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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 4, 2019 13:49:39 GMT
That would have been soooo predictable though. I like the idea someone other than Jon defeated the Night King. Jon isn't the only "hero" in the story - it's important to let other characters have a moment too. Jon already failed to get the NK in the air and on the ground with the NK easily batting away his attempts. It's almost like the Night King was already aware of anything Jon attempted to do (I think it's no coincidence the NK suddenly came to Hardhome just right after Jon successfully got the Wildlings to make peace and rally to his cause). The person to kill him needed to be someone who he wasn't suspecting and could have that element of surprise to his/her advantage. Like you stated, Jon has already defeated a White Walker at Hardhome. I think that fact would have taken away from the victory had he been the one to do it - kind of how it would have been the same if Sam had done it. It was also nice how they used the foreshadowing from season 7 where Bran gave Arya the dagger she would eventually use to thrust into the Night King. I would say it wasn't just Arya who defeated the Night King too. She may have given the final blow, but Jon, Theon, and Dany unknowingly helped distract the NK from obtaining his goal of killing Bran. If they each hadn't helped in their own ways, the Night King would have brought his sword down on Bran with one swift blow. There's no telling what that act would have been on Westeros, but I imagine it wouldn't be anything good! I agree with you that it would have been predictable. But in the other thread I proposed how to make it unpredictable. Jon would have had a sword fight and gotten disarmed by NK after a few exchanges. Just when he was about to get stabbed, Arya would have stabbed NK from behind (she is an assassin and that would have been OK). It would also have mirrored how Ned was saved by Howland Reed. This would have been lot more satisfying and also given a good reason for NK to die. Not being attentive because he was fighting Jon. But currently they are making meme on him & all his commanders being totally stupid. I can't figure out why the NK would bother fighting anyone when his power move would be to zerg rush in and kill everyone while he deals with Bran ( I assume he is the one that has to kill him). That's been his move everytime. In fact it was out of character that he killed Theon except that it was too easy. I mean what if his fighting skills are on par with the Walker Jon killed at Hardhome? Jon is painted as one of the best swordsmen on the show.
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Post by Aj_June on May 4, 2019 13:53:12 GMT
I agree with you that it would have been predictable. But in the other thread I proposed how to make it unpredictable. Jon would have had a sword fight and gotten disarmed by NK after a few exchanges. Just when he was about to get stabbed, Arya would have stabbed NK from behind (she is an assassin and that would have been OK). It would also have mirrored how Ned was saved by Howland Reed. This would have been lot more satisfying and also given a good reason for NK to die. Not being attentive because he was fighting Jon. But currently they are making meme on him & all his commanders being totally stupid. I can't figure out why the NK would bother fighting anyone when his power move would be to zerg rush in and kill everyone while he deals with Bran ( I assume he is the one that has to kill him). That's been his move everytime. In fact it was out of character that he killed Theon except that it was too easy. I mean what if his fighting skills are on par with the Walker Jon killed at Hardhome? Jon is painted as one of the best swordsmen on the show. He wouldn't purposefully choose to fight but Jon would have throw himself on his way. Theon did & NK got him cheaply. He would have likely gotten stiffer competition from Jon because Jon is a better swordsman and had Valyrian steel sword. Arya could just intervene in time.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on May 4, 2019 13:55:12 GMT
I agree with you that it would have been predictable. But in the other thread I proposed how to make it unpredictable. Jon would have had a sword fight and gotten disarmed by NK after a few exchanges. Just when he was about to get stabbed, Arya would have stabbed NK from behind (she is an assassin and that would have been OK). It would also have mirrored how Ned was saved by Howland Reed. This would have been lot more satisfying and also given a good reason for NK to die. Not being attentive because he was fighting Jon. But currently they are making meme on him & all his commanders being totally stupid. That would have been interesting, actually. Arrogance blinded the Night King. He's so smug throughout that episode! He thought he had it in the bag. The actor who plays the Night King said in an interview that the NK still retains a small part of his human side, so it makes sense that part of him got the better of him at Winterfell.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 4, 2019 14:01:01 GMT
I can't figure out why the NK would bother fighting anyone when his power move would be to zerg rush in and kill everyone while he deals with Bran ( I assume he is the one that has to kill him). That's been his move everytime. In fact it was out of character that he killed Theon except that it was too easy. I mean what if his fighting skills are on par with the Walker Jon killed at Hardhome? Jon is painted as one of the best swordsmen on the show. He wouldn't purposefully choose to fight but Jon would have throw himself on his way. Theon did & NK got him cheaply. He would have likely gotten stiffer competition from Jon because Jon is a better swordsman and had Valyrian steel sword. Arya could just intervene in time. I guess my point is the NK chooses what he does. He's the one that stops and starts the actions of everything he creates. He killed Theon, not because he had to, but because he wanted to do it. NK is not human and he doesn't need to suffer from the hubris of thinking he is a better fighter than Jon and see that play out. Heck, it's a good chance he isn't as good as Jon. His White Walkers aren't.
