|
Post by dazz on Sept 9, 2019 4:38:52 GMT
It’s a weird kind of phenomenon I’ve noticed about the current fans. I remember back in the 2001-2008 period the serious fan were turned off by the goofy gimmicks and comedy and the sports entertainment aspect and that is why ROH was marketed for the fan that didn’t want all the crap. Fast forward to now and the next generation of fans want the goofy and silly crap and they love the sports entertainment and just want to laugh like they’re watching some kind of sitcom. The kind of stuff that would get booed out of an ROH building in its early days. Probably in part due to the fact that they weren’t watching wrestling when it was presented in a serious way and they grew up with the silliness of the wwe and the backstage comedy skits they watched on tv so that’s what they’re accustomed to. I think it's more just indy fans will love whatever is hot or what Meltzer is sucking the cock of at the moment, the bigger fandom to this stuff is a fad, much like the fandom for 90% of the AE skits, not to say this stuff cant get over at all, if done at a high level almost anything can get over, Undertaker's career is littered with goofy shit that would kill 9/10 guys careers maybe 19/20 guys, but Taker was so good he could walk through a sewer system and come out smelling like roses most of the time.
Comedy was fine back in the 00's in ROH when it was where it belonged, the lower to mid card, it got over and people dug it, but no one brought it as top level stuff, but in an opening 4 way or scramble match, then sure fuck it Delirious Ebbessan can do slow mo spots, but then that also had the added bonus of the likes of Adam Pearce or some other serious performer looking at them like WTF is this shit? then comes in and murders them or they suddenly stop goofing off and fought back for real, but it made sense because character like that were mentally challenged comedy characters, they were the top guys in the company making world title matches out to be a joke with invisible hand grenade spots.
Honestly I think a lot of this is on Meltzer for how hard and fast he drops to his knee's to blow the likes of the Bucks & Omega, and those fuck knuckles shitting on wrestling so they can sell an extra $25 a night in merch, it's also down to imo guys like Steen & Generico who preached this bullshit "I don't owe the promoter anything he isn't paying my bills, I gotta do what I gotta do to sell shirts" because you know giving them a venue to perform, a place to sell their shit and actually you know PAYING them to be on the show doesn't matter, fuck doing whats best for the show do what is best for you so you can sell an extra fucking T-shirt, listen to guys who were in ROH back in 2003-06' they talk about guys respecting each other and the show, wanting to do their best but not take away from the show.
Basically in 2003-06 the guys like Kenny, The Bucks, Joey Ryan would have almost 300lbs of pissed off samoan fury trying to kill them if they did their bullshit on a show with him, that's the bullshit Teddy Hart did and he got blackballed from pretty much every major company worth a shit, somehow the next crop of indy guys came up thinking that's the way to behave, they are a bunmch of entitled whiny cunts who cannot get over properly so they have to do bullshit and whine about things to get over on social media...fuck those guys.
|
|
|
Post by emeralderosion98 on Sept 15, 2019 22:57:44 GMT
That's why he was cool. The man just needs to sick back and home and enjoy instead of having a cardiac attack over some dude doing dumb stuff in the ring. or.., maybe he just understands wrestling and doesn’t like seeing things that are bad for wrestling or makes a mockery of it for no other reason but to get a cheap laugh for 20 seconds out of the audience. If I hear one more time about how wrestling is “fun and entertainment and it’s supposed to make people smile” I am going to throw up. He has a podcast. He expresses his opinions which is what a podcast is for. You ever heard that saying:" If you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to watch it", this is a case where Cornette could be mild in response to things he dont like. Instead, he goes 100 and decides to bash his own peers to the point where people do things in spite to him. He just sued a guy for making a shirt mocking him, sure he says he sued for charity reasons. But he antagonizes people when its complete unnecessary. Except, Cornette has gone out of his way to attack disabled people, women wrestlers and anyone who doesn't agree with him. Its either you are with Cornette stans on his old school ideology or you are against him and hated. The man sure does spew alot of hateful remarks over an artform that can used to entertain people in many ways. It just doesnt have to be Cornette's way. As you said earlier, you agree with Cornette's ideology. Which is archaic in this day and age.
|
|
|
Post by emeralderosion98 on Sept 15, 2019 23:01:13 GMT
It’s a weird kind of phenomenon I’ve noticed about the current fans. I remember back in the 2001-2008 period the serious fan were turned off by the goofy gimmicks and comedy and the sports entertainment aspect and that is why ROH was marketed for the fan that didn’t want all the crap. Fast forward to now and the next generation of fans want the goofy and silly crap and they love the sports entertainment and just want to laugh like they’re watching some kind of sitcom. The kind of stuff that would get booed out of an ROH building in its early days. Probably in part due to the fact that they weren’t watching wrestling when it was presented in a serious way and they grew up with the silliness of the wwe and the backstage comedy skits they watched on tv so that’s what they’re accustomed to. I think it's more just indy fans will love whatever is hot or what Meltzer is sucking the cock of at the moment, the bigger fandom to this stuff is a fad, much like the fandom for 90% of the AE skits, not to say this stuff cant get over at all, if done at a high level almost anything can get over, Undertaker's career is littered with goofy shit that would kill 9/10 guys careers maybe 19/20 guys, but Taker was so good he could walk through a sewer system and come out smelling like roses most of the time.
