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Post by jon snow loves sansa on May 14, 2019 13:33:33 GMT
I think we can safely say that Dany passed the point of no return down the road to Evil Town. I mean, she burnt kids alive AFTER the city had surrendered. Many people might be waiting to see which of the good guys that are left will kill her, perhaps taking the throne themselves to rule justly. But this is GoT, and if there's one thing the books and movies have taught us is that the bad guys actually win a lot. So the show started with a cold-hearted Queen in power (even if it was Robert who actually sat on the throne), and I think it could end with a cold-hearted Queen in power. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. To be fair, the stipulation is that the bells had to ring before the gates of King's Landing were breached. This didn't happen. Cersei "Took too long!" and tested Dany's promise to burn the city. Dany followed through with what she said she would do. Even after a surrender? the lannister soldiers threw their swords down and surrenders, i didnt see any delay by cersei once that happened soldiers and others on the ground started yelling ring the bells , cersei was waiting too , and then the bells rang ,dany saw that by above with her beast this is why dany is a mad person she doesnt even understand the concept of a surrender she is the worse of the worse so she thought best to take her beast and burn thousands of innocent babies
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on May 14, 2019 16:39:57 GMT
Even after a surrender? the lannister soldiers threw their swords down and surrenders, i didnt see any delay by cersei once that happened soldiers and others on the ground started yelling ring the bells , cersei was waiting too , and then the bells rang ,dany saw that by above with her beast this is why dany is a mad person she doesnt even understand the concept of a surrender she is the worse of the worse so she thought best to take her beast and burn thousands of innocent babies Even after. Dany's agreement with Tyrion was she wouldn't attack King's Landing if Cersei surrendered prior to being engaged - Cersei didn't do that. She waited until her ships were destroyed, her sellswords killed, and Dany sat on Drogon within eyesight. Cersei wasn't waiting for the bells to ring. She was trying to decide whether to ring them or not. Her soldiers couldn't ring the bell without her command (it's why the common people were crying out for her to decide to ring them). It's the same reason that the Lannister soldiers across from Jon/Greyworm looked to their commander and waited for him to surrender before putting their swords down. There's a hierarchy that has to be adhered to. Yes, she certainly did that...Jaime once remarked that there are over a million people in King's Landing. I do wonder how many have survived that? If at all. Cersei caused a lot of people to die. She gambled with their lives and tested Dany's promise to do what was necessary to end her enemies. It was foolish. I'm still appalled Dany slaughtered the innocent too.
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Post by jon snow loves sansa on May 14, 2019 21:30:58 GMT
Even after a surrender? the lannister soldiers threw their swords down and surrenders, i didnt see any delay by cersei once that happened soldiers and others on the ground started yelling ring the bells , cersei was waiting too , and then the bells rang ,dany saw that by above with her beast this is why dany is a mad person she doesnt even understand the concept of a surrender she is the worse of the worse so she thought best to take her beast and burn thousands of innocent babies Even after. Dany's agreement with Tyrion was she wouldn't attack King's Landing if Cersei surrendered prior to being engaged - Cersei didn't do that. She waited until her ships were destroyed, her sellswords killed, and Dany sat on Drogon within eyesight. Cersei wasn't waiting for the bells to ring. She was trying to decide whether to ring them or not. Her soldiers couldn't ring the bell without her command (it's why the common people were crying out for her to decide to ring them). It's the same reason that the Lannister soldiers across from Jon/Greyworm looked to their commander and waited for him to surrender before putting their swords down. There's a hierarchy that has to be adhered to. Yes, she certainly did that...Jaime once remarked that there are over a million people in King's Landing. I do wonder how many have survived that? If at all. Cersei caused a lot of people to die. She gambled with their lives and tested Dany's promise to do what was necessary to end her enemies. It was foolish. I'm still appalled Dany slaughtered the innocent too. no matter what cersei did or didnt do dany already had made her mind up what to do before battle began , she lied to tyrion and only she and greyworm/armies knew the real plan -thats how i read that whole discussion she had with tyrion if dany wanted to prove she was the queen of people breaker of chains and all that she went about doing it the wrong way
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on May 14, 2019 21:51:53 GMT
Even after a surrender? the lannister soldiers threw their swords down and surrenders, i didnt see any delay by cersei once that happened soldiers and others on the ground started yelling ring the bells , cersei was waiting too , and then the bells rang ,dany saw that by above with her beast this is why dany is a mad person she doesnt even understand the concept of a surrender she is the worse of the worse so she thought best to take her beast and burn thousands of innocent babies Even after. Dany's agreement with Tyrion was she wouldn't attack King's Landing if Cersei surrendered prior to being engaged - Cersei didn't do that. She waited until her ships were destroyed, her sellswords killed, and Dany sat on Drogon within eyesight. Cersei wasn't waiting for the bells to ring. She was trying to decide whether to ring them or not. Her soldiers couldn't ring the bell without her command (it's why the common people were crying out for her to decide to ring them). It's the same reason that the Lannister soldiers across from Jon/Greyworm looked to their commander and waited for him to surrender before putting their swords down. There's a hierarchy that has to be adhered to. If I understand this right, you think Cersei ordered the ringing of the bells? I wondered if we were supposed to think she did it offscreen as well my second time through the episode. While I agree there's a hierarchy, there's times when it breaks down and one of those is facing utter defeat.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on May 14, 2019 22:34:09 GMT
If I understand this right, you think Cersei ordered the ringing of the bells? I wondered if we were supposed to think she did it offscreen as well my second time through the episode. While I agree there's a hierarchy, there's times when it breaks down and one of those is facing utter defeat. Yes, she's queen and sits on the Iron Throne. It would be her decision to surrender the city or not. She had previously been given the opportunity to surrender, but instead lopped Missandei's head off. It's just like how the men of Riverrun had to surrender the castle when Edmure Tully commanded it (even though they really didn't want to). He was in charge.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on May 14, 2019 22:39:00 GMT
no matter what cersei did or didnt do dany already had made her mind up what to do before battle began , she lied to tyrion and only she and greyworm/armies knew the real plan -thats how i read that whole discussion she had with tyrion if dany wanted to prove she was the queen of people breaker of chains and all that she went about doing it the wrong way She did, but then Tyrion got her to change her mind and compromise on allowing Cersei to surrender before they attacked. That didn't happen. I don't think Greyworm knew anything. I'm paraphrasing but she told him that he "Would know what to do when the time came"...implying that it would be improvised on his part. True. Lighting up the people wasn't a good choice.
