a way torment can always be torture (which is enough to answer CJGCools claim that 'My reply was to CJG who insisted that 'no one goes to hell in a tormenting way' I think, so QED lol). Please take things up further with them scholars over at the ESB, or all the other bibles with equivalent translations of this passage if you are not happy - though they probably won't respond to rudeness - since I am more always likely to believe their translation than the insistence of some guy on a message board. Sorry about that.. But, thanks for playing. Seems like you have a problem with the Bible not talking about torment and torture.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 24, 2019 22:43:46 GMT
Unfortunately, I still have no issue with Bible talking about torment or torture, since I have no investment in the Christian mythology one way or another. Neither do I care whether the notion is symbolic or realistic for the same reasons. As already mentioned, 3 times now. As for the claim that the use of the word in Revelations in not of the most expected and normal type such as I quoted in other contexts, but of a supposedly special type relating to the torture of metals, when the scholars of the English Standard Bible demonstrably felt the regular English word seemed entirely appropriate when translating the text. well, your special pleading is noted. By either interpretation, it relates to a consideration of torture, and, yes, in a way torment can always be torture (which is enough to answer CJGCools claim that 'My reply was to CJG who insisted that 'no one goes to hell in a tormenting way' I think, so QED lol). Please take things up further with them scholars over at the ESB, or all the other bibles with equivalent translations of this passage if you are not happy - though they probably won't respond to rudeness - since I am more always likely to believe their translation than the insistence of some guy on a message board. Sorry about that.. But, thanks for playing. Seems like you have a problem with the Bible not talking about torment and torture. Take the time to read my reply above as far as my personal interest lies in such arcane matters. I hope it helps. But, from your sarcasm, perhaps you think hell & etc (for instance) are never presented as torturing and tormenting in scripture, either by implication or in specifics, whether symbolically or literally - depending of the level of your fundamentalism of course? It might make a reconciliation with the notion of a supposed all-loving god more comfortable. The Problem of Hell is something with which honest Christians have had to face, and struggle with down the millennia, even if one ignores the issue of whether such a doom would be permanent for the damned. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_Hell
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Post by goz on Apr 24, 2019 23:16:08 GMT
Seems like you have a problem with the Bible not talking about torment and torture. Take the time to read my reply above as far as my personal interest lies in such arcane matters. I hope it helps. But, from your sarcasm, perhaps you think hell & etc (for instance) are never presented as torturing and tormenting in scripture, either by implication or in specifics, whether symbolically or literally - depending of the level of your fundamentalism of course? It might make a reconciliation with the notion of a supposed all-loving god more comfortable. The Problem of Hell is something with which honest Christians have had to face, and struggle with down the millennia, even if one ignores the issue of whether such a doom would be permanent for the damned. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_Hell I really like how @general313 described Hell above.
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Post by Vegas on Apr 25, 2019 1:59:05 GMT
Evasion noted. Nobody gives a shit about their home that is destroyed in a fire as still existing as energy some where... Their home was destroyed. It's gone. It ain't coming back. It was a false equivalence since things in a supposed hell are not of the physical type. The human body rots away on earth leaving the soul to be damned, or not, in the afterlife. Or something. But I think you really know that. I hope this helps. Since I'm arguing no such thing... It's not really a false equivalency... I'm saying that destruction means destruction.
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Post by Vegas on Apr 25, 2019 2:01:08 GMT
Seems like you have a problem with the Bible not talking about torment and torture. Take the time to read my reply above as far as my personal interest lies in such arcane matters. Maybe you take time to write better replies.... because it seems to me as well as you having a problem with The Bible not talking about torment and torture.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 25, 2019 19:42:56 GMT
Take the time to read my reply above as far as my personal interest lies in such arcane matters. Maybe you take time to write better replies.... because it seems to me as well as you having a problem with The Bible not talking about torment and torture. All I can do is repeat, again again a, quite natural position of atheistic disinterest in the fine details of a purported entity - something most logical and reasonable for anyone who does not believe in such a deity. There is indeed a Problem, as I described only just before, of course: The Problem of Hell, a common one for believers with acute psychological investment in the mythology. Meanwhile, just to clear up suspicions that you and CJG (although so far he has failed to provide same) can't demonstrate matters, perhaps you can quote the scripture which, when talking about what sinners can expect of hell and damnation etc, describes it all in terms free of torment, torture, suffering, pain or similar miseries? - Surely a formality. A place of comfort and joy no doubt. This simple ask is just to demonstrate that there can be no problem doing that lol. Now, to avoid the tedium of repetition on this subject, and before you descend into your usual rudeness, I will leave it at that.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 25, 2019 19:53:19 GMT
It was a false equivalence since things in a supposed hell are not of the physical type. The human body rots away on earth leaving the soul to be damned, or not, in the afterlife. Or something. But I think you really know that. I hope this helps. Since I'm arguing no such thing... It's not really a false equivalency... I'm saying that destruction means destruction. LOL you do know that here you were arguing permanent torment (ie grief over the irreversible effects of a fire and "I'm sure the people who have lost their homes to fire will very much disagree" etc) as being objectionable, right? That poor couple! lol As we remember that God, who admits to causing natural evil (or misfortune) in Isiah would ultimately be to blame? I thought so. As I have patiently explained to CJG already, to suggest that a god cannot create a fire that burns forever without full destruction is to limit it. Especially a deity who, apparently, could burn a bush in the same way on one notable occasion elsewhere in scripture. And its good night from me.
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Post by Vegas on Apr 26, 2019 2:42:55 GMT
Maybe you take time to write better replies.... because it seems to me as well as you having a problem with The Bible not talking about torment and torture. All I can do is repeat, again again a, quite natural position of atheistic disinterest in the fine details of a purported entity - something most logical and reasonable for anyone who does not believe in such a deity. There is indeed a Problem, as I described only just before, of course: The Problem of Hell, a common one for believers with acute psychological investment in the mythology. Meanwhile, just to clear up suspicions that you and CJG (although so far he has failed to provide same) can't demonstrate matters, perhaps you can quote the scripture which, Good.... Because none of what you wrote actually makes any sense... YOU DO NOT HAVE "ATHEISTIC DISINTEREST" IN THE FINE DETAILS... YOU WHINE NON-STOP ABOUT THE "FINE DETAILS" THAT YOU INSIST ARE TO BE INTERPRETED THE WAY THAT YOU NEED TO INTERPRET THEM SO YOU CAN WHINE ABOUT THE INTERPRETATION.
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Post by Vegas on Apr 26, 2019 2:48:49 GMT
perhaps you can quote the scripture which, when talking about what sinners can expect of hell and damnation etc, describes it all in terms free of torment, torture, suffering, pain or similar miseries? Dude... We've had this conversation waaay too many times for you to be this stupid.. It's death. That's it.... "The wages sin pays is death" - Romans whatever the verse is that you are too fucking stupid to remember. Hell... It's been explained to you several times in this thread alone. What part of "lake of fire = destruction" do you just not fucking comprehend? Don't blame me because you're a thick-headed moron.
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Post by Zos on Apr 26, 2019 12:31:46 GMT
Christians... are Jews going to hell? Arrogant little twat that Jesus fella.
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