Comedy was fine back in the 00's in ROH when it was where it belonged, the lower to mid card, it got over and people dug it, but no one brought it as top level stuff, but in an opening 4 way or scramble match, then sure fuck it Delirious Ebbessan can do slow mo spots, but then that also had the added bonus of the likes of Adam Pearce or some other serious performer looking at them like WTF is this shit? then comes in and murders them or they suddenly stop goofing off and fought back for real, but it made sense because character like that were mentally challenged comedy characters, they were the top guys in the company making world title matches out to be a joke with invisible hand grenade spots.
Honestly I think a lot of this is on Meltzer for how hard and fast he drops to his knee's to blow the likes of the Bucks & Omega, and those fuck knuckles shitting on wrestling so they can sell an extra $25 a night in merch, it's also down to imo guys like Steen & Generico who preached this bullshit "I don't owe the promoter anything he isn't paying my bills, I gotta do what I gotta do to sell shirts" because you know giving them a venue to perform, a place to sell their shit and actually you know PAYING them to be on the show doesn't matter, fuck doing whats best for the show do what is best for you so you can sell an extra fucking T-shirt, listen to guys who were in ROH back in 2003-06' they talk about guys respecting each other and the show, wanting to do their best but not take away from the show.
Basically in 2003-06 the guys like Kenny, The Bucks, Joey Ryan would have almost 300lbs of pissed off samoan fury trying to kill them if they did their bullshit on a show with him, that's the bullshit Teddy Hart did and he got blackballed from pretty much every major company worth a shit, somehow the next crop of indy guys came up thinking that's the way to behave, they are a bunmch of entitled whiny cunts who cannot get over properly so they have to do bullshit and whine about things to get over on social media...fuck those guys.
Well, Hart got blackballed for other dumb shit he did and no shows. Sure next crop of guys are doing dumb stuff, but you know what thats life. Thats how wrestling has been, evolutionary to say the least. You don't have to do what cornette likes. Yes, dude hates garbage wrestling, its been around since 80s. Strange enough, never really hear Cornette talk about FMW was horrible and its wrestlers. Or Onita Pro or W*ING being a horrible federation. Sure as hell never goes after legends like Terry Funk for garbage wrestling.
|
|
|
Post by emeralderosion98 on Sept 16, 2019 1:35:48 GMT
A man of his time and place. However he's living in the past and his views on modern wrestling are as relevant as Blockbusters would be on movie viewing in 2019. Agreed. Here is the problem with Cornette and Dazz thought process - You know the real reason you guys hate indy wrestling today? Because new generation of wrestling fans actually like it. People actually attended shows to see Kenny Omega fight a kid or doll. Or Cassidy dude with shades getting cheers for being a lack of energy/lazy bum, or man vs woman match. Now its not my cup of tea, but hell if people like it. They like that stuff... The reason why Cornette chimes in with vitriol? Because people are zero'd in on those acts and praise them and it draws attention. Cornette loves to talk shit and drag down anyone who he deems weak but yet fans seem applaud and praise that weak subjects work.
|
|
|
Post by dazz on Sept 16, 2019 2:24:08 GMT
I think it's more just indy fans will love whatever is hot or what Meltzer is sucking the cock of at the moment, the bigger fandom to this stuff is a fad, much like the fandom for 90% of the AE skits, not to say this stuff cant get over at all, if done at a high level almost anything can get over, Undertaker's career is littered with goofy shit that would kill 9/10 guys careers maybe 19/20 guys, but Taker was so good he could walk through a sewer system and come out smelling like roses most of the time.
Comedy was fine back in the 00's in ROH when it was where it belonged, the lower to mid card, it got over and people dug it, but no one brought it as top level stuff, but in an opening 4 way or scramble match, then sure fuck it Delirious Ebbessan can do slow mo spots, but then that also had the added bonus of the likes of Adam Pearce or some other serious performer looking at them like WTF is this shit? then comes in and murders them or they suddenly stop goofing off and fought back for real, but it made sense because character like that were mentally challenged comedy characters, they were the top guys in the company making world title matches out to be a joke with invisible hand grenade spots.
Honestly I think a lot of this is on Meltzer for how hard and fast he drops to his knee's to blow the likes of the Bucks & Omega, and those fuck knuckles shitting on wrestling so they can sell an extra $25 a night in merch, it's also down to imo guys like Steen & Generico who preached this bullshit "I don't owe the promoter anything he isn't paying my bills, I gotta do what I gotta do to sell shirts" because you know giving them a venue to perform, a place to sell their shit and actually you know PAYING them to be on the show doesn't matter, fuck doing whats best for the show do what is best for you so you can sell an extra fucking T-shirt, listen to guys who were in ROH back in 2003-06' they talk about guys respecting each other and the show, wanting to do their best but not take away from the show.
Basically in 2003-06 the guys like Kenny, The Bucks, Joey Ryan would have almost 300lbs of pissed off samoan fury trying to kill them if they did their bullshit on a show with him, that's the bullshit Teddy Hart did and he got blackballed from pretty much every major company worth a shit, somehow the next crop of indy guys came up thinking that's the way to behave, they are a bunmch of entitled whiny cunts who cannot get over properly so they have to do bullshit and whine about things to get over on social media...fuck those guys.
