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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 23, 2019 16:26:48 GMT
Of course this doesn’t take into account the Dothraki who either we’re still following dead Danys rules that Grey Worm is the military leader which means the rule of death penalty for opposers.
Or they would follow their customand they would avenge their Khal’s murder.
Apparently Dany doesn’t have any remaining blood riders which would open another can of worms.
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on May 23, 2019 16:33:39 GMT
No, just pointing out that order didn't cover this situation.
Grey Worm went to them with Tyrion, the man who answered Danerys' charge of treason with 'and you destroyed a city' before flinging his Hand of the Queen badge amidst the rubble. I think the 'Kingsmoot' was impromptu, at least that's the impression I got.
Grey Worm's position was akin to holding the Pyramid in Meereen, it was pretty precarious, that army had to eat too. Jon is essentially a hostage, killing him outright just diminishes his assets. He can come to terms with the Lords of Westeros or kill Jon and reap the whirlwind.
I doubt it was impromptu. Otherwise there was little reason for all of them to be there. What was impromptu was asking Tyrion his opinion. They specifically said they couldn’t do anything until they picked who would rule and it was just in regards to Tyrion. It’s not at all like holding Mereen but if we were to assume that then we have to also assume that Grey Worm was in control as he was in Mereen militarily. Jon was not an asset at the time he murdered Dany. He was simply a murderer of Grey Worms leader and traitor to Dany himself which Grey Worm knows means death- instant death no less. Jon became a bargaining chip only for his own life. To me it’s silly to think that Grey Worm killed anyone who is a perceived threat to Dany but all of a sudden is so stupid he no longer knows what to do once someone actually kills her. It was very much like Meereen, except the city was ruined and the countryside a vast Realm where they were even more foreign. Yes, I assume Grey Worm commanded the city, but nothing else and that was a problem.
Grey Worm is not an impulsive guy, he thought it through and realized killing Jon might satisfy his need for vengeance but imperiled his position. He did the math.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 23, 2019 16:37:09 GMT
I doubt it was impromptu. Otherwise there was little reason for all of them to be there. What was impromptu was asking Tyrion his opinion. They specifically said they couldn’t do anything until they picked who would rule and it was just in regards to Tyrion. It’s not at all like holding Mereen but if we were to assume that then we have to also assume that Grey Worm was in control as he was in Mereen militarily. Jon was not an asset at the time he murdered Dany. He was simply a murderer of Grey Worms leader and traitor to Dany himself which Grey Worm knows means death- instant death no less. Jon became a bargaining chip only for his own life. To me it’s silly to think that Grey Worm killed anyone who is a perceived threat to Dany but all of a sudden is so stupid he no longer knows what to do once someone actually kills her. It was very much like Meereen, except the city was ruined and the countryside a vast Realm where they were even more foreign. Yes, I assume Grey Worm commanded the city, but nothing else and that was a problem.
Grey Worm is not an impulsive guy, he thought it through and realized killing Jon might satisfy his need for vengeance but imperiled his position. He did the math.
Killing Jon who murdered Dany would not have been an impulsive action based on the laws and rules he followed by Dany or the Unsullied. What would have been impulsive is the North declaring War for killing Jon who just murdered Dany. Let’s reverse the roles. If Grey Worm had killed Sansa would Jon wait to kill Grey Worm? Remember Jon was about to fight him over a nameless Lannister and killed his own man when, for whatever reason, dragon fire encourage him to attempt a rape. |
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on May 23, 2019 16:49:23 GMT
It was very much like Meereen, except the city was ruined and the countryside a vast Realm where they were even more foreign. Yes, I assume Grey Worm commanded the city, but nothing else and that was a problem.
Grey Worm is not an impulsive guy, he thought it through and realized killing Jon might satisfy his need for vengeance but imperiled his position. He did the math.
Killing Jon who murdered Dany would not have been an impulsive action based on the laws and rules he followed by Dany or the Unsullied. Think about it, then he'd have to go to everyone and tell them when Jon himself would confess it. Grey Worm killing Jon would make people wonder if he had killed both. Killing Jon satisfies a need for vengeance but makes his life infinitely more difficult.
