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Post by Grabthar's Hammer on Jul 3, 2019 8:32:48 GMT
I know that sounds silly. Of course they are.. that's like.. the whole point. But why?
I find myself consistently looking for ways to live a less hedonistic lifestyle. In other words.. a less "sinful" lifestyle. Most atheists don't much believe in the concept of sin so they aren't helpful, but you'd imagine a Christian might be able to give some advice. Yet I've asked a few and their first response is asking me if I've accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, and if not, would I like to? Okay, I get it. That's part of the whole thing. But what a huge commitment to make right off the bat! Especially for a person who hasn't had a consistent experience with religion. Clearly I'm trying to seek a way to live a morally healthier life which should be considered a good thing from a religious standpoint, why can't we just focus on that first? Maybe we could just table the whole "devotion to an omnipotent force" thing for later.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jul 3, 2019 9:48:40 GMT
Are you asking what you need a savior to save you from? I used to ask myself that too.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 3, 2019 10:38:38 GMT
It's only a biog commitment for people who aren't sure they want to be one.
In that case they shouldn't be.
There are few if any scriptures that indicate Christianity is for either wishy washy people or ones who don't actually want to be one.
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Post by Isapop on Jul 3, 2019 12:34:20 GMT
There are few if any scriptures that indicate Christianity is for either wishy washy people or ones who don't actually want to be one. And so what is that supposed to mean? How many scriptures indicating that Christianity is the "right" way for everyone must there be before it should be taken seriously? If there was only one, that isn't enough?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 3, 2019 14:13:17 GMT
There are few if any scriptures that indicate Christianity is for either wishy washy people or ones who don't actually want to be one. And so what is that supposed to mean? How many scriptures indicating that Christianity is the "right" way for everyone must there be before it should be taken seriously? If there was only one, that isn't enough? Christianity saying it’s the right thing to do is not he same thing as people agreeing with that. Are you thinking Christianity should support Hinduism?😐
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 3, 2019 14:37:51 GMT
I know that sounds silly. Of course they are.. that's like.. the whole point. But why?
I find myself consistently looking for ways to live a less hedonistic lifestyle. In other words.. a less "sinful" lifestyle. Most atheists don't much believe in the concept of sin so they aren't helpful, but you'd imagine a Christian might be able to give some advice. Yet I've asked a few and their first response is asking me if I've accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, and if not, would I like to? Okay, I get it. That's part of the whole thing. But what a huge commitment to make right off the bat! Especially for a person who hasn't had a consistent experience with religion. Clearly I'm trying to seek a way to live a morally healthier life which should be considered a good thing from a religious standpoint, why can't we just focus on that first? Maybe we could just table the whole "devotion to an omnipotent force" thing for later.
Try Secular Humanism... no "devotion to an omnipotent force" required. Also, Buddhism is less a religion, and more of a philosophy on how to live a better life. The Four Noble Truths and the Eight-fold path... it might appeal to you.
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Post by general313 on Jul 3, 2019 15:17:16 GMT
I know that sounds silly. Of course they are.. that's like.. the whole point. But why?
I find myself consistently looking for ways to live a less hedonistic lifestyle. In other words.. a less "sinful" lifestyle. Most atheists don't much believe in the concept of sin so they aren't helpful, but you'd imagine a Christian might be able to give some advice. Yet I've asked a few and their first response is asking me if I've accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, and if not, would I like to? Okay, I get it. That's part of the whole thing. But what a huge commitment to make right off the bat! Especially for a person who hasn't had a consistent experience with religion. Clearly I'm trying to seek a way to live a morally healthier life which should be considered a good thing from a religious standpoint, why can't we just focus on that first? Maybe we could just table the whole "devotion to an omnipotent force" thing for later.
