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Post by deviates on Apr 27, 2019 11:24:34 GMT
So cap has managed to work out a way to navigate the quantum realm without use of the Pym tech to sit on the bench at that exact moment? Maybe I'm missing something but it doesn't really make sense to me based on the time travel logic the film adopted. Here's how I interpreted it. I don't know if I'm right but here it goes: No he didn't use the Pym Particles to get back to the Funeral. He just remembered what Date it was and showed up. The Quantum Tunneling Machine sent him through the Vortices to get to all the points he had to return too. (replacing the Stones and Returning the Hammer to the exact moment they left the time stream. The machine did all the work he just had to set the space and time coordinates in his Quantum GPS on his wrist). Depending on how you interpret how the machine works you either think a new alternate timeline is created with each jump. From our the audiences pov the alternate timelines shift without us noticing it. Following the jumpers point of view. The other way to look at it is they is only 1 timeline and the past is immutable. Meaning the changes to the timeline and the timeline is static. If you change anything in the past it doesn't effect the present at all because it already happened. So your changes don't ripple forward in time. Either way the way Cap got back to the Funeral was he stayed in 1945 after he was done depositing the stones and hammer to where they belonged at the very second they were taken. After that he went to Peggy sometime after 1945. The super soldier serum makes him age slower. So his biological age when he left was probably around 30-35 years. His chronological age at the funeral would be around 106 years old. He was born on July 4, 1918. The funeral happened 5 years after the Snap. The Snap happened in 2019. So Cap was chronological 106 years old at the funeral. His biological age seems to be about 30-35. The Ice persevering him at that age. Then he went back in time and stayed there. After his errands he went to Peggy some time around 1945. He lived from that point on with Peggy. Living the whole time back to 2024 to get back to the Funeral. So biologically he would be around 114. (35 years old preserved + 79 years difference from 1945 to 2024). Chronologically he would be around 185 years old. (from birth 1918 to 2024 = 106, he jumped back to 1945. He then lived from 1945 back to present day which was 79 years. 106 + 79 = 185 years lived) Either way Cap's serum extended his life so he got old but a little slower than normal. I think I'll need to see it again to work out if this makes sense! I just keep going back to the comment Banner made about the suggested plan of going back and murdering baby Thanos. He said that wouldn't work because that would create an alternate timeline, with nothing changing in the original. Doesn't Cap shacking up with Peggy do exactly the same?
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Post by deviates on Apr 27, 2019 11:25:20 GMT
Any way you interpret it I have a prediction. This very topic will be discussed, argued and debated from Opening day yesterday until months down the line. It should be a fun exercise in interpretation and debate. Some will get mad others will find it fun and interesting to see other pov's. Anyway you slice it it will be a conversation starter. So have some fun with it Absolutely. Though it's given me a headache thinking about it haha.
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Post by Vassaggo on Apr 27, 2019 11:36:46 GMT
Here's how I interpreted it. I don't know if I'm right but here it goes: No he didn't use the Pym Particles to get back to the Funeral. He just remembered what Date it was and showed up. The Quantum Tunneling Machine sent him through the Vortices to get to all the points he had to return too. (replacing the Stones and Returning the Hammer to the exact moment they left the time stream. The machine did all the work he just had to set the space and time coordinates in his Quantum GPS on his wrist). Depending on how you interpret how the machine works you either think a new alternate timeline is created with each jump. From our the audiences pov the alternate timelines shift without us noticing it. Following the jumpers point of view. The other way to look at it is they is only 1 timeline and the past is immutable. Meaning the changes to the timeline and the timeline is static. If you change anything in the past it doesn't effect the present at all because it already happened. So your changes don't ripple forward in time. Either way the way Cap got back to the Funeral was he stayed in 1945 after he was done depositing the stones and hammer to where they belonged at the very second they were taken. After that he went to Peggy sometime after 1945. The super soldier serum