Plus he's living in the ashes where once stood a city, executing Jon only goes to reinforce the idea he's a savage, demanding Jon face justice doesn't.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 23, 2019 16:52:16 GMT
Killing Jon who murdered Dany would not have been an impulsive action based on the laws and rules he followed by Dany or the Unsullied. Think about it, then he'd have to go to everyone and tell them when Jon himself would confess it. Grey Worm killing Jon would make people wonder if he had killed both. Killing Jon satisfies a need for vengeance but makes his life infinitely more difficult.
Plus he's living in the ashes where once stood a city, executing Jon only goes to reinforce the idea he's a savage, demanding Jon face justice doesn't.
1. Why would it matter if Jon confessed it if the penalty is death. Varys confessed too. 2. You keep pretending this would be vengeance as if there is NO OTHER REASON out there. It has nothing to do with vengeance unless you are writing the story. |
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Post by lenlenlen1 on May 23, 2019 17:28:32 GMT
To me it’s silly to think that Grey Worm killed anyone who is a perceived threat to Dany but all of a sudden is so stupid he no longer knows what to do once someone actually kills her. ^^^THIS^^^ I think he would have killed him immediately... irl. LOL! And the Dothraki!!! Do you think they would have sat around calmly waiting for a council? BOTHAK CRATH KOOKROCK! Which translates to "Homey don't play dat!"
Or for that matter Drogon. Why didn't Drogon kill him?
Here's what I had hoped for... Drogon blows fire on Jon, but it doesn't kill Jon because Targaryens survive fire, like Dany has shown several times. Drogon sees a new master in Jon and flies off with him. Woot! Woot!
But no...
Also, if Bran is a Warg he should be able to control Drogon, probably in a more direct way than even Dany could! But... we'll never know... no sequel... I guess when the Three Eyed Raven said Bran would fly he only meant crows.
(p.s. while on the topic? Why did Bran send off crows to fly during the Long Night fight? Nothing came of that. Unless it was just to attract the Night kings attention...? Oh well.)
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 23, 2019 17:44:24 GMT
To me it’s silly to think that Grey Worm killed anyone who is a perceived threat to Dany but all of a sudden is so stupid he no longer knows what to do once someone actually kills her. ^^^THIS^^^ I think he would have killed him immediately... irl. LOL
Or for that matter Drogon. Why didn't Drogon kill him?
Here's what I had hoped for... Drogon blows fire on Jon, but it doesn't kill Jon because Targaryens survive fire, like Dany has shown several times. Drogon sees a new master in Jon and flies off with him. Woot! Woot!
But no...
Also, if Bran is a Warg he should be able to control Drogon, probably in a more direct way than even Dany could! But... we'll never know... no sequel... I guess when the Three Eyed Raven said Bran would fly he only meant crows.
(p.s. while on the topic? Why did Bran send off crows to fly during the Long Night fight? Nothing came of that. Unless it was just to attract the Night kings attention...? Oh well.)
Drogon I get because he was also had a connection with Jon as a Targaryen and knew Jon loved Dany. I also think dragons are smarter than a pet and while he cared nothing about human life he knew what corrupted his mother and why she died. Bran was using the crows to track the NK and the battle. This is why I find it hard to believe that Bran knew he would be king until they implied it. |
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Post by shadyvsesham on May 24, 2019 13:48:16 GMT
Remember when GOT had no questions unanswered and all questions got answered?
Yea, I miss those seasons too. Now all we got is a guessing show....
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pk9
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Post by pk9 on May 24, 2019 19:42:02 GMT
I think one contributing factor may be if you look at his facial expressions and body language throughout the episode, I think he may have also been losing faith in Dany and realizing that she was going off the deep end. So he was conflicted; he was angry that his Queen who he loved was murdered, but he also knew she was going to lead them down a path where many more innocents would die.
