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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Apr 26, 2019 0:29:29 GMT
INFINITY WAR: basically, if Strange tells Tony they're in the right timeline before everything that needs to happen happens, it won't happen. Strange holding up the one finger is a signal to Tony that everything that needs to happen for them to win has happened, they are in the one timeline. If Strange had told Tony before this, those things wouldn't have happened. He saw 14 million futures. He knows exactly how this needs to play out. As for the time travel in ENDGAME, Hulk and the Ancient One make clear that you can't change the past. By changing things, you're just creating another timeline. Your past is your past, you can't change it. So even if Cap were to change things in his new life with Peggy, it wouldn't affect the main MCU timeline. The Gamora from 2014 running around in 2023 doesn't affect the Gamora we followed in GOTG 1-2 and infinity War. She still lived and died. The new Gamora is one from a different timeline. So if Cap were to change anything, it wouldn't affect the main MCU timeline. Easiest way to explain it is this: Main timeline: The one the MCU follows and is in now and will continue to follow. Timeline 2: Everything the same up until the Battle of New York. Loki escapes with the Tesseract, Captain America and Hulk steal the Mind and Time stones. Cap later returns these stones to the moment they were taken, restoring this timeline almost to normal (Loki is still on the loose with the Tesseract). Timeline 3: Everything the same up until "Thor: The Dark World". Rocket removes the Reality stone from Jane. Cap later returns the stone at the moment it was taken. Timeline 4: Everything same up until the 1970's. Tony steals the Tesseract from SHIELD. Cap later returns the Tesseract. Timeline 5: Everything same up until GOTG. Rhodey and Nebula steal the Power stone while Nat and Clint retrieve the Soul stone. The Thanos, Nebula, Gamora and Thanos's army of this timeline travel to Main Timeline, where Thanos, Nebula and Thanos's army are killed. Cap later returns the stones but this timeline goes forward without Thanos, Nebula and Gamora. Timeline 6: Captain America goes back to the 40's and lives a long and happy life with Peggy. Cap returns to the main timeline to say farewell to Bucky and Sam after Peggy presumably dies. As is made clear in the film, you cannot change the past. The past remains the same no matter what. The time travel rules from other movies don't apply to the MCU. Instead, you create a different timeline. The timeline you originated from still exists. The changes the Avengers make in the past have no effect on the future they came from. ----------------------------------> Radically DIFFERENT approach from the Fox X-Men Main Universe, where the timeline is revised:X-CONTINUITY x-continuity.blogspot.com There are extensive sections explaining more about incongruences and contradictions in the saga.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2019 1:10:03 GMT
Okay, hold up, timeout.
I'm not super in-depth with all of the Marvel movies but when was time travel a thing? I don't recall it ever being one but I have not seen every single film. I had assumed that Dr. Strange used magical prediction powers to guess at every possible future outcome but that is not so much time travel as it is a form of clairvoyance.
Did I miss something?
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Post by Vegas on Apr 26, 2019 3:03:34 GMT
I was going to start a thread: So The MCU's Timeline Is Just As Screwed Up As The X-Men Universe
But.. This beat me to it. Question: IF THANOS FROM THE PAST GOES TO THE FUTURE AND IS KILLED BEFORE HE CREATES THE INFINITY GAUNTLET.... THAN HOW DOES THE *SNAP* EVER HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE?
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Post by Vegas on Apr 26, 2019 3:04:36 GMT
Okay, hold up, timeout. I'm not super in-depth with all of the Marvel movies but when was time travel a thing? I don't recall it ever being one but I have not seen every single film. I had assumed that Dr. Strange used magical prediction powers to guess at every possible future outcome but that is not so much time travel as it is a form of clairvoyance. Did I miss something?No... Tony cracks time travel in this film.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Apr 26, 2019 3:41:27 GMT
I was going to start a thread: So The MCU's Timeline Is Just As Screwed Up As The X-Men Universe
But.. This beat me to it. Question: IF THANOS FROM THE PAST GOES TO THE FUTURE AND IS KILLED BEFORE HE CREATES THE INFINITY GAUNTLET.... THAN HOW DOES THE *SNAP* EVER HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE?
What's even more confusing is if Steve went back in time to put all the stones back in the right timeline, then won't Thanos still get the stones then and do the snap? Or has the loop been closed because 2014 Thanos was killed?
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Apr 26, 2019 17:16:15 GMT
I was going to start a thread: So The MCU's Timeline Is Just As Screwed Up As The X-Men Universe
Question: IF THANOS FROM THE PAST GOES TO THE FUTURE AND IS KILLED BEFORE HE CREATES THE INFINITY GAUNTLET.... THAN HOW DOES THE *SNAP* EVER HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE?
Thanos, that Thanos, is from a different timeline.
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Post by sostie on Apr 26, 2019 18:53:34 GMT
Everyone is in the right place in a single timeline. Banner if I recall argues that everyone there is the as a result of what happens in that current timeline in the past, present and future. He argues against the timeline working as it would happen in say Back To The Future. Or at least that was his theory
As for the Infinity Stones being returned that isn't to secure the Timeline but to prevent or end the creation of new timelines as explained by The Ancient one.