Well, Hart got blackballed for other dumb shit he did and no shows. Sure next crop of guys are doing dumb stuff, but you know what thats life. Thats how wrestling has been, evolutionary to say the least. You don't have to do what cornette likes. Yes, dude hates garbage wrestling, its been around since 80s. Strange enough, never really hear Cornette talk about FMW was horrible and its wrestlers. Or Onita Pro or W*ING being a horrible federation. Sure as hell never goes after legends like Terry Funk for garbage wrestling. Then you are somewhat ignorant, he's mentioned Onita many times, that Onita saw how "hardcore" wrestling was used in Memphis with the concession stand brawl but didn't get the psychology behind it, where as the likes of Funk & Cactus did, a criticism many people have levied at Onita, that he would use a chair or garbage can to get a pop for himself because he could do it wrestling normally anymore but didn't get that by getting the pop then it meant he wouldn't get it in a minute later for the actual spot he had planned, so he just kept upping the ante.
Guys like Funk & Cactus didn't just do a powerbomb onto thumbtacks spots normally, they built to a thumbtack spot, they had ideas based on what their actions would get in reactions and what simple things could get even better ones, such as Cactus in his explosion match with Funk knew ok after the explosion that would get a pop, but then when he pinned Funk and Funk kicked out on 2 one last time that would get an insane pop for the legend who wouldn't quit, that pop would be the peak of the match and so he would then do a simple piledriver and pin Funk afterwards, except Terry got hurt I think so Cactus just had to cover him, they used their mind for the matches beyond hey this spot would get a pop, they thought about how what they did would make them look and tell a story, hence why Jim gives them credit, they did that stuff because they could and they knew how to do it with a story, which most of their emulators failed to do so, but he's brought this up many times, and says he doesn't like that they did it, but he atleast can respect them for how they did it.
Same for flippy stuff and technical stuff, if it serves no function other than it looks "cool" or will get a "pop", but the why behind the idea or the reaction isn't right he dislikes it, Cornette compliments A LOT of guys in the modern era, most just ignore this because also shits on idiots like Ryan and that lot, easy way to get Jim shitting on you is by treating the business with disrespect, one way or another, this isn't anything new he's had this mentality since the 80's, just people who did that back then were fewer and further apart, now they unfortunately make up a sizeable quota of the wrestlers, but he has always praised the likes of Joe, Daniels, AJ, Briscoes, Undisputed Era, Revival, Cody and so on and has taken a huge liking recently to MJF & Jungle Boy, but it's more popular to circulate the stuff he says about those he dislikes, also they tend to be the ones who get hung up on his comments.
|
|
|
Post by Jayman on Sept 16, 2019 16:55:30 GMT
or.., maybe he just understands wrestling and doesn’t like seeing things that are bad for wrestling or makes a mockery of it for no other reason but to get a cheap laugh for 20 seconds out of the audience. If I hear one more time about how wrestling is “fun and entertainment and it’s supposed to make people smile” I am going to throw up. He has a podcast. He expresses his opinions which is what a podcast is for. You ever heard that saying:" If you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to watch it", this is a case where Cornette could be mild in response to things he dont like. Instead, he goes 100 and decides to bash his own peers to the point where people do things in spite to him. He just sued a guy for making a shirt mocking him, sure he says he sued for charity reasons. But he antagonizes people when its complete unnecessary. Except, Cornette has gone out of his way to attack disabled people, women wrestlers and anyone who doesn't agree with him. Its either you are with Cornette stans on his old school ideology or you are against him and hated. The man sure does spew alot of hateful remarks over an artform that can used to entertain people in many ways. It just doesnt have to be Cornette's way. As you said earlier, you agree with Cornette's ideology. Which is archaic in this day and age. This is not a matter of "if you don't like it don't watch it". He sees the business being crapped on and sees people that should not be allowed in the business polluting it. ANd yes it is necessary to antagonize these dipshits because somebody has to. I don't know anything about attacks on disabled people but I did see that female wrestler's tweet and she deserved everything she got. Performance art? Seriously? this is the people that are let into this business these days. In those "archaic" days, people knew what they were doing and they didn't let anybody that can fit in a pair of tights into the business and there were 50 fulltime promotions instead of just 1. But yeah, wrestling has "evolved".
|
|
|
Post by Jayman on Sept 16, 2019 17:02:41 GMT
It’s a weird kind of phenomenon I’ve noticed about the current fans. I remember back in the 2001-2008 period the serious fan were turned off by the goofy gimmicks and comedy and the sports entertainment aspect and that is why ROH was marketed for the fan that didn’t want all the crap. Fast forward to now and the next generation of fans want the goofy and silly crap and they love the sports entertainment and just want to laugh like they’re watching some kind of sitcom. The kind of stuff that would get booed out of an ROH building in its early days. Probably in part due to the fact that they weren’t watching wrestling when it was presented in a serious way and they grew up with the silliness of the wwe and the backstage comedy skits they watched on tv so that’s what they’re accustomed to. I think it's more just indy fans will love whatever is hot or what Meltzer is sucking the cock of at the moment, the bigger fandom to this stuff is a fad, much like the fandom for 90% of the AE skits, not to say this stuff cant get over at all, if done at a high level almost anything can get over, Undertaker's career is littered with goofy shit that would kill 9/10 guys careers maybe 19/20 guys, but Taker was so good he could walk through a sewer system and come out smelling like roses most of the time.
