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Post by goz on Jun 13, 2019 21:17:57 GMT
 If so, does it mean that that God has a God? etc
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Post by gadreel on Jun 13, 2019 21:38:22 GMT
it's a moot point.
God is the source. For our universe and all of our existence God is the end point (start point but you know what I mean), how God came to be is of no concern, it is information that is beyond even knowing what God is and God is already beyond our knowledge. In any case it makes no difference how God got there, God is still the source of OUR creation.
(all this written assuming you believe, if you dont believe the point is even more moot)
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Post by goz on Jun 13, 2019 21:59:57 GMT
it's a moot point. God is the source. For our universe and all of our existence God is the end point (start point but you know what I mean), how God came to be is of no concern, it is information that is beyond even knowing what God is and God is already beyond our knowledge. In any case it makes no difference how God got there, God is still the source of OUR creation. (all this written assuming you believe, if you dont believe the point is even more moot) Nice side stepping. I always like more moot points and would like more mooter points EVEN more etc It reminds me of the sign on President Truman's desk about your concept of God. 'The buck stops here'.
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Post by MCDemuth on Jun 13, 2019 22:17:42 GMT
Who is GOD's parents?That's one of several questions, that I asked as a kid, of which no one could answer in a satisfactory manner... gadreel " God is the source."... " how God came to be is of no concern" Yeah, that is basically what most people told me... However, I couldn't accept that GOD just existed and instantly knew how to create the universe and everything in it in just Six Days!... And so, I quickly distanced myself from being "religious", because I knew that much of what I was being told to "believe" in, just didn't make any sense, and that much of it had to be BS... While I will admit, that there are SOME things, that Science can NOT answer for me... And that I still try to keep an open mind that GOD & Religion may be the best explanations for THOSE things... I do remain skeptical that GOD & Religion are the ONLY answers that can fill in those blanks... And So, I try to examine all of the available evidence, and look for other possibilities, whenever I can... Ultimately though... I still can't accept that 0 + 0 = 1... And so, "Something" had to intentionally jump-start the creation our complex universe... Because it wasn't just a random event.
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Post by goz on Jun 13, 2019 23:28:19 GMT
it's a moot point.
God is the source. For our universe and all of our existence God is the end point (start point but you know what I mean), h ow God came to be is of no concern, it is information that is beyond even knowing what God is and God is already beyond our knowledge. In any case it makes no difference how God got there, God is still the source of OUR creation.(all this written assuming you believe, if you dont believe the point is even more moot) There is NO end point, there is NO start point. God, to use the term loosely, is already within and without us. It is not knowledge that will lead one to God, but knowing that WE ARE the source of our creation, therefore our own God. That is how we learn to act wisely.  Sorry, you always make me giggle with your wankiness of within without upside down all over inside out stuff! 
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jun 14, 2019 0:23:14 GMT
This is why the "something can't come from nothing!" theist argument is largely junk, it's rather self defeating. Any counterargument to "Why don't you apply that rule to your God?" ultimately comes down to "Because magic!"
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Post by goz on Jun 14, 2019 0:30:52 GMT
This is why the "something can't come from nothing!" theist argument is largely junk, it's rather self defeating. Any counterargument to "Why don't you apply that rule to your God?" ultimately comes down to "Because magic!" Yet theists like Gadreel say this ...in effect that it is 1. Unknowable 2. Unimportant ie It just IS. ...and NO, I don't know what be means. 
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Post by goz on Jun 14, 2019 3:48:55 GMT
The question is grounded in its own fallacy, akin to asking what's older than the oldest thing. The prime mover by any other name is still the prime mover. If you are correct, then why do so many people believe in this fallacy?
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Post by goz on Jun 14, 2019 4:16:14 GMT
If you are correct, then why do so many people believe in this fallacy? You tell me. Aren't you the one asking who designed the designer? I don't believe in a designer at all, so in a sense it was a rhetorical question, though for those who do believe, there should logically be and answer, don't you think? So, I guess I was asking them.
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Post by goz on Jun 14, 2019 5:11:32 GMT
I don't believe in a designer at all, so in a sense it was a rhetorical question, though for those who do believe, there should logically be and answer, don't you think? So, I guess I was asking them. Rhetorical questions don't expect answers. They make points. The point of your rhetorical question is that the prime mover is not the prime mover, and you're expecting a rebuttal. The fallacy is called a Straw Man. For those who believe (and to whom the question is directed), the prime mover is known as God, but your question refers to something else. Yes. My question asked who prime moved the prime mover!?!