Of course this is all open to change and interpretation because there is no hard and fast rules on time travel, there are varying theories on what repercussions time travel would have, and we are dealing with time travel via quantum realms and not just plain back and forth...and who really has a handle on that?
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Post by Vegas on Apr 26, 2019 18:55:01 GMT
Thanos, that Thanos, is from a different timeline. But.. The whole point of undoing the snap instead of preventing it from happening in the first place... and replacing all of the stones at the same moment that they were stolen... was to prevent any alternate timelines from existing. And how does that work anyways?.... What? Cap injects the reality stone back into Jane Foster with Rocket standing there as he sucks it out of her?
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Apr 26, 2019 19:03:40 GMT
Everyone is in the right place in a single timeline. Banner if I recall argues that everyone there is the as a result of what happens in that current timeline in the past, present and future. He argues against the timeline working as it would happen in say Back To The Future. Or at least that was his theory As for the Infinity Stones being returned that isn't to secure the Timeline but to prevent or end the creation of new timelines as explained by The Ancient one. Of course this is all open to change and interpretation because there is no hard and fast rules on time travel, there are varying theories on what repercussions time travel would have, and we are dealing with time travel via quantum realms and not just plain back and forth...and who really has a handle on that? I just watched the movie and if I recall correctly the Ancient One said that the stones’ absence would screw her reality but the future Avengers’ reality would be fine.
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Post by sostie on Apr 26, 2019 19:14:07 GMT
Everyone is in the right place in a single timeline. Banner if I recall argues that everyone there is the as a result of what happens in that current timeline in the past, present and future. He argues against the timeline working as it would happen in say Back To The Future. Or at least that was his theory As for the Infinity Stones being returned that isn't to secure the Timeline but to prevent or end the creation of new timelines as explained by The Ancient one. Of course this is all open to change and interpretation because there is no hard and fast rules on time travel, there are varying theories on what repercussions time travel would have, and we are dealing with time travel via quantum realms and not just plain back and forth...and who really has a handle on that? I just watched the movie and if I recall correctly the Ancient One said that the stones’ absence would screw her reality but the future Avengers’ reality would be fine. I think she said it would screw up the new reality created by the removal of the stones, but would be fixed by their return (though not sure if she said the latter part), but that was all forgotten when she found out Strange willingly gave away the time stone and accepted that was what had to be done
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Apr 27, 2019 9:50:55 GMT
I just watched the movie and if I recall correctly the Ancient One said that the stones’ absence would screw her reality but the future Avengers’ reality would be fine. I think she said it would screw up the new reality created by the removal of the stones, but would be fixed by their return (though not sure if she said the latter part), but that was all forgotten when she found out Strange willingly gave away the time stone and accepted that was what had to be done Yeah, that's what I think too.
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Post by deviates on Apr 27, 2019 9:58:28 GMT
Timeline 6: Captain America goes back to the 40's and lives a long and happy life with Peggy. Cap returns to the main timeline to say farewell to Bucky and Sam after Peggy presumably dies. How does he just 'return to the main timeline'? It's made to seem he just grew old and remembered to be in the right place at the right time. So how is he able to simply jump between timelines?
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Post by Vassaggo on Apr 27, 2019 10:07:54 GMT
Timeline 6: Captain America goes back to the 40's and lives a long and happy life with Peggy. Cap returns to the main timeline to say farewell to Bucky and Sam after Peggy presumably dies. How does he just 'return to the main timeline'? It's made to seem he just grew old and remembered to be in the right place at the right time. So how is he able to simply jump between timelines? The Quantum Vortices in the Quantum Realm, I think of them as Tunnels/Wormholes that tunnel their way through Space and Time using the Mobius Strip. Who else thought of Harry Keogh the Necroscope when they saw the Mobius Strip. And how Harry could traverse all whens and wheres in the Mobius Continuum using the Strip?
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Post by merh on Apr 27, 2019 10:21:16 GMT
Worthy or not, we were told in Ragnarok Thor channels the lightning through himseld. Mjolnir helps control it. Steve doesnt control lightning.