Of course, it would have been nice if these things were actually written into the story, rather than making us guess.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 24, 2019 21:12:55 GMT
I think one contributing factor may be if you look at his facial expressions and body language throughout the episode, I think he may have also been losing faith in Dany and realizing that she was going off the deep end. So he was conflicted; he was angry that his Queen who he loved was murdered, but he also knew she was going to lead them down a path where many more innocents would die. Of course, it would have been nice if these things were actually written into the story, rather than making us guess. I think it was what people were think Jaime should have done with Cersei. Unlike Jaime who is weak in relation to Cersei, Jon plowed through and did his duty over love. Jaime chose love over duty. I think this was all supposed to be evident by the acting and it just doesn’t work with Jon and Dany. The writing is the only indication of how much he loves her. It works better with Jaime and Cersei though since it’s been around since the beginning and their romance despite the invest is as bumpy as normal relationships. |
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on May 25, 2019 6:13:05 GMT
I think one contributing factor may be if you look at his facial expressions and body language throughout the episode, I think he may have also been losing faith in Dany and realizing that she was going off the deep end. So he was conflicted; he was angry that his Queen who he loved was murdered, but he also knew she was going to lead them down a path where many more innocents would die. Of course, it would have been nice if these things were actually written into the story, rather than making us guess. Unlike Jaime who is weak in relation to Cersei, Jon plowed through and did his duty over love. Jaime chose love over duty. I think this was all supposed to be evident by the acting and it just doesn’t work with Jon and Dany. The writing is the only indication of how much he loves her. Having not seen the previous episodes, I cannot draw conclusions but Jon's behaviour was somewhat confusing in the finale. jon snow loves sansa kept saying he never loved Daenerys, yet the writing tells us he did. Was that really just badly executed? Is Kit Harington a bad actor (I don't think so) or was the directing demanding this as preparation for the big twist? The Jon I saw in the finale is a man torn between duty to his engagement, he bent the knee in exchange for help against the Night King, and his own values. The sworn ally cannot be the "shield that guards the realms of men". Love barely seems to play a role in all this. "You're my queen" is not exactly "I love you". Jaime loves Cersei and it's not a weakness, on the contrary. It has been his strength all along. In the end it is what enables both to meet their fate. Jaime didn't die "protecting his queen" but consoling the one he loved, the one he chose in spite of the rest of the world. Jon never seems to know what he wants and is shown crumbling. I suppose that's what we are meant to see of his "love". To me it comes as the weakness of a man who dislikes making choices, a man who has no values of his own after all, only borrowed principles. That's why he finds it so difficult. Maybe that's why he goes north at the end. All in all, this story glorifies the weak and celebrates misfits.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on May 25, 2019 6:23:48 GMT
SPOILERS just in case
How did everyone know that Jon killed Dany? Did that dumb ass just tell everyone? Drogon had taken her, the evidence, away. No one would have known. His dumb ass is honest to a fault! WTF?
And if he did tell everyone why didn't the unsullied or Dothraki kill him immediately? How did he live long enough to even be a prisoner? Jon would be the Dothraki’s new Khal since he killed Dany. Unsullied wanted to avoid a war with the North and Freefolk they likely lose.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on May 25, 2019 6:46:23 GMT
Jon would be the Dothraki’s new Khal since he killed Dany. That would have been a scene 
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 25, 2019 12:38:45 GMT
Unlike Jaime who is weak in relation to Cersei, Jon plowed through and did his duty over love. Jaime chose love over duty. I think this was all supposed to be evident by the acting and it just doesn’t work with Jon and Dany. The writing is the only indication of how much he loves her. Having not seen the previous episodes, I cannot draw conclusions but Jon's behaviour was somewhat confusing in the finale. jon snow loves sansa kept saying he never loved Daenerys, yet the writing tells us he did. Was that really just badly executed? Is Kit Harington a bad actor (I don't think so) or was the directing demanding this as preparation for the big twist? The Jon I saw in the finale is a man torn between duty to his engagement, he bent the knee in exchange for help against the Night King, and his own values. The sworn ally cannot be the "shield that guards the realms of men". Love barely seems to play a role in all this. "You're my queen" is not exactly "I love you". Jaime loves Cersei and it's not a weakness, on the contrary. It has been his strength all along. In the end it is what enables both to meet their fate. Jaime didn't die "protecting his queen" but consoling the one he loved, the one he chose in spite of the rest of the world. Jon never seems to know what he wants and is shown crumbling. I suppose that's what we are meant to see of his "love". To me it comes as the weakness of a man who dislikes making choices, a man who has no values of his own after all, only borrowed principles. That's why he finds it so difficult. Maybe that's why he goes north at the end. All in all, this story glorifies the weak and celebrates misfits.
