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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2019 9:44:50 GMT
Morning here... Was thinking of marriage for some reason. It is a marriage. Don't be difficult... you know what I mean.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on May 23, 2019 9:48:33 GMT
Don't be difficult... you know what I mean. Okay. I won't be difficult.....this time.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 23, 2019 10:46:37 GMT
Thus is why I asked you to explain yourself. Jesus and any other servant of God benefitted other people You never explained why God would need them and what I said seems like an oddity to you. Why should I explain when I am asking the questions? I don't get why God a needed anyone or anything else for anything! He's fucking God FFS!!! If you think your question should stand on its own without any context then I guess there's not much more to say than what I've said.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 23, 2019 10:51:38 GMT
If you think your question should stand on its own without any context then I guess there's not much more to say than what I've said. You don't have a context yourself Cool, so can't answer and will deflect, which you do often. I already answered the question twice based on what I was supposed to understand it to be. If a question doesn't need explanation then an answer can't be expounded and thus it's impossible to deflect it.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 23, 2019 11:29:00 GMT
I already answered the question twice based on what I was supposed to understand it to be. If a question doesn't need explanation then an answer can't be expounded and thus it's impossible to deflect it. The answer is THE explanation, which is failing you, so pretending the question doesn't need an explanation, when a question is asking for some clarification, is YOUR deflection to own, because you don't know the answer. Just say so, rather than pretend that others don't know what they are talking about, when this is just self-projection from yourself. I didn't realize Goz was passing out a quiz. I guess I failed, but I also didn;t know what the study material was which is poor teaching. If the question is asking for clarification, then there would need to be an explanation of what needs clarifying. What needed clarifying that my answer didn;t address?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 23, 2019 11:46:04 GMT
I didn't realize Goz was passing out a quiz. I guess I failed, but I also didn;t know what the study material was which is poor teaching. If the question is asking for clarification, then there would need to be an explanation of what needs clarifying. What needed clarifying that my answer didn;t address? Pretty much your whole stance on what God is, what Jesus is to God and why did God need Jesus if God is everything? what is my stance if what God is? I don’t think I ever said God is everything so why would my answer need to include that ridiculous assumption? I already answered the notion of God needing Jesus. It looks like you’re losing yet another battle with me but it may take you a page or two to figure that out.
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Post by Rodney Farber on May 23, 2019 13:00:36 GMT
I believe Jesus' purpose was to spread the word of God. To teach. Jesus and his disciples hit the streets to spread the good word. I believe that was his purpose. Also, before Jesus, I don't believe there was a way for anyone to go to heaven. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm pretty sure Jesus' death was the only way anyone, past or present, would have a chance to go to heaven. So that's another reason God needed him. Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell, Mary Baker Eddy, Robert Tilton, Kenneth Copeland, L. Ron Hubbard and countless others "spread the good word" (or at least their own definition of the good word). Are they all equivalent to Jesus? How do you know? Why do you believe what's in the Bible but you eschew the Quran or the Book of Mormon?
Whether you believe the earth is 4 billion years old or 6 thousand, why would Jehovah wait until Jesus to create Heaven. What about all the people who died before Jesus, were they just out of luck? If Heaven is eternal in the future, it should have been eternal in the past.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 23, 2019 15:09:07 GMT
I believe Jesus' purpose was to spread the word of God. To teach. Jesus and his disciples hit the streets to spread the good word. I believe that was his purpose. Also, before Jesus, I don't believe there was a way for anyone to go to heaven. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm pretty sure Jesus' death was the only way anyone, past or present, would have a chance to go to heaven. So that's another reason God needed him. Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell, Mary Baker Eddy, Robert Tilton, Kenneth Copeland, L. Ron Hubbard and countless others "spread the good word" (or at least their own definition of the good word). Are they all equivalent to Jesus? How do you know? Why do you believe what's in the Bible but you eschew the Quran or the Book of Mormon?
Whether you believe the earth is 4 billion years old or 6 thousand, why would Jehovah wait until Jesus to create Heaven. What about all the people who died before Jesus, were they just out of luck? If Heaven is eternal in the future, it should have been eternal in the past.