Perhaps you should checkout Epicurus' ethics Though a Hedonist (in the ancient sense of the word, different than the modern connotation) he believed in sobriety and living simply ("the pleasant life is produced not by a string of drinking bouts and revelries, nor by the enjoyment of boys and women, nor by fish and the other items on an expensive menu, but by sober reasoning."), and felt that desiring material possessions would leave oneself unfulfilled.
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Post by Isapop on Jul 3, 2019 15:32:06 GMT
And so what is that supposed to mean? How many scriptures indicating that Christianity is the "right" way for everyone must there be before it should be taken seriously? If there was only one, that isn't enough? Are you thinking Christianity should support Hinduism?😐 That question comes from nothing I said, but my answer is "No". Good. So can we dispose of any implication that the Bible doesn't clearly teach that Christianity is for everyone (everyone who wants to avoid an adverse judgment from God, that is)?
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Post by Grabthar's Hammer on Jul 3, 2019 18:52:22 GMT
Wanting to live a more moral life and wanting to be a Christian are two separate things. Living morally might be a part of being a Christian, but being Christian is accepting Jesus as your saviour. You can live a moral life without being a Christian, but you can't be a Christian without Christ.
Yes and I totally understand that. But clearly I'm seeking something here. I'm open minded, I'm curious.. why does a lack of instantaneous faith preclude me from even being worth a conversation about the subject? It's not just when I seek advice on living a moral life, it's when I seek any kind of spiritual advice whatsoever.
For instance, I was speaking to someone this morning in a religious chatroom. I expressed my curiosities and asked for advice and once again it was "Do you accept Christ as your lord and savior?" and I said that I hadn't. She explained that if I'm not willing to do that at this moment then there is no moving forward and that she couldn't help me. The idea that in order to receive some kind of spiritual guidance I need to snap my fingers and have an immediate faith in something I have little to no experience with just makes Christianity seem closed off. I don't think it's unreasonable to want see what it's like firsthand and express interest in someone showing you why it's so important to them.
Christianity is a huge commitment. And someone shouldn't be telling you when and in what way your road to faith should begin. Why not take the opportunity to lead someone to Christ instead of expecting their immediate devotion?
EDIT: Plus, from what I've read, Jesus didn't shun people from his teachings because they didn't immediately devote themselves to him. In fact, doing so seems to be the exact opposite of what Jesus would do. So if Christianity is about accepting Christ... shouldn't they lead by his example? It seems like if someone was curious about Christianity that Jesus would be delighted to share his knowledge and experience with them without the ultimatum of complete devotion.
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Post by Grabthar's Hammer on Jul 3, 2019 19:03:23 GMT
It's only a biog commitment for people who aren't sure they want to be one. In that case they shouldn't be. There are few if any scriptures that indicate Christianity is for either wishy washy people or ones who don't actually want to be one.
Well that doesn't make sense. Most religious people I know grew up in a religious household or were introduced to the concept at a young age. I however, was not. It's not that I'm "wishy washy" or "don't want to be one". It's that I have no experience with it. And I don't think you should have to have an immediate devotion to Jesus just to get to know religion and see if it's something you could give yourself over to.
If the case is that "people who aren't sure they want to be Christian shouldn't even try", then that's leaving a huge group of people behind simply because they weren't raised a certain way. It could be for various reasons that a person isn't sure, including anti-religious family influences. Surely they shouldn't be excluded just because they aren't sure about religion due to no fault of their own. Isn't the fact that they are curious a huge step in the "right" direction?
Shouldn't religious curiosity be a positive thing?
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Post by Grabthar's Hammer on Jul 3, 2019 19:06:34 GMT
I know that sounds silly. Of course they are.. that's like.. the whole point. But why?