I do think screen chemistry is needed regardless of how good the actor is. It's very possible that he didn;t love Dany, but nothing in the finale could lead us to that view except the lack of chemistry they've had since before this season. They just never looked like a couple even before he found out she was his auntie. To be clear, Jon doing his duty is very much similar to Ned doing his duty which is not the same thing as being honorable. Jon wasn't doing this for the realms of men, but specifically to protect his family from Dany. She was asking him to help her kill all of her enemies and Sansa moved to the top of the list. Jaime being strong for Cersei is weakness. If his love for her was in any kind of balance, their fate could have been different.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on May 25, 2019 13:14:38 GMT
I do think screen chemistry is needed regardless of how good the actor is. It's very possible that he didn;t love Dany, but nothing in the finale could lead us to that view except the lack of chemistry they've had since before this season. They just never looked like a couple even before he found out she was his auntie. To be clear, Jon doing his duty is very much similar to Ned doing his duty which is not the same thing as being honorable. Jon wasn't doing this for the realms of men, but specifically to protect his family from Dany. She was asking him to help her kill all of her enemies and Sansa moved to the top of the list. Jon's words in the finale are an interesting mess. He keeps telling everyone she is the queen, invoking loyalty. For a short moment, he excuses her, which can pass as love or maybe he is trying to excuse himself for still standing with her but he soon reverts to loyalty as only argument. Tyrion says "I know you love her" and Jon only replies with "love is the death of duty". Does he mean anything? Is he acknowledging it? Or is the dumb Stark, taught from birth on to only "think" in received sayings and adopted principles, merely repeating someone else's words because that fool never had the balls to have an opinion of his own? So he picks up whatever he can find in his dictionary of "Smart Sounding Sayings by Recognised People". Tyrion reacts immediately: "You just came up with that?" No, of course not. Facing Daenerys he comes with something original at last: "You can forgive all of them, make them see they made a mistake. Make them understand. Please, Dany. We can't hide behind small mercies." It is naive and begging but at least it's something. Then he fails to lie and kills her. He will then say "it doesn't feel right", which goes back to loyalty more than love as the obstacle. Jon Snow is a man incapable of accepting his own right to have desires.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on May 25, 2019 16:31:52 GMT
SPOILERS just in case
How did everyone know that Jon killed Dany? Did that dumb ass just tell everyone? Drogon had taken her, the evidence, away. No one would have known. His dumb ass is honest to a fault! WTF?
And if he did tell everyone why didn't the unsullied or Dothraki kill him immediately? How did he live long enough to even be a prisoner? Unsullied wanted to avoid a war with the North and Freefolk they likely lose. That's right. But again... wrap it up!
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Post by bluerisk on May 25, 2019 21:03:38 GMT
Why wasn't Jon put on trial?
Why wasn't he present to explain himself and to plead guilty or not guilty?
Why wasn't he tried?!
She killed hundred of thousands of innocent citizens. She had disqualified herself as queen. A queen* who attacks her own people without a just cause has failed her duty and committed treason to the people and the realm.
She also killed the "kings" (=> she killed all khals by fire) of the Dothraki, the legal rulers of the slave cities...by what right?! Jon has the stronger claim, what makes her also an usurper.
*de facto she is no queen by any right but conquer and thus an usurper. And if you rule by the right of conquer (like the Dothraki khals did), you live and die by the sword.