[Each one of those people give the answer to your question. If they don’t provide an answer, then pass on them. However it’s pretty silly to pretend that the teachings are based on any one individual that isn’t Jesus if they are claiming to be Christian. Then again you seem to be the historian so prove me wrong.
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Post by mikef6 on May 23, 2019 19:48:09 GMT
Early in these boards’ history, I wrote up a long-ish answer to a similar question so I hope it’s all right to post a repeat (mildly edited to reflect the specifics of this thread).
In the church fathers (the first thousand years of Christianity), Jesus was represented as a kind of ransom, really a trick, played by God on Satan to redeem the world. It went something like: this world belongs to Satan as acknowledged in Jesus’ Temptations in the wilderness. Satan thought he was winning when he got Jesus crucified, but God had allowed that to happen so Jesus could triumph over death and win the decisive victory.
Then along came Anselm of Canterbury, later St. Anselm (1033-1109). Anselm considered Jesus to be satisfaction of the Honor Of God. A ruler cannot rule unless his Honor is upheld. Even though God loves Humanity, he can’t let their sins be overlooked. A more modern example would be King Arthur who loved both his wife, Guinevere, and her lover, Lancelot. As a man, he could overlook the adultery, but as King he had to go to war for his honor or give up his rule. Jesus' death on the cross satisfied God's Honor.
Later theologians like St. Thomas of Aquinas and the Swiss Reformers (Calvin and Zwingli, e.g.) built on this, saying that it was God’s Righteousness, not his Honor, that needed satisfaction. So, Jesus suffered for all Humanity’s sins to give that satisfaction. This final version is the “substitution theory” of atonement that many Christians not only believe in, but believe that this is clearly the Biblical “meaning of the life and death of Jesus” even though it was unknown for the first half of the existence of Christianity.
Now, many so-called “liberal” Christians are abandoning the substitution theory (and it is a theory in the sense of “theory,” NOT like a scientific theory such as evolution). Many are picking up on the part of Jesus’ nature that so many fundamentalists downgrade and ignore: his fully human nature. In this idea, Jesus and the cross represent God in human form who lived, suffered injustice, and a painful and messy death – like every other human - but then overcame death and can now be said to understand what we go through in life’s trials and come out the other side. The Death and Resurrection of Jesus, then, models the journey of Christians: when we fail or life lands us a blow (whether from our own actions or not), victory and a new life is always possible. This theory of the human Jesus looks at Jesus’ life and example – another part of Christianity that conservatives often don’t want to talk about because of how it contradicts their secular political beliefs.
So basically (after all my rambling), Christianity has always held that Jesus’ becoming human and dying as he did was necessary to take care of something in humanity that they could not mend themselves in order to find God.
So, if God is God, why not just overlook humans’ shortcomings without all this drama? Well, that is another theological point about how God deliberately limits himself to allow for human free will. But I will let someone else go into that.