I find myself consistently looking for ways to live a less hedonistic lifestyle. In other words.. a less "sinful" lifestyle. Most atheists don't much believe in the concept of sin so they aren't helpful, but you'd imagine a Christian might be able to give some advice. Yet I've asked a few and their first response is asking me if I've accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, and if not, would I like to? Okay, I get it. That's part of the whole thing. But what a huge commitment to make right off the bat! Especially for a person who hasn't had a consistent experience with religion. Clearly I'm trying to seek a way to live a morally healthier life which should be considered a good thing from a religious standpoint, why can't we just focus on that first? Maybe we could just table the whole "devotion to an omnipotent force" thing for later.
Try Secular Humanism... no "devotion to an omnipotent force" required. Also, Buddhism is less a religion, and more of a philosophy on how to live a better life. The Four Noble Truths and the Eight-fold path... it might appeal to you. Humanism sounds like a fascinating study. I'll be sure to do some research on that. Thank you for the suggestion!
I do find myself interested in Buddhism but as much research as I can do I'm much more inclined to hear personal experiences from someone who practices. I don't meet many Buddhists, unfortunately.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 3, 2019 19:22:33 GMT
It's only a biog commitment for people who aren't sure they want to be one. In that case they shouldn't be. There are few if any scriptures that indicate Christianity is for either wishy washy people or ones who don't actually want to be one.
Well that doesn't make sense. Most religious people I know grew up in a religious household or were introduced to the concept at a young age. I however, was not. It's not that I'm "wishy washy" or "don't want to be one". It's that I have no experience with it. And I don't think you should have to have an immediate devotion to Jesus just to get to know religion and see if it's something you could give yourself over to.
If the case is that "people who aren't sure they want to be Christian shouldn't even try", then that's leaving a huge group of people behind simply because they weren't raised a certain way. It could be for various reasons that a person isn't sure, including anti-religious family influences. Surely they shouldn't be excluded just because they aren't sure about religion due to no fault of their own. Isn't the fact that they are curious a huge step in the "right" direction?
Shouldn't religious curiosity be a positive thing?
Growing up in a religious household means nothing if you don’t want to be Christian. They aren’t forced to stay and many don’t. Further I am in no way saying that ignorant people should avoid it but you should just go ahead and dig deep into and then determine what you want. Not knowing is not exactly the same as not being sure. You learn stuff in order to be sure about your stance.
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Post by thefleetsin on Jul 3, 2019 19:23:45 GMT
there is no i in love
tenderness folded into blankets of well-cured sentiments surrounding monumental hearts.
polished by the parts we lay open exposed to stop signs and dips in the road as our tails rise a split second of gravity feeling jealous for lack of need.
we breathe.
sjw 07/03/19 inspired at this very moment in time by my rico. a true light of the world.
from the 'beauty series' of poems
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Post by Grabthar's Hammer on Jul 3, 2019 19:34:48 GMT
Well that doesn't make sense. Most religious people I know grew up in a religious household or were introduced to the concept at a young age. I however, was not. It's not that I'm "wishy washy" or "don't want to be one". It's that I have no experience with it. And I don't think you should have to have an immediate devotion to Jesus just to get to know religion and see if it's something you could give yourself over to.
If the case is that "people who aren't sure they want to be Christian shouldn't even try", then that's leaving a huge group of people behind simply because they weren't raised a certain way. It could be for various reasons that a person isn't sure, including anti-religious family influences. Surely they shouldn't be excluded just because they aren't sure about religion due to no fault of their own. Isn't the fact that they are curious a huge step in the "right" direction?
Shouldn't religious curiosity be a positive thing?
Growing up in a religious household means nothing if you don’t want to be Christians. They aren’t forced to stay and many don’t. Further I am in no way saying that ignorant people should avoid it but you should just go ahead and dig deep into and then determine what you want. Not know is not exactly the same as not being sure. You learn stuff in order to be sure about your stance. That's not entirely true. From my experience, especially in a strong religious household, it's almost impossible to denounce religion without being disowned or being considered a dishonor to the family. Every Christian I know has a deeply religious family. My experiences with Mormonism seems to be the opposite though. Anybody I know from a younger generation who grew up in a Mormon household abandoned it immediately when given the chance.