Comedy was fine back in the 00's in ROH when it was where it belonged, the lower to mid card, it got over and people dug it, but no one brought it as top level stuff, but in an opening 4 way or scramble match, then sure fuck it Delirious Ebbessan can do slow mo spots, but then that also had the added bonus of the likes of Adam Pearce or some other serious performer looking at them like WTF is this shit? then comes in and murders them or they suddenly stop goofing off and fought back for real, but it made sense because character like that were mentally challenged comedy characters, they were the top guys in the company making world title matches out to be a joke with invisible hand grenade spots.
Honestly I think a lot of this is on Meltzer for how hard and fast he drops to his knee's to blow the likes of the Bucks & Omega, and those fuck knuckles shitting on wrestling so they can sell an extra $25 a night in merch, it's also down to imo guys like Steen & Generico who preached this bullshit "I don't owe the promoter anything he isn't paying my bills, I gotta do what I gotta do to sell shirts" because you know giving them a venue to perform, a place to sell their shit and actually you know PAYING them to be on the show doesn't matter, fuck doing whats best for the show do what is best for you so you can sell an extra fucking T-shirt, listen to guys who were in ROH back in 2003-06' they talk about guys respecting each other and the show, wanting to do their best but not take away from the show.
Basically in 2003-06 the guys like Kenny, The Bucks, Joey Ryan would have almost 300lbs of pissed off samoan fury trying to kill them if they did their bullshit on a show with him, that's the bullshit Teddy Hart did and he got blackballed from pretty much every major company worth a shit, somehow the next crop of indy guys came up thinking that's the way to behave, they are a bunmch of entitled whiny cunts who cannot get over properly so they have to do bullshit and whine about things to get over on social media...fuck those guys.
He did the slo mo spot? ugh I'm glad I stopped going to the shows before that then. I do think there is an element to the Meltzer thing. The main problem is what I've always said. When it got to the point where they started all these wrestling schools and they trained anybody that was willing to pay, it killed everything. You have guys that never did shit in wrestling and were never trained properly themselves, and they are running schools and are trainers. So what you have is an industry filled with clueless people that don't know what they are doing. People that think of it as performance art and think wrestling is supposed to be "fun and make people smile".
|
|
|
Post by emeralderosion98 on Sept 17, 2019 8:07:33 GMT
You ever heard that saying:" If you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to watch it", this is a case where Cornette could be mild in response to things he dont like. Instead, he goes 100 and decides to bash his own peers to the point where people do things in spite to him. He just sued a guy for making a shirt mocking him, sure he says he sued for charity reasons. But he antagonizes people when its complete unnecessary. Except, Cornette has gone out of his way to attack disabled people, women wrestlers and anyone who doesn't agree with him. Its either you are with Cornette stans on his old school ideology or you are against him and hated. The man sure does spew alot of hateful remarks over an artform that can used to entertain people in many ways. It just doesnt have to be Cornette's way. As you said earlier, you agree with Cornette's ideology. Which is archaic in this day and age. This is not a matter of "if you don't like it don't watch it". He sees the business being crapped on and sees people that should not be allowed in the business polluting it. ANd yes it is necessary to antagonize these dipshits because somebody has to. I don't know anything about attacks on disabled people but I did see that female wrestler's tweet and she deserved everything she got. Performance art? Seriously? this is the people that are let into this business these days. In those "archaic" days, people knew what they were doing and they didn't let anybody that can fit in a pair of tights into the business and there were 50 fulltime promotions instead of just 1. But yeah, wrestling has "evolved". I am not a fan of it, but the resurgence in interest of pro wrestling has been brought back by that weird stuff that Omega is doing, dumb stuff Joey Ryan does, Cassidy guy doing weak kicks and fighting women. The indy woman made a comment that did not even affect Cornette. Come on, Cornette goes off the deep end as if its his life on the line. Yes, he has gone after disabled people, because kid is part of the evolution of indy stuff. Archaic days worked because there was no internet to ruin things. And sorry, but they were letting scrawny 150 lb kids in trunks wrestle. Its how X-Pac or even Jerry Lynn got their starts. Scrawny kids be stars? No, but archaic days didnt even have guys who were agile or atheltic besides 2 dudes that could attract crowds. You might be right, maybe its not a "dont watch if you dont like", but guess what...plenty of options out there. Only reason Cornette targets these people because fans actually like Cassidy, Callihan, Omega, etc.
|
|
|
Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 17, 2019 13:17:01 GMT
I think it's more just indy fans will love whatever is hot or what Meltzer is sucking the cock of at the moment, the bigger fandom to this stuff is a fad, much like the fandom for 90% of the AE skits, not to say this stuff cant get over at all, if done at a high level almost anything can get over, Undertaker's career is littered with goofy shit that would kill 9/10 guys careers maybe 19/20 guys, but Taker was so good he could walk through a sewer system and come out smelling like roses most of the time.
