|
Post by rizdek on Jul 3, 2019 15:32:29 GMT
A relative of mine who is very much a fundamental Christian recently had a stroke...a serious one. He was taken to the local hospital in a timely manner and they immediately air-lifted him to a hospital that had the equipment/technological know-how to deal with stroke victims. Because of quick action using a device that goes through arteries and up into the brain and actually vacuums the clot into a tiny mesh net, he survived and is apparently NOT much debilitated by what could have killed him or left him seriously debilitated. He talks clearly and apparently will be fully mobile. I can understand some gratitude and even thanking God. But now he goes on and on about how good it was HE was spared even mentioning the many others who don't recover from such medical emergencies. Doesn't it even dawn on him how this sounds?
I realize he's always trying to say things to me that he thinks might convince me to become a God-believing Christian again. And he thinks by emphasizing how God performs miracles for him that it might convince me. Little does he know, apparently, that the more times he claims God shows him favoritism as opposed to the myriad of other people who suffer horribly on a daily basis, the more he drives me away from his form of God belief. Even if I was somehow convinced that these happy coincidences he enjoys were actually miracles wrought by a god, I'd have to wonder why this god would be so quirky in who he helps vs who he allows "nature to take its course" or lets them "suffer the consequences of their free will choices."
A word of advice to theists.
DON'T USE WHAT LOOKS FOR ALL THE WORLD LIKE GOD SHOWING FAVORITISM TO CONVINCE ATHEISTS TO BELIEVE IN AND LOVE GOD.
|
|
|
Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 3, 2019 15:53:44 GMT
A relative of mine who is very much a fundamental Christian recently had a stroke...a serious one. He was taken to the local hospital in a timely manner and they immediately air-lifted him to a hospital that had the equipment/technological know-how to deal with stroke victims. Because of quick action using a device that goes through arteries and up into the brain and actually vacuums the clot into a tiny mesh net, he survived and is apparently NOT much debilitated by what could have killed him or left him seriously debilitated. He talks clearly and apparently will be fully mobile. I can understand some gratitude and even thanking God. But now he goes on and on about how good it was HE was spared even mentioning the many others who don't recover from such medical emergencies. Doesn't it even dawn on him how this sounds?
I realize he's always trying to say things to me that he thinks might convince me to become a God-believing Christian again. And he thinks by emphasizing how God performs miracles for him that it might convince me. Little does he know, apparently, that the more times he claims God shows him favoritism as opposed to the myriad of other people who suffer horribly on a daily basis, the more he drives me away from his form of God belief. Even if I was somehow convinced that these happy coincidences he enjoys were actually miracles wrought by a god, I'd have to wonder why this god would be so quirky in who he helps vs who he allows "nature to take its course" or lets them "suffer the consequences of their free will choices."
A word of advice to theists.
DON'T USE WHAT LOOKS FOR ALL THE WORLD LIKE GOD SHOWING FAVORITISM TO CONVINCE ATHEISTS TO BELIEVE IN AND LOVE GOD.
I am a 30 year survivor of the same cancer that killed so many of my card-carrying Christian relatives before me. I am still here because of advances in medical science. They did way more praying. I did way more science.
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 3, 2019 15:56:45 GMT
God does show favor to his followers it just has nothing to do with having a stroke and surviving it.
|
|
|
Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 3, 2019 16:27:17 GMT
One would think that a truly compassionate omnipotent god would be more egalitarian than show any kind of favoritism.
|
|
|
Post by Isapop on Jul 3, 2019 17:25:32 GMT
Your relative can believe what he wants. I don't see any reason why that should bother you. It's not about favoritism anyway. It's about God's plan for him. It just wasn't his day to die. If we die on the day that God has planned for us to die, and not beforehand, is there any point to wearing seat belts?
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 3, 2019 17:47:40 GMT
One would think that a truly compassionate omnipotent god would be more egalitarian than show any kind of favoritism. Parents show favor to their kids. Employers show favor to their staff Countries show favor to their citizens. All of that is the most natural expectation regardless of power. In short there is no reason for God to love you more than someone who loves him back unless he is behaving weirdly. Even then, he gives godless people such as yourself the opportunity to worship him. It’s not his fault you say no.
|
|
|
Post by thefleetsin on Jul 3, 2019 17:47:52 GMT
but but but but the baby jesus forewarned of the coming medical technologies between alternating on mary's boobs.
doesn't anyone read the bible any more? geeesh.