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Post by Vegas on May 4, 2019 14:37:37 GMT
I can't figure out why the NK would bother fighting anyone when his power move would be to zerg rush in and kill everyone while he deals with Bran ( I assume he is the one that has to kill him). That's been his move everytime. In fact it was out of character that he killed Theon except that it was too easy. I mean what if his fighting skills are on par with the Walker Jon killed at Hardhome? Jon is painted as one of the best swordsmen on the show. And that begs the question... Why was the NK there anyways?.... Why join the fray in any regard? He could have stayed far away.. and used his unconquerable drone army to kill everyone... including Bran.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on May 4, 2019 14:45:02 GMT
If they each hadn't helped in their own ways, the Night King would have brought his sword down on Bran with one swift blow. And yet when the time came, he was standing in front of Bran waiting. None of what happened before made him run out of time and we didn't see Arya rushing to get there. So either the show pulled the cheapest trick on the audience by inserting purely arbitrary waiting time without justification or there is something else to it. Given the abysmal quality of the writing everywhere else, I can fully believe in the first option but maybe there is hope for something that would not be as ridiculous.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 4, 2019 15:04:07 GMT
I can't figure out why the NK would bother fighting anyone when his power move would be to zerg rush in and kill everyone while he deals with Bran ( I assume he is the one that has to kill him). That's been his move everytime. In fact it was out of character that he killed Theon except that it was too easy. I mean what if his fighting skills are on par with the Walker Jon killed at Hardhome? Jon is painted as one of the best swordsmen on the show. And that begs the question... Why was the NK there anyways?.... Why join the fray in any regard? He could have stayed far away.. and used his unconquerable drone army to kill everyone... including Bran. I don;t think he would have joined it if not for having to kill Bran. Bran/3 Eyed Raven's connection is never explained well enough. While it appears that zombies can kill him, the NK is the one that carries it out as he did in the "Hold the Door" episode
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 4, 2019 15:06:23 GMT
I actually thought Bran was going to die and the NK was just going to die too.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2019 19:36:56 GMT
That would have been soooo predictable though. I like the idea someone other than Jon defeated the Night King. Jon isn't the only "hero" in the story - it's important to let other characters have a moment too. Jon already failed to get the NK in the air and on the ground with the NK easily batting away his attempts. It's almost like the Night King was already aware of anything Jon attempted to do (I think it's no coincidence the NK suddenly came to Hardhome just right after Jon successfully got the Wildlings to make peace and rally to his cause). The person to kill him needed to be someone who he wasn't suspecting and could have that element of surprise to his/her advantage. Like you stated, Jon has already defeated a White Walker at Hardhome. I think that fact would have taken away from the victory had he been the one to do it - kind of how it would have been the same if Sam had done it. It was also nice how they used the foreshadowing from season 7 where Bran gave Arya the dagger she would eventually use to thrust into the Night King. I would say it wasn't just Arya who defeated the Night King too. She may have given the final blow, but Jon, Theon, and Dany unknowingly helped distract the NK from obtaining his goal of killing Bran. If they each hadn't helped in their own ways, the Night King would have brought his sword down on Bran with one swift blow. There's no telling what that act would have been on Westeros, but I imagine it wouldn't be anything good! I agree with you that it would have been predictable. But in the other thread I proposed how to make it unpredictable. Jon would have had a sword fight and gotten disarmed by NK after a few exchanges. Just when he was about to get stabbed, Arya would have stabbed NK from behind (she is an assassin and that would have been OK). It would also have mirrored how Ned was saved by Howland Reed. This would have been lot more satisfying and also given a good reason for NK to die. Not being attentive because he was fighting Jon. But currently they are making meme on him & all his commanders being totally stupid. Looking back at it something like this crossed my mind too. The mirroring of Ned/Reed fighting that dude at the Tower of Joy. However the only tweak I'd make to this would be to mix what we actually got. Have Arya get caught trying to sneak up on the NK and do her hand switch knife trick as I did enjoy that call back. In the end we get Arya killing the NK instead of Jon and we also get to see the NK actually battle a bit. One of my biggest complaints of the episode was not seeing any of the White Walkers do any fighting. I'd of liked to have seen some of the main stay heroes fighting and killing some of them to try and give some of those lesser seen characters moments. Have characters like Brienne, Grey Worm, Tormund etc kill a few of the WW and watch as those that they had risen fall to try and turn the numbers game. To then only have the NK raise even more wights as he did in the episode but just designed/timed differently.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 4, 2019 20:07:12 GMT