Comedy was fine back in the 00's in ROH when it was where it belonged, the lower to mid card, it got over and people dug it, but no one brought it as top level stuff, but in an opening 4 way or scramble match, then sure fuck it Delirious Ebbessan can do slow mo spots, but then that also had the added bonus of the likes of Adam Pearce or some other serious performer looking at them like WTF is this shit? then comes in and murders them or they suddenly stop goofing off and fought back for real, but it made sense because character like that were mentally challenged comedy characters, they were the top guys in the company making world title matches out to be a joke with invisible hand grenade spots.
Honestly I think a lot of this is on Meltzer for how hard and fast he drops to his knee's to blow the likes of the Bucks & Omega, and those fuck knuckles shitting on wrestling so they can sell an extra $25 a night in merch, it's also down to imo guys like Steen & Generico who preached this bullshit "I don't owe the promoter anything he isn't paying my bills, I gotta do what I gotta do to sell shirts" because you know giving them a venue to perform, a place to sell their shit and actually you know PAYING them to be on the show doesn't matter, fuck doing whats best for the show do what is best for you so you can sell an extra fucking T-shirt, listen to guys who were in ROH back in 2003-06' they talk about guys respecting each other and the show, wanting to do their best but not take away from the show.
Basically in 2003-06 the guys like Kenny, The Bucks, Joey Ryan would have almost 300lbs of pissed off samoan fury trying to kill them if they did their bullshit on a show with him, that's the bullshit Teddy Hart did and he got blackballed from pretty much every major company worth a shit, somehow the next crop of indy guys came up thinking that's the way to behave, they are a bunmch of entitled whiny cunts who cannot get over properly so they have to do bullshit and whine about things to get over on social media...fuck those guys.
He did the slo mo spot? ugh I'm glad I stopped going to the shows before that then. I do think there is an element to the Meltzer thing. The main problem is what I've always said. When it got to the point where they started all these wrestling schools and they trained anybody that was willing to pay, it killed everything. You have guys that never did shit in wrestling and were never trained properly themselves, and they are running schools and are trainers. So what you have is an industry filled with clueless people that don't know what they are doing. People that think of it as performance art and think wrestling is supposed to be "fun and make people smile". So what is it supposed to be?
|
|
|
Post by Jayman on Sept 17, 2019 16:38:50 GMT
He did the slo mo spot? ugh I'm glad I stopped going to the shows before that then. I do think there is an element to the Meltzer thing. The main problem is what I've always said. When it got to the point where they started all these wrestling schools and they trained anybody that was willing to pay, it killed everything. You have guys that never did shit in wrestling and were never trained properly themselves, and they are running schools and are trainers. So what you have is an industry filled with clueless people that don't know what they are doing. People that think of it as performance art and think wrestling is supposed to be "fun and make people smile". So what is it supposed to be? its wrestling, it’s not the theater.
|
|
|
Post by dazz on Sept 17, 2019 17:06:11 GMT
He did the slo mo spot? ugh I'm glad I stopped going to the shows before that then. I do think there is an element to the Meltzer thing. The main problem is what I've always said. When it got to the point where they started all these wrestling schools and they trained anybody that was willing to pay, it killed everything. You have guys that never did shit in wrestling and were never trained properly themselves, and they are running schools and are trainers. So what you have is an industry filled with clueless people that don't know what they are doing. People that think of it as performance art and think wrestling is supposed to be "fun and make people smile". So what is it supposed to be? Simulated combat, hence why comedy wrestling has no place in the money drawing programmes, they are fine for mid card and lower positions because their jobs is to just be dressing on the card, if they can sell extra merch then great, but whilst yes wrestling is entertainment so is The Muppets & Game Of Thrones, would Khal Drogo raping Ms Piggy be appropriate in either show? no because that's sort of behaviour is not ok for a kids show and a muppet has no place in Game Of Thrones, now in a spoof movie could they have a scene like that? if it's R rated then sure, but that's the thing you need it in the right place, most wrestlers especially those that Cornette chews out don't know where and when they should or shouldn't do that stuff, you know like many writers of family stuff have done more adult projects, same with actors, but they know when it's appropriate to use certain tools and when not to, the so long as it entertains is invalid because entertains in what way? lots of people love The Room and Tommy Wiseau does that mean he should be hired to play the lead in the next big Oscar bait serious drama?
|
|
|
Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 17, 2019 18:18:33 GMT
So what is it supposed to be? its wrestling, it’s not the theater. Wrestling isn't theater? Someone should've told Gorgeous George that. Sorry, but all the greats have known that wrestling most definitely is theater.
|
|
|
Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 17, 2019 18:23:14 GMT
So what is it supposed to be? Simulated combat, hence why comedy wrestling has no place in the money drawing programmes, they are fine for mid card and lower positions because their jobs is to just be dressing on the card, if they can sell extra merch then great, but whilst yes wrestling is entertainment so is The Muppets & Game Of Thrones, would Khal Drogo raping Ms Piggy be appropriate in either show? no because that's sort of behaviour is not ok for a kids show and a muppet has no place in Game Of Thrones, now in a spoof movie could they have a scene like that? if it's R rated then sure, but that's the thing you need it in the right place, most wrestlers especially those that Cornette chews out don't know where and when they should or shouldn't do that stuff, you know like many writers of family stuff have done more adult projects, same with actors, but they know when it's appropriate to use certain tools and when not to, the so long as it entertains is invalid because entertains in what way? Sorry, but that's not entirely correct. Wrestling is story telling. Good versus evil. Smart vs dumb. Brawn vs speed. All true pro-wrestlers will tell you what wrestling is supposed to be about: making money. If you're doing that, then you're doing wrestling right. Kenny Omega makes money. Joey Ryan makes money. They make so much money, they've turned down the WWE. More importantly, they're making money for the companies that hire them. You may not like how they're doing it, but they're doing it. It's called the wrestling business. And don't forget: Bruno Sammartino, one of the greatest legends of all time, hated what the Attitude Era guys were doing and said that wasn't wrestling. That all that drama and theatrics had no place in professional wrestling. Worked very well for Tom Hanks. Comedy does not preclude talent, nor profits.