makes him age slower. So his biological age when he left was probably around 30-35 years. His chronological age at the funeral would be around 106 years old. He was born on July 4, 1918. The funeral happened 5 years after the Snap. The Snap happened in 2019. So Cap was chronological 106 years old at the funeral. His biological age seems to be about 30-35. The Ice persevering him at that age. Then he went back in time and stayed there. After his errands he went to Peggy some time around 1945. He lived from that point on with Peggy. Living the whole time back to 2024 to get back to the Funeral. So biologically he would be around 114. (35 years old preserved + 79 years difference from 1945 to 2024). Chronologically he would be around 185 years old. (from birth 1918 to 2024 = 106, he jumped back to 1945. He then lived from 1945 back to present day which was 79 years. 106 + 79 = 185 years lived) Either way Cap's serum extended his life so he got old but a little slower than normal. I think I'll need to see it again to work out if this makes sense! I just keep going back to the comment Banner made about the suggested plan of going back and murdering baby Thanos. He said that wouldn't work because that would create an alternate timeline, with nothing changing in the original. Doesn't Cap shacking up with Peggy do exactly the same? Yeah that is the in universe position on how it works. Although Banner did say it wasn't his area of expertise. Even if that rule is correct and that past (your now future) can't effect your past (the present) there are ways to interpret that. One is that when you go back another time stream is created every time. Meaning they branched the timeline what 5 or 6 times? Another way to look at is. It's all one time stream and the present is set no matter what you do in the past. Meaning everything you do doesn't ripple forward to the present. There is a disconnect from the past to the future. Which is counter intuitive. In real life Quantum Mechanics is all kinds of counter intuitive. I dropped out of Physics in High School and College and went to the Life Sciences (Anatomy and Physiology in High School and Advance Biology and Technology in College) because Quantum Physics is nucking futs. It's like Physics on LSD and Shrooms.
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Post by Vassaggo on Apr 27, 2019 11:37:17 GMT
Any way you interpret it I have a prediction. This very topic will be discussed, argued and debated from Opening day yesterday until months down the line. It should be a fun exercise in interpretation and debate. Some will get mad others will find it fun and interesting to see other pov's. Anyway you slice it it will be a conversation starter. So have some fun with it Absolutely. Though it's given me a headache thinking about it haha. If people don't take it too seriously it should be fun.
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pk9
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Post by pk9 on Apr 27, 2019 11:47:50 GMT
There's nothing preventing him from always having been present on the main timeline, just secretly growing old with Peggy, as long as he makes sure not to interfere with the timeline or be recognized. Banner stated that altering the past creates divergent timelines that wouldn't impact the present. Cap travelling back to grow old with Peggy is altering the past. By the logic set up at the beginning surely that should mean he grows old in an alternate timeline. Unless I'm missing something, the time travel logic they used does prevent him from just having always been there. How do you know he altered the past? Peggy Carter basically disappears from the MCU timeline after Agent Carter season 2. We see just a couple of glimpses of her in her later life. It's entirely possible she was able to keep her private life a secret (she's a spy after all) to the world and to the audience.
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Post by deviates on Apr 27, 2019 11:56:08 GMT
Banner stated that altering the past creates divergent timelines that wouldn't impact the present. Cap travelling back to grow old with Peggy is altering the past. By the logic set up at the beginning surely that should mean he grows old in an alternate timeline. Unless I'm missing something, the time travel logic they used does prevent him from just having always been there. How do you know he altered the past? Peggy Carter basically disappears from the MCU timeline after Agent Carter season 2. We see just a couple of glimpses of her in her later life. It's entirely possible she was able to keep her private life a secret (she's a spy after all) to the world and to the audience. He's time travelled so he can shack up with Peggy. That is altering the past, it couldn't happen without time travel. It might not be as significant as some of the alterations, but it's significant enough.