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Post by goz on Jun 14, 2019 6:08:54 GMT
Yes. My question asked who prime moved the prime mover!?! The prime mover has not been prime moved. Apologies, I was mistaking him for the Mack Truck!
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Post by Winter_King on Jun 14, 2019 9:34:08 GMT
Well God was created by Man. Not the other way around.
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Post by Stammerhead on Jun 14, 2019 10:20:28 GMT
God probably has a god but doesn’t believe in him and created us because he knows nothing.
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Post by mslo79 on Jun 14, 2019 18:39:34 GMT
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Post by maya55555 on Jun 14, 2019 18:58:37 GMT
that God has a God? etc
THERE Are some theologians who teach in the Yeshiva that G-D, worded himself into being.
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Post by goz on Jun 14, 2019 20:50:01 GMT
Thankyou. That is one of the better apologetics articles I have read on the subject So if God is outside of time and made the inverse with a start date, has be made other universes? Why is he a he? Why does he create man and then all the contradictions in the Bible to make Man 'behave'? The answers are of course than God is a human construct and not the other way around.
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Post by Arlon10 on Jun 15, 2019 0:04:56 GMT
This is why the "something can't come from nothing!" theist argument is largely junk, it's rather self defeating. Any counterargument to "Why don't you apply that rule to your God?" ultimately comes down to "Because magic!" Some things might be eternal, without beginning or end. For example it might be possible for an electron to be eternal because there is no reason for it to breakdown, and it might survive from the earliest of cosmic events. Perhaps other particles could be eternal. You have a point that complicated things probably required assembly, and if so wouldn't that mean a god as a complicated thing required assembly? I have always assumed for my earliest years that supernatural phenomena are not bound by the rules of time and space that the physical world is. Examples of clairvoyance that cannot be explained by electromagnetic transmission/reception, if found, would suggest that there are things outside the bounds of physical existence.
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Post by goz on Jun 15, 2019 3:44:31 GMT
Thankyou. That is one of the better apologetics articles I have read on the subject So if God is outside of time and made the inverse with a start date, has be made other universes? Why is he a he? Why does he create man and then all the contradictions in the Bible to make Man 'behave'? The answers are of course than God is a human construct and not the other way around. I don't think you'll find very many who agree with the theory that we were created by a Mack Truck. The terms "created" and "creator" are not interchangeable, and you're still using the name "God" as a designation of the former. When the premise is flawed, the conclusion follows suit. Don't be such a bigot! There is just as much chance of us being created by a Mack Truck as a Prime Mover!
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Post by gadreel on Jun 16, 2019 21:08:57 GMT
it's a moot point. God is the source. For our universe and all of our existence God is the end point (start point but you know what I mean), how God came to be is of no concern, it is information that is beyond even knowing what God is and God is already beyond our knowledge. In any case it makes no difference how God got there, God is still the source of OUR creation. (all this written assuming you believe, if you dont believe the point is even more moot) Nice side stepping. I always like more moot points and would like more mooter points EVEN more etc It reminds me of the sign on President Truman's desk about your concept of God. 'The buck stops here'. Yeah you missed the point. It's just intellectual fuckwhoppery. At the end of the day (assuming you believe) the source of God is not important. God could well be a living creature with a finite lifespan, but in terms of our universe and how we percieve it, God is eternal. Moreover it's intellectual fuckwhoppery because there is no way to answer it. Sure it might be fun to contemplate but at the end of the day the nature of God itself is simply speculation and has no real value in terms of how god affects the known universe.
I mean posit an argument that makes the origin of God important.
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Post by gadreel on Jun 16, 2019 21:09:47 GMT
it's a moot point.
God is the source. For our universe and all of our existence God is the end point (start point but you know what I mean), h ow God came to be is of no concern, it is information that is beyond even knowing what God is and God is already beyond our knowledge. In any case it makes no difference how God got there, God is still the source of OUR creation.(all this written assuming you believe, if you dont believe the point is even more moot) There is NO end point, there is NO start point. God, to use the term loosely, is already within and without us. It is not knowledge that will lead one to God, but knowing that WE ARE the source of our creation, therefore our own God. That is how we learn to act wisely. God as the creation force is the start point of our creation. Unless you think our creation is eternal.
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