I agree with you that it would have been predictable. But in the other thread I proposed how to make it unpredictable. Jon would have had a sword fight and gotten disarmed by NK after a few exchanges. Just when he was about to get stabbed, Arya would have stabbed NK from behind (she is an assassin and that would have been OK). It would also have mirrored how Ned was saved by Howland Reed. This would have been lot more satisfying and also given a good reason for NK to die. Not being attentive because he was fighting Jon. But currently they are making meme on him & all his commanders being totally stupid. Looking back at it something like this crossed my mind too. The mirroring of Ned/Reed fighting that dude at the Tower of Joy. However the only tweak I'd make to this would be to mix what we actually got. Have Arya get caught trying to sneak up on the NK and do her hand switch knife trick as I did enjoy that call back. In the end we get Arya killing the NK instead of Jon and we also get to see the NK actually battle a bit. One of my biggest complaints of the episode was not seeing any of the White Walkers do any fighting. I'd of liked to have seen some of the main stay heroes fighting and killing some of them to try and give some of those lesser seen characters moments. Have characters like Brienne, Grey Worm, Tormund etc kill a few of the WW and watch as those that they had risen fall to try and turn the numbers game. To then only have the NK raise even more wights as he did in the episode but just designed/timed differently. But they didn;t need to fight. The problem with shooting this at night is we have no idea how big the zombie army is except that it seems endless. This was the last shot we had of them: The North was doomed, so why would the WW involve themselves in such a piddly match unless it involved ensuring Bran was dead? The last intentional interaction with them was Hardhome and that was one dude trying to stop Jon getting the dragonglass because he thought it would be easy.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2019 20:19:42 GMT
Looking back at it something like this crossed my mind too. The mirroring of Ned/Reed fighting that dude at the Tower of Joy. However the only tweak I'd make to this would be to mix what we actually got. Have Arya get caught trying to sneak up on the NK and do her hand switch knife trick as I did enjoy that call back. In the end we get Arya killing the NK instead of Jon and we also get to see the NK actually battle a bit. One of my biggest complaints of the episode was not seeing any of the White Walkers do any fighting. I'd of liked to have seen some of the main stay heroes fighting and killing some of them to try and give some of those lesser seen characters moments. Have characters like Brienne, Grey Worm, Tormund etc kill a few of the WW and watch as those that they had risen fall to try and turn the numbers game. To then only have the NK raise even more wights as he did in the episode but just designed/timed differently. But they didn;t need to fight. The problem with shooting this at night is we have no idea how big the zombie army is except that it seems endless. This was the last shot we had of them: The North was doomed, so why would the WW involve themselves in such a piddly match unless it involved ensuring Bran was dead? The last intentional interaction with them was Hardhome and that was one dude trying to stop Jon getting the dragonglass because he thought it would be easy. That's cool and all. I'm simply expressing what I'd have liked to have seen. Maybe it makes sense to you that they didn't fight anyone but at the same time it doesn't really make a lot of sense to me just watching them stand there and doing nothing and letting themselves die as Arya kills the NK. Sure she snuck up on him and blah blah blah assassin blah blah blah. In the end it still just makes them look stupid and worthless. Which is why I'd have liked to have seen them do something. Whether or not they "needed to" idc. Just give me something other than just standing there. Again, this is just what I would have preferred as a viewer of the episode.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 4, 2019 20:31:25 GMT
But they didn;t need to fight. The problem with shooting this at night is we have no idea how big the zombie army is except that it seems endless. This was the last shot we had of them: The North was doomed, so why would the WW involve themselves in such a piddly match unless it involved ensuring Bran was dead? The last intentional interaction with them was Hardhome and that was one dude trying to stop Jon getting the dragonglass because he thought it would be easy. That's cool and all. I'm simply expressing what I'd have liked to have seen. Maybe it makes sense to you that they didn't fight anyone but at the same time it doesn't really make a lot of sense to me just watching them stand there and doing nothing and letting themselves die as Arya kills the NK. Sure she snuck up on him and blah blah blah assassin blah blah blah. In the end it still just makes them look stupid and worthless. Which is why I'd have liked to have seen them do something. Whether or not they "needed to" idc. Just give me something other than just standing there. Again, this is just what I would have preferred as a viewer of the episode. I'm just going back to what they've done in the past. As cool as anything would be to see I would always be wondering about the sense of it. But now I can understand why people are upset that the NK or them didn;t do much action scene wise regardless of their pattern. I just prefer consistency.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 20, 2019 14:20:31 GMT
Boy was I right to be concerned.