BTW, I am just explaining theological history, not my own beliefs.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 23, 2019 20:40:13 GMT
Early in these boards’ history, I wrote up a long-ish answer to a similar question so I hope it’s all right to post a repeat (mildly edited to reflect the specifics of this thread). In the church fathers (the first thousand years of Christianity), Jesus was represented as a kind of ransom, really a trick, played by God on Satan to redeem the world. It went something like: this world belongs to Satan as acknowledged in Jesus’ Temptations in the wilderness. Satan thought he was winning when he got Jesus crucified, but God had allowed that to happen so Jesus could triumph over death and win the decisive victory. Then along came Anselm of Canterbury, later St. Anselm (1033-1109). Anselm considered Jesus to be satisfaction of the Honor Of God. A ruler cannot rule unless his Honor is upheld. Even though God loves Humanity, he can’t let their sins be overlooked. A more modern example would be King Arthur who loved both his wife, Guinevere, and her lover, Lancelot. As a man, he could overlook the adultery, but as King he had to go to war for his honor or give up his rule. Jesus' death on the cross satisfied God's Honor. Later theologians like St. Thomas of Aquinas and the Swiss Reformers (Calvin and Zwingli, e.g.) built on this, saying that it was God’s Righteousness, not his Honor, that needed satisfaction. So, Jesus suffered for all Humanity’s sins to give that satisfaction. This final version is the “substitution theory” of atonement that many Christians not only believe in, but believe that this is clearly the Biblical “meaning of the life and death of Jesus” even though it was unknown for the first half of the existence of Christianity. Now, many so-called “liberal” Christians are abandoning the substitution theory (and it is a theory in the sense of “theory,” NOT like a scientific theory such as evolution). Many are picking up on the part of Jesus’ nature that so many fundamentalists downgrade and ignore: his fully human nature. In this idea, Jesus and the cross represent God in human form who lived, suffered injustice, and a painful and messy death – like every other human - but then overcame death and can now be said to understand what we go through in life’s trials and come out the other side. The Death and Resurrection of Jesus, then, models the journey of Christians: when we fail or life lands us a blow (whether from our own actions or not), victory and a new life is always possible. This theory of the human Jesus looks at Jesus’ life and example – another part of Christianity that conservatives often don’t want to talk about because of how it contradicts their secular political beliefs. So basically (after all my rambling), Christianity has always held that Jesus’ becoming human and dying as he did was necessary to take care of something in humanity that they could not mend themselves in order to find God. So, if God is God, why not just overlook humans’ shortcomings without all this drama? Well, that is another theological point about how God deliberately limits himself to allow for human free will. But I will let someone else go into that. BTW, I am just explaining theological history, not my own beliefs. This is flawed since it assumes Satan didn’t know of a plan God implemented back in Eden. If Satan were as clueless as implied there would have never been a reason to tempt Jesus in the first place. This explanation though goes on toberify God wasn’t the one needing Jesus. Regarding the second far more common theiphibiac question of why God could forgive human shortcomings, the answer is as simple as 2 reasons: 1. There’s no reason for him to. The terms were laid out and if we don’t measure up we don’t measure up. Lowering his standards shouldnt even be an expectation considering everyone has an opportunity and possibility to live up to his standards. Wicked people simply prefer death. I mean why would he want you there lol? 2. The correct answer that everyone will ignore is that God cannot break his own standards. So if you don’t measure up to something worthy of life then something needs to make up the difference. While that something could have been any perfect human, Jesus was the best option of all things perfect as his Master Worker None of that, however, is what goz asked.
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Post by mikef6 on May 23, 2019 21:21:42 GMT
This is flawed since it assumes Satan didn’t know of a plan God implemented back in Eden. None of that, however, is what goz asked. I think it is all flawed. That is why I gave my disclaimer that I was only describing theological history. Her question was: "Why did 'God' need 'Jesus'?" I addressed some major answers that have been given through history.
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Post by goz on May 23, 2019 21:31:51 GMT
Jesus is God. Now... this is where things get a bit more complicated. Jesus is also wholly human. If he is wholly human, who was his father and what was his father's DNA component in Jesus? Why do you say at other times Jesus IS God? With respect it is not complicated it is.....fanciful.
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Post by goz on May 23, 2019 21:36:55 GMT
Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell, Mary Baker Eddy, Robert Tilton, Kenneth Copeland, L. Ron Hubbard and countless others "spread the good word" (or at least their own definition of the good word). Are they all equivalent to Jesus? How do you know? Why do you believe what's in the Bible but you eschew the Quran or the Book of Mormon?
Whether you believe the earth is 4 billion years old or 6 thousand, why would Jehovah wait until Jesus to create Heaven. What about all the people who died before Jesus, were they just out of luck? If Heaven is eternal in the future, it should have been eternal in the past.
Honestly I don't know. And that's the million dollar question. I don't know if goz really wanted to know, or if she's just phishing, but I tried to answer the best I could. I'm using fuzzy math and memories from a teenager that doesn't exist anymore lol, so it's not a great answer, but it's the only one I have lol. The Herald's answer also makes a lot of sense to me. WTF has that got to do with starting a topic for discussion on a religious message board? I wouldn't have started it if I didn't want to know what people's opinions are on the topic. End of story.