Ignorant people?
Yes I've done some research on my own but I'm the kind of person who benefits from seeing or learning other's personal experiences. Sort of like on the job training. Sure, I could read the manual, but I'm going to get more out of firsthand experience and the wisdom of another.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 3, 2019 19:55:35 GMT
Growing up in a religious household means nothing if you don’t want to be Christians. They aren’t forced to stay and many don’t. Further I am in no way saying that ignorant people should avoid it but you should just go ahead and dig deep into and then determine what you want. Not know is not exactly the same as not being sure. You learn stuff in order to be sure about your stance. That's not entirely true. From my experience, especially in a strong religious household, it's almost impossible to denounce religion without being disowned or being considered a dishonor to the family. Every Christian I know has a deeply religious family. My experiences with Mormonism seems to be the opposite though. Anybody I know from a younger generation who grew up in a Mormon household abandoned it immediately when given the chance.
Ignorant people?
Yes I've done some research on my own but I'm the kind of person who benefits from seeing or learning other's personal experiences. Sort of like on the job training. Sure, I could read the manual, but I'm going to get more out of firsthand experience and the wisdom of another.
I disagree. I don’t believe anyone stays in a religion they don’t want to be in. What they may do is hang around that religion because if family but that is not indoctrination. That is fellowship and community and is no different than stay in the same town you grew up in. Of course a simpler answer is the religion one grew up with is the one that works although I rarely see people going to the same church as adults that their parents go to. Belief cannot be forced, only accepted at various levels. The notion of indoctrination comes from people that feel heroic for “escaping” their parents religion.
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Post by goz on Jul 4, 2019 0:05:04 GMT
You don't need religion.
Think about what your moral values are and the kind of issues that you want to reflect them, and then make sure you live your life according to your own truth.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 4, 2019 1:26:25 GMT
Try Secular Humanism... no "devotion to an omnipotent force" required. Also, Buddhism is less a religion, and more of a philosophy on how to live a better life. The Four Noble Truths and the Eight-fold path... it might appeal to you. Humanism sounds like a fascinating study. I'll be sure to do some research on that. Thank you for the suggestion!
I do find myself interested in Buddhism but as much research as I can do I'm much more inclined to hear personal experiences from someone who practices. I don't meet many Buddhists, unfortunately.
Have you checked for a Buddhist Temple in your area? Until I went online and looked, I had no idea there were two within a 50 mile radius (I live in a rural area outside of a major metropolitan area). And, just a few days ago, I was reading the small town newspaper, and found that there are practicing Hindus in the next town, and again, in the Metro area, a Hindu Temple. Who knew? But, as others here have said, you can lead a perfectly moral life without having to pledge allegiance to any specific religion. It just requires thought, introspection, and how you would want to be treated, then treat others the same way. The good old golden rule, variations of which are found in the writings of every major religion. Too bad more of them don't follow it.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jul 4, 2019 9:26:16 GMT
Are you asking what you need a savior to save you from? I used to ask myself that too. You do need to be saved from yourself erj, but I doubt Jesus would even bother with you. Don't talk to me, TC. Talk to the one who started the thread, and I'll talk to him. Let him decide what he wants to do.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jul 4, 2019 9:36:52 GMT
Don't talk to me, TC. Talk to the one who started the thread, and I'll talk to him. Let him decide what he wants to do. Who is him? Some sky fairy who by all accounts, has also had his teaching distorted by religious loons. He ain't gonna save ya buddy boy! Cold hard fact. Him is the one who started the thread, queer. Go back and read what I wrote again, and try to figure it out.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jul 4, 2019 9:42:49 GMT
Him is the one who started the thread, queer. Go back and read what I wrote again, and try to figure it out. I'd say you are the one that needs to get it figured out. Yes, you'd say many things that a disgusting gay boy would say, but it doesn't require anyone to take you seriously.
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