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Post by deviates on Apr 27, 2019 12:05:19 GMT
I think I'll need to see it again to work out if this makes sense! I just keep going back to the comment Banner made about the suggested plan of going back and murdering baby Thanos. He said that wouldn't work because that would create an alternate timeline, with nothing changing in the original. Doesn't Cap shacking up with Peggy do exactly the same? Yeah that is the in universe position on how it works. Although Banner did say it wasn't his area of expertise. Even if that rule is correct and that past (your now future) can't effect your past (the present) there are ways to interpret that. One is that when you go back another time stream is created every time. Meaning they branched the timeline what 5 or 6 times? Another way to look at is. It's all one time stream and the present is set no matter what you do in the past. Meaning everything you do doesn't ripple forward to the present. There is a disconnect from the past to the future. Which is counter intuitive. In real life Quantum Mechanics is all kinds of counter intuitive. I dropped out of Physics in High School and College and went to the Life Sciences (Anatomy and Physiology in High School and Advance Biology and Technology in College) because Quantum Physics is nucking futs. It's like Physics on LSD and Shrooms. So if there's one constant stream and a disconnect between past and future, would that just mean that killing baby Thanos would create a time paradox where it still happens, while Cap's trip back in time to be with Peggy had just always happened?
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Apr 27, 2019 12:17:21 GMT
Transcript of the dialogues between Ancient One and Bruce:
A: Sorry I can’t help you. If I give up the Time Stone to help your reality, I’m dooming my own.
B: With all due respect, I’m not sure the science really supports that.
She shows him a timeline with Infinity Stones circling a single point. The timeline is depicted as glowing, flowing lines like golden yarn wrapped around itself, constantly in flux.
(Supperhero: the branched timeline has been created by the time travel, not by the removal of the stone, because she already refers to it as "my own reality")
A: The infinity stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one stone…
She swoops away the time stone. A dark, branched flow emerges from the timeline following the motion of the stone.
A: and that flow splits. This may benefit your reality, but not my one.
(Supperhero: this is where things get messed up. So if you destroy the stones, you have no "time" anymore? What? No way. Maybe she meant that the Infinity Stones help stabilizing the ALREADY-BRANCHED timeline. She then says: "this may benefit your reality, but not my one". IT DOESNT BENEFIT HER ALREADY-EXISTENT REALITY)
A: In this new branch reality, without our weapon against the forces of darkness, millions will suffer. Can your science prevent that?
B: But we can erase it, we can return each one to its own timeline at the exact moment it was taken.
He grabs the green stone out of thin air from the direction of the flow.
B: So chronologically…
Places it back with the other stones
B: It never left.
He watches as the branch reality dusts and disappears
(Supperhero: the dark-colored branched reality "disappears", meaning that they will not suffer a terrible fate anymore, having the stone in its place... anyway, the time traveler exists in their past for a very brief moment, so the MCU reality splits anyway and the branched timeline is created, no matter what)
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pk9
Sophomore
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Post by pk9 on Apr 27, 2019 20:40:36 GMT
How do you know he altered the past? Peggy Carter basically disappears from the MCU timeline after Agent Carter season 2. We see just a couple of glimpses of her in her later life. It's entirely possible she was able to keep her private life a secret (she's a spy after all) to the world and to the audience. He's time travelled so he can shack up with Peggy. That is altering the past, it couldn't happen without time travel. It might not be as significant as some of the alterations, but it's significant enough. I don't think you're understanding my point. I'm talking about a Stable Time Loop, which is a common trope of time travel stories. Think Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, for example. Basically when a Stable Time Loop occurs, things that a time traveler does have ALWAYS been a part of the timeline. It's just that no one was aware of it until later on. This is actually a key part of Banner's argument; their plan was to replace the stones so the original timeline would never have been altered. I.e., the stones ALWAYS were taken and put back. It's implied that the little disruptions to the past (Thor's conversation with his mom, Tony's conversation with his dad, Captain America's fight with himself, etc) always happened - we just didn't see it onscreen. Even Loki's escape, it's implied that Captain America had a long adventure at the end where he captured Loki and brought him back to New York for his final scene in Avengers 1. So in this way, everything can proceed without creating a new branch. Of course, once past-Thanos becomes aware of this, it messes everything up, because he and his whole army jump out of the timestream and eventually die, so a new branch had to be created there.