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Post by goz on May 23, 2019 21:42:29 GMT
The answer is THE explanation, which is failing you, so pretending the question doesn't need an explanation, when a question is asking for some clarification, is YOUR deflection to own, because you don't know the answer. Just say so, rather than pretend that others don't know what they are talking about, when this is just self-projection from yourself. I didn't realize Goz was passing out a quiz. I guess I failed, but I also didn;t know what the study material was which is poor teaching. If the question is asking for clarification, then there would need to be an explanation of what needs clarifying. What needed clarifying that my answer didn;t address? I asked a simple question. Your life and faith is the study material. If you don't want to answer the question, you don't have to enter the thread. You have entered it only to obfuscate ( which as Toast pointed out is your usual modus operandi when you can't actually answer a simple question such as this) Any further thoughts on why God ostensibly felt the need to have a 'son' on earth, when, being God he should have been able to manage the course of events himself?
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Post by rizdek on May 24, 2019 16:20:07 GMT
I believe Jesus' purpose was to spread the word of God. To teach. Jesus and his disciples hit the streets to spread the good word. I believe that was his purpose. Also, before Jesus, I don't believe there was a way for anyone to go to heaven. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm pretty sure Jesus' death was the only way anyone, past or present, would have a chance to go to heaven. So that's another reason God needed him. WOW! Big call. Are you suggesting that Heaven was empty until Jesus' birth around 32AD? Jesus is supposed to have said in John 14
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?"
So one could make the case that heaven did not exist before Jesus is supposed to have done his thing on earth.
This site
suggests that the gospel of John has Jesus saying that folks don't "go to heaven" when they die, but only go to heaven after Jesus returns and takes them there. But who knows what kind of crap they had Jesus saying since all this was written down decades after Jesus was supposed to have walked on earth.
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Post by yougotastewgoinbaby on May 24, 2019 17:32:32 GMT
The kid mellowed him out. Before he was a father, God was kind of short-tempered and erratic.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 24, 2019 17:38:20 GMT
WOW! Big call. Are you suggesting that Heaven was empty until Jesus' birth around 32AD? Jesus is supposed to have said in John 14
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?"
So one could make the case that heaven did not exist before Jesus is supposed to have done his thing on earth.
This site
suggests that the gospel of John has Jesus saying that folks don't "go to heaven" when they die, but only go to heaven after Jesus returns and takes them there. But who knows what kind of crap they had Jesus saying since all this was written down decades after Jesus was supposed to have walked on earth.
Humans think so much of themselves it doesn’t dawn on them that there was life in heaven before humans were a twinkle in God’s eye.
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Post by heeeeey on May 24, 2019 18:48:53 GMT
How do you think God would appear in a 3-dimensional world?
A spirit needs a body to appear in this material world.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on May 24, 2019 19:36:11 GMT
Jesus is supposed to have said in John 14
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?"
So one could make the case that heaven did not exist before Jesus is supposed to have done his thing on earth.
This site
suggests that the gospel of John has Jesus saying that folks don't "go to heaven" when they die, but only go to heaven after Jesus returns and takes them there. But who knows what kind of crap they had Jesus saying since all this was written down decades after Jesus was supposed to have walked on earth.
Humans think so much of themselves it doesn’t dawn on them that there was life in heaven before humans were a twinkle in God’s eye. It might just be that, to some sensible humans at least, speculation about what is by definition unproven and unknowable - at least enough enough to affirm anything as supposed knowledge - is just meaningless. How many angels was it on the head of a pin again?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 24, 2019 19:54:31 GMT
Humans think so much of themselves it doesn’t dawn on them that there was life in heaven before humans were a twinkle in God’s eye. It might just be that, to some sensible humans at least, speculation about what is by definition unproven and unknowable - at least enough enough to affirm anything as supposed knowledge - is just meaningless. How many angels was it on the head of a pin again? as I always state, I’m nit discussing this as if it’s a fact beyond narrative. Let’s pretend what I said is complete fiction and go from there.
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