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Post by merh on Apr 27, 2019 10:23:13 GMT
INFINITY WAR: basically, if Strange tells Tony they're in the right timeline before everything that needs to happen happens, it won't happen. Strange holding up the one finger is a signal to Tony that everything that needs to happen for them to win has happened, they are in the one timeline. If Strange had told Tony before this, those things wouldn't have happened. He saw 14 million futures. He knows exactly how this needs to play out. As for the time travel in ENDGAME, Hulk and the Ancient One make clear that you can't change the past. By changing things, you're just creating another timeline. Your past is your past, you can't change it. So even if Cap were to change things in his new life with Peggy, it wouldn't affect the main MCU timeline. The Gamora from 2014 running around in 2023 doesn't affect the Gamora we followed in GOTG 1-2 and infinity War. She still lived and died. The new Gamora is one from a different timeline. So if Cap were to change anything, it wouldn't affect the main MCU timeline. They wanted to use time travel without screwing with the existing movies so they said the past would remain unchanged. Don't buy it
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Post by deviates on Apr 27, 2019 10:23:30 GMT
How does he just 'return to the main timeline'? It's made to seem he just grew old and remembered to be in the right place at the right time. So how is he able to simply jump between timelines? The Quantum Vortices in the Quantum Realm, I think of them as Tunnels/Wormholes that tunnel their way through Space and Time using the Mobius Strip. Who else thought of Harry Keogh the Necroscope when they saw the Mobius Strip. And how Harry could traverse all whens and wheres in the Mobius Continuum using the Strip? So cap has managed to work out a way to navigate the quantum realm without use of the Pym tech to sit on the bench at that exact moment? Maybe I'm missing something but it doesn't really make sense to me based on the time travel logic the film adopted.
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Post by pk9 on Apr 27, 2019 10:49:48 GMT
Timeline 6: Captain America goes back to the 40's and lives a long and happy life with Peggy. Cap returns to the main timeline to say farewell to Bucky and Sam after Peggy presumably dies. How does he just 'return to the main timeline'? It's made to seem he just grew old and remembered to be in the right place at the right time. So how is he able to simply jump between timelines? There's nothing preventing him from always having been present on the main timeline, just secretly growing old with Peggy, as long as he makes sure not to interfere with the timeline or be recognized.
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Post by deviates on Apr 27, 2019 11:07:11 GMT
How does he just 'return to the main timeline'? It's made to seem he just grew old and remembered to be in the right place at the right time. So how is he able to simply jump between timelines? There's nothing preventing him from always having been present on the main timeline, just secretly growing old with Peggy, as long as he makes sure not to interfere with the timeline or be recognized. Banner stated that altering the past creates divergent timelines that wouldn't impact the present. Cap travelling back to grow old with Peggy is altering the past. By the logic set up at the beginning surely that should mean he grows old in an alternate timeline. Unless I'm missing something, the time travel logic they used does prevent him from just having always been there.
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Post by Vassaggo on Apr 27, 2019 11:15:36 GMT
The Quantum Vortices in the Quantum Realm, I think of them as Tunnels/Wormholes that tunnel their way through Space and Time using the Mobius Strip. Who else thought of Harry Keogh the Necroscope when they saw the Mobius Strip. And how Harry could traverse all whens and wheres in the Mobius Continuum using the Strip? So cap has managed to work out a way to navigate the quantum realm without use of the Pym tech to sit on the bench at that exact moment? Maybe I'm missing something but it doesn't really make sense to me based on the time travel logic the film adopted. Here's how I interpreted it. I don't know if I'm right but here it goes: No he didn't use the Pym Particles to get back to the Funeral. He just remembered what Date it was and showed up. The Quantum Tunneling Machine sent him through the Vortices to get to all the points he had to return too. (replacing the Stones and Returning the Hammer to the exact moment they left the time stream. The machine did all the work he just had to set the space and time coordinates in his Quantum GPS on his wrist). Depending on how you interpret how the machine works you either think a new alternate timeline is created with each jump. From our the audiences pov the alternate timelines shift without us noticing it. Following the jumpers point of view. The other way to look at it is they is only 1 timeline and the past is immutable. Meaning the changes to the timeline and the timeline is static. If you change anything in the past it doesn't effect the present at all because it already happened. So your changes don't ripple forward in time. Either way the way Cap got back to the Funeral was he stayed in 1945 after he was done depositing the stones and hammer to where they belonged at the very second they were taken. After that he went to Peggy sometime after 1945. The super soldier serum makes him age slower. So his biological age when he left was probably around 30-35 years. His chronological age at the funeral would be around 106 years old. He was born on July 4, 1918. The funeral happened 5 years after the Snap. The Snap happened in 2019. So Cap was chronological 106 years old at the funeral. His biological age seems to be about 30-35. The Ice persevering him at that age. Then he went back in time and stayed there. After his errands he went to Peggy some time around 1945. He lived from that point on with Peggy. Living the whole time back to 2024 to get back to the Funeral. So biologically he would be around 114. (35 years old preserved + 79 years difference from 1945 to 2024). Chronologically he would be around 185 years old. (from birth 1918 to 2024 = 106, he jumped back to 1945. He then lived from 1945 back to present day which was 79 years. 106 + 79 = 185 years lived) Either way Cap's serum extended his life so he got old but a little slower than normal.
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Post by Vassaggo on Apr 27, 2019 11:21:51 GMT
Any way you interpret it I have a prediction. This very topic will be discussed, argued and debated from Opening day yesterday until months down the line. It should be a fun exercise in interpretation and debate. Some will get mad others will find it fun and interesting to see other pov's. Anyway you slice it it will be a conversation starter. So have some fun with it
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