|
|
|
Post by Jayman on Sept 17, 2019 18:56:59 GMT
its wrestling, it’s not the theater. Wrestling isn't theater? Someone should've told Gorgeous George that. Sorry, but all the greats have known that wrestling most definitely is theater. no it is not theater. These aren’t actors and this isn’t broadway. Somebody having a gimmick doesn’t make it performance art nor does it make it theater
|
|
|
Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 17, 2019 19:21:07 GMT
Wrestling isn't theater? Someone should've told Gorgeous George that. Sorry, but all the greats have known that wrestling most definitely is theater. no it is not theater. These aren’t actors and this isn’t broadway. Somebody having a gimmick doesn’t make it performance art nor does it make it theater Yes, they are actors. Bret Hart himself has said it. WWE superstars memorize written scripts. Heck, Roman Reigns had an acting coach. They pretend to be what they aren't and feel what they don't for our entertainment. Those are actors.
They perform a scripted story, involving wild characters (some supernatural in nature), with excess melodrama culminating in staged combat in front of a live audience. Pro-wrestling is a perfect example of theater. P.S. Theater isn't limited to Broadway. So that fact that it isn't Broadway really doesn't matter.
|
|
|
Post by dazz on Sept 17, 2019 20:04:22 GMT
no it is not theater. These aren’t actors and this isn’t broadway. Somebody having a gimmick doesn’t make it performance art nor does it make it theater Yes, they are actors. Bret Hart himself has said it. WWE superstars memorize written scripts. Heck, Roman Reigns had an acting coach. They pretend to be what they aren't and feel what they don't for our entertainment. Those are actors.
They perform a scripted story, involving wild characters (some supernatural in nature), with excess melodrama culminating in staged combat in front of a live audience. Pro-wrestling is a perfect example of theater. P.S. Theater isn't limited to Broadway. So that fact that it isn't Broadway really doesn't matter. And since it became that the audience wrestling garners has shrunk considerably and has been shrinking every year for a long arse time, the average age of a wrestling fan keeps getting older because wrestling is not drawing in new lasting fans, the kids who watch it now age out, so that number remains the same whilst the people don't, those who stick around just keep getting older.
Hopefully AEW can attract a younger audience that become actual wrestling fans, Bret Hart also says a lot of rubbish at times, but I do kind of agree Jerry Jarrett used to call wrestling theatre for the lower class or something to that effect, problem is when everyone begins treating it like just another production wrestling loses something due to how odd a creature it is.
|
|
|
Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 17, 2019 21:06:48 GMT
That's exactly what happened in the early 80s before Hulkamania. It also happened in the early 90s before the nWo and Stone Cold. And it happened again in early 2000s before Cena. Sadly, it's the cycle of wrestling. A lot of fans age out. It's the stigma that it's just for children or rednecks.
Professional wrestling is most definitely an odd creature. But it is one that evolved and gained so much popularity because of its theatrics. There is no shame in calling it theater or performance art. Especially since some of the wrestlers are as larger than life personalities as someone like Lady Gaga.
|
|
|
Post by dazz on Sept 17, 2019 21:59:41 GMT
That's exactly what happened in the early 80s before Hulkamania. It also happened in the early 90s before the nWo and Stone Cold. And it happened again in early 2000s before Cena. Sadly, it's the cycle of wrestling. A lot of fans age out. It's the stigma that it's just for children or rednecks. Professional wrestling is most definitely an odd creature. But it is one that evolved and gained so much popularity because of its theatrics. There is no shame in calling it theater or performance art. Especially since some of the wrestlers are as larger than life personalities as someone like Lady Gaga. No that's the thing you mistake, wrestling as a whole is far less popular than it has ever been not just a company or a few companies, that used to be the thing with the territories, not every territory had the same fate, Memphis could be down but Knoxville could be on fire, Dallas could be on a roll but Amarillo could be doing modest business, even with the boom of the 90's and the Cena resurgence in the 00's wrestling has never been as popular as it used to be, almost every territory used to run 6/7 days a week wrestling in front of a few thousand fans on average a night sometimes doing double shots, every territory draw audiences of 10's of thousands of people every week, and there was like 20 territories in the US, so we are talking millions of tickets per week to see wrestling live, wrestling used to do 10 and 20 ratings locally, now look at it the biggest company in the world is pulling 2's and just barely at times, in the peak of the attitude era with WWE, ECW & WCW wrestling fans watching wrestling on TV was 15-17 million at most.