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Post by Winter_King on May 21, 2019 10:27:21 GMT
Or...they should’ve structured it so season 7 ended with the Long Night, and now you have 6 episodes to deal with the scraps of mankind fighting for the throne again. The problem is that these characters have literally survived the apocalypse...and we saw how ridiculously difficult they had it. So how can any of them die now that they made it through that? can Brienne die in a battle with random golden companymen #6 and have it be satisfying? Not after that last episode. I said the same thing myself.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on May 21, 2019 10:52:04 GMT
Or...they should’ve structured it so season 7 ended with the Long Night, and now you have 6 episodes to deal with the scraps of mankind fighting for the throne again. The problem is that these characters have literally survived the apocalypse...and we saw how ridiculously difficult they had it. So how can any of them die now that they made it through that? can Brienne die in a battle with random golden companymen #6 and have it be satisfying? Not after that last episode. I said the same thing myself. Or maybe there could have been less time spent showing wights running over Sam, people "reuniting" for fan service or dragons torching things and more meaningful dialogue and intrigue.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on May 21, 2019 19:50:34 GMT
...The more I hate the notion that the finale isn’t with the NK but for the throne which is so inconsequential now. I hate creating fan fiction but I’m not sure why they couldn’t have Cersei betray the North first just as zombies attack. I think they ruined this notion in last seasons finale though. I actually liked the last episode fine but it lessened the more powerful thing for the sake of matching up with the TV title. I agree that in a perfect world the build up to the battle with the Night King would have been the ultimate moment of the series. But I think they made a decision to go with drama over that.
The drama is in seeing Cersei finally get her's and in seeing the building division between Dany and Jon finally come to a head. The Night King wasn't a character surrounded by drama in quite the same way as the others.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 21, 2019 20:11:30 GMT
...The more I hate the notion that the finale isn’t with the NK but for the throne which is so inconsequential now. I hate creating fan fiction but I’m not sure why they couldn’t have Cersei betray the North first just as zombies attack. I think they ruined this notion in last seasons finale though. I actually liked the last episode fine but it lessened the more powerful thing for the sake of matching up with the TV title. I agree that in a perfect world the build up to the battle with the Night King would have been the ultimate moment of the series. But I think they made a decision to go with drama over that.
The drama is in seeing Cersei finally get her's and in seeing the building division between Dany and Jon finally come to a head. The Night King wasn't a character surrounded by drama in quite the same way as the others.
The drama should always match up to the story and end of the world stuff will usually trump who sits on the throne. The story could have kept the seam of the characters and matched it up to the bigger picture. It still could have capped with a battle for the throne but it should have been closer to the NK’s defeat. I always thought NK should have made it to KL.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on May 22, 2019 14:34:11 GMT
I agree that in a perfect world the build up to the battle with the Night King would have been the ultimate moment of the series. But I think they made a decision to go with drama over that.
The drama is in seeing Cersei finally get her's and in seeing the building division between Dany and Jon finally come to a head. The Night King wasn't a character surrounded by drama in quite the same way as the others.
The drama should always match up to the story and end of the world stuff will usually trump who sits on the throne. The story could have kept the seam of the characters and matched it up to the bigger picture. It still could have capped with a battle for the throne but it should have been closer to the NK’s defeat. I always thought NK should have made it to KL. That was my hope too. I wanted to see the army of the dead actually attacking Kings Landing! I wanted the Night King to kill way more people!
They didn't really need a "danarys turns into the mad queen" storyline. This whole season could have been about the army of the dead's inexorable march south, slaughtering everything along the way and increasing in numbers, culminating in a magnificent showdown within King Landing. The Night King should have made it into the Red Keep and been within reach of the Iron Throne. Drogon and Night Kings Dragon fighting over Kings Landing! WHAT?!?!? WOOT! WOOT!
And all the subplots could have been developed and wrapped up throughout along the way. High drama the entire season!
But what do I know?
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