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Post by deviates on Apr 27, 2019 20:57:20 GMT
He's time travelled so he can shack up with Peggy. That is altering the past, it couldn't happen without time travel. It might not be as significant as some of the alterations, but it's significant enough. I don't think you're understanding my point. I'm talking about a Stable Time Loop, which is a common trope of time travel stories. Think Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, for example. Basically when a Stable Time Loop occurs, things that a time traveler does have ALWAYS been a part of the timeline. It's just that no one was aware of it until later on. This is actually a key part of Banner's argument; their plan was to replace the stones so the original timeline would never have been altered. I.e., the stones ALWAYS were taken and put back. It's implied that the little disruptions to the past (Thor's conversation with his mom, Tony's conversation with his dad, Captain America's fight with himself, etc) always happened - we just didn't see it onscreen. Even Loki's escape, it's implied that Captain America had a long adventure at the end where he captured Loki and brought him back to New York for his final scene in Avengers 1. So in this way, everything can proceed without creating a new branch. Of course, once past-Thanos becomes aware of this, it messes everything up, because he and his whole army jump out of the timestream and eventually die, so a new branch had to be created there. I understand time loops, but what I gathered from the movie is this isn't how time travel in the Marvel universe works. Banner made the point that if by time travelling you alter the past it has no impact on the future, it just creates other timelines. What you're saying is that all of the 'disruptions' in the past 'always' happened, but it can only happen via time travel, hence contradicting Banners explanation. If what you said was accurate (I don't think it is, but I will consider it when I next see thr film) it would be a massive stretch to assume that everything we saw has always happened.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Apr 27, 2019 20:59:23 GMT
Well, you alter the past even just because you time travel in it. Your presence in the past is already an alteration/branching-off, no matter what you do or not do.
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Post by deviates on Apr 27, 2019 21:05:02 GMT
Well, you alter the past even just because you time travel in it. Your presence in the past is already an alteration/branching-off, no matter what you do or not do. Yes, the idea that returning the stones somehow means the timeline is unaltered doesn't make much sense to me.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Apr 28, 2019 9:39:43 GMT
Well, you alter the past even just because you time travel in it. Your presence in the past is already an alteration/branching-off, no matter what you do or not do. Yes, the idea that returning the stones somehow means the timeline is unaltered doesn't make much sense to me. Exactly.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 28, 2019 12:11:30 GMT
Time travel in movies is always silly.
There's no point in explaining it at all.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Apr 28, 2019 14:32:22 GMT
Time travel in movies is always silly. There's no point in explaining it at all. Most of the time it's well-thought, in truth. Well, it's a big fun anyway.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 28, 2019 15:15:09 GMT
Time travel in movies is always silly. There's no point in explaining it at all. Most of the time it's well-thought, in truth. Well, it's a big fun anyway. It is fun but it’s always a McGuffin progress the story. The only reason there is time travel is become the story necessitates it. That’s why Stark could invent it in 2 minutes when no one else in the universe could.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Apr 28, 2019 15:17:41 GMT
Most of the time it's well-thought, in truth. Well, it's a big fun anyway. It is fun but it’s always a McGuffin progress the story. The only reason there is time travel is become the story necessitates it. That’s why Stark could invent it in 2 minutes when no one else in the universe could. Yeah, that was forced.
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Post by deviates on Apr 28, 2019 17:32:24 GMT
Time travel in movies is always silly. There's no point in explaining it at all. Sure, to some extent. But you at least hope that the film sets rules to time travel that it then follows. Way too many films make such a mess of it, and I've got a feeling there's a couple of issues with Endgame in that respect.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 28, 2019 17:41:23 GMT
Time travel in movies is always silly. There's no point in explaining it at all. Sure, to some extent. But you at least hope that the film sets rules to time travel that it then follows. Way too many films make such a mess of it, and I've got a feeling there's a couple of issues with Endgame in that respect. I didn't have much problem with it beyond the notion of needing to return all of the rings. Thanos botched the timeline and erasing him made it impossible to fix or everything happens the same way depnding on what Stark's snap meant.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Apr 29, 2019 11:02:39 GMT
Time travel in movies is always silly. There's no point in explaining it at all. Sure, to some extent. But you at least hope that the film sets rules to time travel that it then follows. Way too many films make such a mess of it, and I've got a feeling there's a couple of issues with Endgame in that respect. Yeah, there are issues, it's undeniable.
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