Wrestling does go in cycles but not like this, one of the cycles used to be how ignored by the press it was until it was so hot it couldn't be ignored, then you got resurgence of wrestling press when the product had been selling out the arenas just as well for over 6 months, the perception in the mainstream would change not really the fanbase, even when Memphis was on it's last legs and no one paid to see the shows anymore really it was still a highly popular TV show locally, even if you weren't making money people in Memphis and around the circuit knew who you were, Cornette made the point that you could pick any day pretty much from 1950-1986 and compare the live event gates then to now for all active promotions holding shows on that night and you would see a depressing disparity between the two figures.
A single wrestling company got bigger than any other before it when WWF went national then later global this is unquestionably true but the industry shrunk around it's growth, that's why AEW succeeding is so vital, why everyone hope TNA could for years, that they could be different enough to attract a larger wrestling fanbase to coexist with WWE's sports entertainment fans.
And whilst most fans as kids will age out as is the nature of most things we enjoy as youths the thing is the average wrestling fan age hasn't been going up slowly but steadily, it's literally been going up with how far removed from the AE we get, like in 2002 it was 39 in 2018 it was 55 or something like that, the new fans wrestling is getting don't exceed the number of older fans dying off or younger than the average age fans giving up on the industry, which is a depressing thought to me.
Us calling it theatre or performance art isn't the issue it's when the performers treat it as such, because of how odd wrestling is, wrestling cannot get away with stuff other forms of entertainment can, you know GOT had characters who people liked raping and murdering people without remorse and quite graphically at times, imagine wrestling doing that, imagine WWE, TNA, ROH, NJPW even AEW now doing a rape angle, people would lose their mind and it would be a massive issue, people want to believe it, that's why when characters take a step too far people react so badly, and it's why the wink and the nods by the performers and acknowledgement of how bullshit it all is ruins things, which shouldn't be too hard to figure out for the performers but for some it is.
|
|
|
Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 17, 2019 22:35:02 GMT
That's exactly what happened in the early 80s before Hulkamania. It also happened in the early 90s before the nWo and Stone Cold. And it happened again in early 2000s before Cena. Sadly, it's the cycle of wrestling. A lot of fans age out. It's the stigma that it's just for children or rednecks. Professional wrestling is most definitely an odd creature. But it is one that evolved and gained so much popularity because of its theatrics. There is no shame in calling it theater or performance art. Especially since some of the wrestlers are as larger than life personalities as someone like Lady Gaga. No that's the thing you mistake, wrestling as a whole is far less popular than it has ever been not just a company or a few companies, that used to be the thing with the territories, not every territory had the same fate, Memphis could be down but Knoxville could be on fire, Dallas could be on a roll but Amarillo could be doing modest business, even with the boom of the 90's and the Cena resurgence in the 00's wrestling has never been as popular as it used to be, almost every territory used to run 6/7 days a week wrestling in front of a few thousand fans on average a night sometimes doing double shots, every territory draw audiences of 10's of thousands of people every week, and there was like 20 territories in the US, so we are talking millions of tickets per week to see wrestling live, wrestling used to do 10 and 20 ratings locally, now look at it the biggest company in the world is pulling 2's and just barely at times, in the peak of the attitude era with WWE, ECW & WCW wrestling fans watching wrestling on TV was 15-17 million at most.
Wrestling does go in cycles but not like this, one of the cycles used to be how ignored by the press it was until it was so hot it couldn't be ignored, then you got resurgence of wrestling press when the product had been selling out the arenas just as well for over 6 months, the perception in the mainstream would change not really the fanbase, even when Memphis was on it's last legs and no one paid to see the shows anymore really it was still a highly popular TV show locally, even if you weren't making money people in Memphis and around the circuit knew who you were, Cornette made the point that you could pick any day pretty much from 1950-1986 and compare the live event gates then to now for all active promotions holding shows on that night and you would see a depressing disparity between the two figures.
A single wrestling company got bigger than any other before it when WWF went national then later global this is unquestionably true but the industry shrunk around it's growth, that's why AEW succeeding is so vital, why everyone hope TNA could for years, that they could be different enough to attract a larger wrestling fanbase to coexist with WWE's sports entertainment fans.
And whilst most fans as kids will age out as is the nature of most things we enjoy as youths the thing is the average wrestling fan age hasn't been going up slowly but steadily, it's literally been going up with how far removed from the AE we get, like in 2002 it was 39 in 2018 it was 55 or something like that, the new fans wrestling is getting don't exceed the number of older fans dying off or younger than the average age fans giving up on the industry, which is a depressing thought to me.
That's just not true about wrestling as a whole not being popular. The Indy scene is thriving. Guys are making good money. Impact is still around. So is ROH. AEW is new. Wrestling in Japan is continually selling out arenas and even crossing the ocean to sell out in the U.S. The problem is the perception of the WWE is often the perception of wrestling. If WWE is in a creative stump, then all of wrestling must be. And that's not necessarily the truth. As pointed out, there are independent wrestlers making great money.