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 3, 2019 18:14:07 GMT
God does show favor to his followers You forget the words "I have faith that" at the start of this sentence. Or, if you really know this to be true, then let us see how one can separate the largesse of one assumed god from another - or from just the way things would have worked out anyway. Since I have been assured by believers during moments of fervent proselytizing that your god's love is 'unconditional', you can see how your comments here might sound .. odd. But perhaps they're wrong and God really does love those who love him the most more than others. It does however make Him seem a little selfish, let alone dependent on getting affection from His creation to feel pleased. Should one always fret about what others think before doing what is right? And what are we to assume is the fate of those who do not yet (children) love Him or cannot ever really (the severely mentally handicapped), say? Unfortunately He does not offer the sceptical the means to make an informed decision, when the verification of much that is claimed about the deliberate supernatural is impossible or requires a high level of credulity. He really needs to fix that. After all clear and unambiguous demonstrations of Himself were something quite common in OT days - allegedly.
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 3, 2019 18:22:09 GMT
God does show favor to his followers You forget the words "I have faith that" at the start of this sentence. Or, if you really know this to be true, then let us see how one can separate the largesse of one assumed god from another - or from just the way things would have worked out anyway. Since I have been assured by believers during moments of fervent proselytizing that your god's love is 'unconditional', you can see how your comments here might sound .. odd. But perhaps they're wrong and God really does love those who love him the most more than others. It does however make Him seem a little selfish, let alone dependent on getting affection from His creation to feel pleased. Should one always fret about what others think before doing what is right? And what are we to assume is the fate of those who do not yet (children) love Him or cannot ever (the mentally handicapped), say? Unfortunately He does not offer the sceptical the means to make an informed decision, when the verification of much that is claimed about the deliberate supernatural is impossible. He really needs to fix that. After all clear and unambiguous demonstrations of Himself were something quite common in OT days - allegedly. God’s love is unconditional in that all are welcome to receive it. Rejecting it is a choice you have too. It’s not his job to open your mind as you have the exact same tools everyone else has to determine what you want. It is entirely your right to be skeptical and especially if you gain a measure of happiness from that skepticism. That sounds like a good life to me.
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 3, 2019 18:31:37 GMT
God’s love is unconditional in that all are welcome to receive it. Rejecting it is a choice you have too. OK; I'll accept that Christians (who might be best expected to know) think that the offer of God's love is unconditional, just as I have been assured, but does this unconditionality also apply to the strength of His love? (Your previous words that "there is no reason for God to love you more than someone who loves him back unless he is behaving weirdly" might be taken to read that, away from this circumstance, God can love some more than others, or would if He wanted. Unless you meant the entirely negative. But your reply still does not address the question of those who cannot know god or love him for reasons beyond their control. (Related to this is the question of whether unbaptised early-death infants go to hell or not) Or why the most powerful and wise force in creation would worry about what people think of it before doing the right thing. Why would an entity who has it all crave affection? Does He think it would make Him more complete? It is reasonable though to expect to be able to make an informed decision. I would not buy a car without checking the seller's authority, let alone adopt a whole intellectual outlook. It is true that we all share the same tools. Unfortunately some do not use that of reason as well as they ought, while this approach of your god has left two thirds of the world not following Him even after several millennia. Maybe He needs a Plan B. Like showing Himself unambiguously. For if He really knows all things then He knows exactly would persuade (not coerce) me and so many others. So where is He? I thought He wanted more love? Thank you.
|
|
|
Post by general313 on Jul 3, 2019 18:44:29 GMT
Your relative can believe what he wants. I don't see any reason why that should bother you. It's not about favoritism anyway. It's about God's plan for him. It just wasn't his day to die. If we die on the day that God has planned for us to die, and not beforehand, is there any point to wearing seat belts? The Christian Scientists believe that wearing a seat belt shows a lack of faith. Actually I made that up, but that would be consistent with their views on medical care.
|
|
|
Post by thefleetsin on Jul 3, 2019 18:54:13 GMT
can't make this writ up
four chores and seven dears ago our fathers brought forth on this planet so many convoluted excuses for what is now the latest definition of freedom that even what should be labeled child abuses is being passed off as the latest in manifest destiny excuses for what everyone can see is slightly off-skewer still massive amounts of fireworks wont hide mountain ranges of manure.
sjw 07/03/19 inspired at this very moment in time as the portal squeals outside the endangered deals.
from the 'blitzkrieg series' of poems
|
|
|
Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Jul 3, 2019 22:10:45 GMT
I always feel sorry for the people who actually do save the patient but don't get any actual thanks.