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Post by jon snow loves sansa on May 14, 2019 22:47:38 GMT
no matter what cersei did or didnt do dany already had made her mind up what to do before battle began , she lied to tyrion and only she and greyworm/armies knew the real plan -thats how i read that whole discussion she had with tyrion if dany wanted to prove she was the queen of people breaker of chains and all that she went about doing it the wrong way She did, but then Tyrion got her to change her mind and compromise on allowing Cersei to surrender before they attacked. That didn't happen. I don't think Greyworm knew anything. I'm paraphrasing but she told him that he "Would know what to do when the time came"...implying that it would be improvised on his part. True. Lighting up the people wasn't a good choice. If greyworm acted on his own free will then dany if she is a just queen should punish him and her armies they caused a living chaos on the ground sorry for missandei loosing her head but sansa lost her father, her mother , her brothers , she was abused , raped , she didnt go off on a killing spree -if greyworm was a real man what he should have done is run in red keep find the mountain who executed missaindei and kill him or help the hound kill him instead he started a un-necessary war on the ground .
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on May 14, 2019 22:55:32 GMT
If I understand this right, you think Cersei ordered the ringing of the bells? I wondered if we were supposed to think she did it offscreen as well my second time through the episode. While I agree there's a hierarchy, there's times when it breaks down and one of those is facing utter defeat. Yes, she's queen and sits on the Iron Throne. It would be her decision to surrender the city or not. She had previously been given the opportunity to surrender, but instead lopped Missandei's head off. It's just like how the men of Riverrun had to surrender the castle when Edmure Tully commanded it (even though they really didn't want to). He was in charge. I get that, but wondered if that logic applied to this situation. Those Tully men knew they were saving their lives with that surrender, it was much easier to dismiss the Blackfish's very accurate assessment that Lord Edmure was a prisoner and obeying the will of Jaime Lannister. They weren't as reluctant as you think, they were taking a way out.
In the same sense I initially got the impression that the Lannister soldiers surrendered to save their lives and the city, like Tyrion was hoping his siege and blockade strategy would compel them to eventually. I still don't know what they intended to show us, but I do understand your argument and allow it could very well be what we were supposed to think. Perhaps next episode they'll say something about it.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on May 14, 2019 23:01:18 GMT
If greyworm acted on his own free will then dany if she just queen should punish him and her armies they caused a living chaos on the ground sorry for missandei loosing her head but sansa lost her father, her mother , her brothers , she was abused , raped , she didnt go off on a killing spree -if greyworm was a real man what he should have done is run in red keep find the mountain who executed missaindei and kill him or help the hound kill him instead he started a un-necessary war on the ground . We're starting to get a little off topic...I'll address what you said, regardless. No, Greyworm doesn't need to be punished because Dany told him he would know what to do based on her own actions (basically it would be obvious). This implies that if Dany didn't attack, Greyworm wouldn't attack either and would take the Lannister forces as prisoners. Since she did attack though, he was free to attack as well. Sansa didn't promise to burn King's Landing if they didn't surrender (ring the bells) prior to the battle. She didn't have her word on the line. She isn't a fighter. She lacks the ability to go on a killing spree even if she wanted to.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on May 15, 2019 8:30:12 GMT
I'm not so sure. For one, I don't think Dany can rule with the remaining Starks alive. Jon and Sansa *might* bend the knee in fear/pragmatism, but Arya wouldn't. And after last episode, the groundwork is there for her to go after Dany. If she were to fail and die, Jon and Sansa would definitely not bend.
So you have those three deaths, + Tyrion who had failed Dany one time too many and likely wouldn't follow her still even if he could. That's a lot of beloved character deaths for one episode.
The simpler outcome for an 80 minute episode is that the common enemy - now Dany - dies.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on May 15, 2019 10:07:46 GMT
I'm not so sure. For one, I don't think Dany can rule with the remaining Starks alive. Jon and Sansa *might* bend the knee in fear/pragmatism, but Arya wouldn't. And after last episode, the groundwork is there for her to go after Dany. If she were to fail and die, Jon and Sansa would definitely not bend. So you have those three deaths, + Tyrion who had failed Dany one time too many and likely wouldn't follow her still even if he could. That's a lot of beloved character deaths for one episode. The simpler outcome for an 80 minute episode is that the common enemy - now Dany - dies. I still want Tyrion dead, though. And no one can change my mind now that I am a flat pelt under tons of rubble.
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