It is either Jon (house Targaryen /or right of conquer) or Gendry (house Baratheon) or Bran (by prince electors) but never Daenarys. Her claim was only by the right of conquer, and she lost in this regard to Jon.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on May 26, 2019 6:25:45 GMT
Why wasn't Jon put on trial? Why wasn't he present to explain himself and to plead guilty or not guilty? Why wasn't he tried?! She killed hundred of thousands of innocent citizens. She had disqualified herself as queen. A queen* who attacks her own people without a just cause has failed her duty and committed treason to the people and the realm. She also killed the "kings" (=> she killed all khals by fire) of the Dothraki, the legal rulers of the slave cities...by what right?! Jon has the stronger claim, what makes her also an usurper. *de facto she is no queen by any right but conquer and thus an usurper. And if you rule by the right of conquer (like the Dothraki khals did), you live and die by the sword. It is either Jon (house Targaryen /or right of conquer) or Gendry (house Baratheon) or Bran (by prince electors) but never Daenarys. Her claim was only by the right of conquer, and she lost in this regard to Jon. Daenerys was a foreign aggressor without any legal claim or justification but the authors make her look justified. Her only fault, according to the writing, is to have "killed innocents when it was no longer needed" but she was doing that the moment she set foot on Dragonstone and sent soldiers out anywhere. Tyrion remains her loyal servant in this by claiming to have served her purpose. He is no better and shares full responsibility. This is what the left does. It shits on your rug then tells you how good it is to ask you to wipe its arse.
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Post by jon snow loves sansa on May 26, 2019 20:07:06 GMT
Unlike Jaime who is weak in relation to Cersei, Jon plowed through and did his duty over love. Jaime chose love over duty. I think this was all supposed to be evident by the acting and it just doesn’t work with Jon and Dany. The writing is the only indication of how much he loves her. Having not seen the previous episodes, I cannot draw conclusions but Jon's behaviour was somewhat confusing in the finale. jon snow loves sansa kept saying he never loved Daenerys, yet the writing tells us he did. Was that really just badly executed? Is Kit Harington a bad actor (I don't think so) or was the directing demanding this as preparation for the big twist? The Jon I saw in the finale is a man torn between duty to his engagement, he bent the knee in exchange for help against the Night King, and his own values. The sworn ally cannot be the "shield that guards the realms of men". Love barely seems to play a role in all this. "You're my queen" is not exactly "I love you". Jaime loves Cersei and it's not a weakness, on the contrary. It has been his strength all along. In the end it is what enables both to meet their fate. Jaime didn't die "protecting his queen" but consoling the one he loved, the one he chose in spite of the rest of the world. Jon never seems to know what he wants and is shown crumbling. I suppose that's what we are meant to see of his "love". To me it comes as the weakness of a man who dislikes making choices, a man who has no values of his own after all, only borrowed principles. That's why he finds it so difficult. Maybe that's why he goes north at the end. All in all, this story glorifies the weak and celebrates misfits.
well said i agree when you see a man in love like jamie was with cersei contrast to jon and dany was like night and day , i think they assassinated jons character in the finale , it was awful to see how they diminished him ,someone who stood up for principles , for what was right , someone who is against burning suddenly questioning be doubtful or if it was right to stop dany who was planning to conquer and burn whoever stood in the way , and youre right saying to someone "you are my queen" is not i love you , and jon only told her once that he did love her ,when dany was crying to him no one has love for her there, and even she didnt believe him and told him love out of fear- so let it be fear- which has been danys entire theme "fear" from what i read they were a lot of scenes filmed made the actors very confused about the story that didnt make the finale including an epilogue personally i think they left a lot of hole gaps for GRRM to fill in the books .
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on May 27, 2019 9:24:20 GMT
i agree when you see a man in love like jamie was with cersei contrast to jon and dany was like night and day , i think they assassinated jons character in the finale , it was awful to see how they diminished him ,someone who stood up for principles , for what was right , someone who is against burning suddenly questioning be doubtful or if it was right to stop dany who was planning to conquer and burn whoever stood in the way … personally i think they left a lot of hole gaps for GRRM to fill in the books . Jon handled conflict better in earlier seasons. He had no such trouble deciding to save the wildlings in S5. He went to Maester Aemon with the question but wasn't made to look like a feeling wreck about it. He had no trouble leaving the Night's Watch after coming back either, even though Edd made a compelling argument against it. Jon was able to resolve conflicting principles and take decisions before. Jon "in love" was a very different man then, and yet he never seemed to be before? To the point where people would convincingly theorise he was just using Daenerys for the higher goal he had. Yet, I don't think the books will end any differently. Maybe Jon will be more convincingly in love at least. Or maybe we'll get whole chapters of his naughty thoughts to make up for it. My guess is that it will be interesting to contrast disparaging reviews book fans make of the show today with those they'll make of the books basically pulling out the same junk in a more logical looking way.
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