I kinda wish emergency calls asked them "Are you a True Believer? A really devout Christian?" and if they say "yes" then they tell them that they won't bother sending an EMT team and they won't bother prepping a medical team at the hospital, because apparently as far as the patient's concerned none of those people have anything to do with their recovery and it's all down to God. So they'll let them deal with people who actually want their help and they'll let God deal with this call.
|
|
|
Post by mslo79 on Jul 6, 2019 11:08:38 GMT
Your relative can believe what he wants. I don't see any reason why that should bother you. It's not about favoritism anyway. It's about God's plan for him. It just wasn't his day to die. If we die on the day that God has planned for us to die, and not beforehand, is there any point to wearing seat belts?
Well obviously one does not want to be reckless and take unnecessary risks as we are not invincible. so wearing a seat belt is a good idea.
|
|
|
Post by Isapop on Jul 6, 2019 16:23:52 GMT
If we die on the day that God has planned for us to die, and not beforehand, is there any point to wearing seat belts?
Well obviously one does not want to be reckless and take unnecessary risks as we are not invincible. so wearing a seat belt is a good idea. And that's perfectly sensible as long as one doesn't believe that one's date of death has already been fixed and determined by God.
|
|
|
Post by politicidal on Jul 6, 2019 17:18:38 GMT
. If that's the way he feels about it, it's his choice.
|
|
|
Post by drystyx on Jul 7, 2019 14:41:32 GMT
Not self centered, just illogical, unless he doesn't say the same about others who get the breaks.
The fundamentalist who believes God is in full control has this problem with logic. The dualist, Gnostic Christians don't, because to us, God works from outside the realm of Satan, which we are temporarily trapped in.
For the Gnostic or dualist, the Universe of God is a vast expanse, and our physical Universe is like a tiny box that the Devil trapped beings in. It may even be the Devil who created us, since we are virtually born of flesh, of the devil. And God works from outside that tiny box to deliver us. The day he finally gets to destroy that box is a day of Revelation.
In such a case, God has limited access to the box, which is under the Devil's rule. Imagine, if you will, a time long ago, when the Devil tempted spirits to play a game over which the Devil was the referee, the umpire, and the commissioner, and everything, making his own rules. We were deceived to go into that box, not knowing the outcome. Thankfully, even under the rules of the Devil, the son of God entered and suffered under those rules to free us.
So there are little spots where good can work, but those spots keep dwindling with every bit of power people give to the demonic forces. Not hard to imagine when one looks right here on IMDB at the hate mongering. Take, for instance, the IMDB top 250, which isn't nearly as hate mongering as it was 20 years ago, but still full of worship for hate and divisiveness. Take the many threads which praise demonic forces, the "my sadist can out-sadist your sadist" threads, which is pure food for demonic forces and nothing else.
Given that, it's incredible that God can save one life in a hundred, with all the hate that is being fed.
But, for the fundamentalist, who thinks the good God is omnipotent in this box and kills 99 to save 1, there is undeniably a lack of logic, a failure in Mathematics. I don't think it's self centered. It is poor Math and poor logic.
|
|
|
Post by rizdek on Jul 7, 2019 21:30:15 GMT
Your relative can believe what he wants. I don't see any reason why that should bother you. It's not about favoritism anyway. It's about God's plan for him. It just wasn't his day to die. It doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I feel rather vindicated by it.
But I see it as contrary to this relative's goal of trying to get me to believe in God again...which this person continually does. He is forever claiming each and every happy coincidence in his life is God's doings. But I see others who end up in a similar situation are not protected/healed despite faithfully worshiping the same God with what appears to be equal zeal. And, if God's plan is to help heal one person and not others in a similar situation, then the plan...God's plan...would seem to have "favoritism" built in to it, don't you think?
|
|
|
Post by rizdek on Jul 7, 2019 23:03:38 GMT
God does show favor to his followers it just has nothing to do with having a stroke and surviving it. What does it have to do with?
|
|
|
Post by Catman on Jul 7, 2019 23:25:03 GMT
This reminds Catman of a prayer he overheard in the surgery prep area. The guy praying asked God to guide the surgeon's hands then said: "And if it be your will, we ask you to heal our sister."
|
|