That's ignoring the far more risque angles that wrestling has run in the past. Pillman taking Goldust's wife for 30 days. Filming her in the shower. Implying they've slept together. Or Flair planning a romantic evening with Precious while JJ Dillon watched from a closet. Or HBK having accusers saying he slept with them while they were married. And let's not forget what the Dudley's have said to audience members. So wrestling's had angles with sexual context for decades. And you're right, wrestling can't get away with scenes of rape, but that's implying rape or murder is inherent to theater. It's not. That's confusing the content for the context. However, I agree that fans giving up is depressing. But I won't blame wrestling being performance art or theater for it. It always has been.
|
|
|
Post by dazz on Sept 17, 2019 23:29:39 GMT
No that's the thing you mistake, wrestling as a whole is far less popular than it has ever been not just a company or a few companies, that used to be the thing with the territories, not every territory had the same fate, Memphis could be down but Knoxville could be on fire, Dallas could be on a roll but Amarillo could be doing modest business, even with the boom of the 90's and the Cena resurgence in the 00's wrestling has never been as popular as it used to be, almost every territory used to run 6/7 days a week wrestling in front of a few thousand fans on average a night sometimes doing double shots, every territory draw audiences of 10's of thousands of people every week, and there was like 20 territories in the US, so we are talking millions of tickets per week to see wrestling live, wrestling used to do 10 and 20 ratings locally, now look at it the biggest company in the world is pulling 2's and just barely at times, in the peak of the attitude era with WWE, ECW & WCW wrestling fans watching wrestling on TV was 15-17 million at most.
Wrestling does go in cycles but not like this, one of the cycles used to be how ignored by the press it was until it was so hot it couldn't be ignored, then you got resurgence of wrestling press when the product had been selling out the arenas just as well for over 6 months, the perception in the mainstream would change not really the fanbase, even when Memphis was on it's last legs and no one paid to see the shows anymore really it was still a highly popular TV show locally, even if you weren't making money people in Memphis and around the circuit knew who you were, Cornette made the point that you could pick any day pretty much from 1950-1986 and compare the live event gates then to now for all active promotions holding shows on that night and you would see a depressing disparity between the two figures.
A single wrestling company got bigger than any other before it when WWF went national then later global this is unquestionably true but the industry shrunk around it's growth, that's why AEW succeeding is so vital, why everyone hope TNA could for years, that they could be different enough to attract a larger wrestling fanbase to coexist with WWE's sports entertainment fans.
And whilst most fans as kids will age out as is the nature of most things we enjoy as youths the thing is the average wrestling fan age hasn't been going up slowly but steadily, it's literally been going up with how far removed from the AE we get, like in 2002 it was 39 in 2018 it was 55 or something like that, the new fans wrestling is getting don't exceed the number of older fans dying off or younger than the average age fans giving up on the industry, which is a depressing thought to me.
That's just not true about wrestling as a whole not being popular. The Indy scene is thriving. Guys are making good money. Impact is still around. So is ROH. AEW is new. Wrestling in Japan is continually selling out arenas and even crossing the ocean to sell out in the U.S. The problem is the perception of the WWE is often the perception of wrestling. If WWE is in a creative stump, then all of wrestling must be. And that's not necessarily the truth. As pointed out, there are independent wrestlers making great money.
That's ignoring the far more risque angles that wrestling has run in the past. Pillman taking Goldust's wife for 30 days. Filming her in the shower. Implying they've slept together. Or Flair planning a romantic evening with Precious while JJ Dillon watched from a closet. Or HBK having accusers saying he slept with them while they were married. And let's not forget what the Dudley's have said to audience members. So wrestling's had angles with sexual context for decades. And you're right, wrestling can't get away with scenes of rape, but that's implying rape or murder is inherent to theater. It's not. That's confusing the content for the context. However, I agree that fans giving up is depressing. But I won't blame wrestling being performance art or theater for it. It always has been. Yeah but those are risqué wrestling angle's compare them to what other entertainment was getting away with at the time, JJ hiding in the closet to perv was at a time when they had teen comedies with guys pretending to be other dudes to boink said dudes girlfriend without her knowing, also that wasn't serious it was done for the joke and giving Ronnie another guy to deck when he turned around in drag, in the late 90's you had TV shows like Oz, Soprano's and stuff coming out far worse than the Pillman stuff, and yeah Bubba used to say horrendous shit to ECW fans, and he almost started riots, but the thing with wrestling Kevin Nash makes the comment about WCW, that wrestling is a show about sex & violence but Time Warner didn't want them to use sex or violence, so for wrestling to be that it's hilariously limited due to the blurring of the lines between real and entertainment.
Btw I never said wrestling isn't popular, it isn't anywhere near as popular as it used to be and that's true, wrestling now is like with AEW, OMG look they did 4 shows over 5 months and sold 30k tickets, that was 2 shows at MSG back in the day and they ran it every 3-4 weeks let alone all the other shows WWWF ran, that was how many tickets got sold for the shows in just the city of Memphis every month which they ran weekly, as for how the guys are paid that's a change that had to be made to stop guys starving, used to be you got paid off of the gate profits, but in the 90's Indies were so bad that guys with names started demanding fee's, used to it was impossible to lose money as a promoter in wrestling because you paid off the profits, you maybe had a minimum payoff of $50 or something, but if a show only made $10k you made money, now if a show makes $10k at the gate and you are say booking the Bucks and your in Minnesota your losing money because the Bucks alone at $1k or so a piece for the show + Airfare from Cali, Trans and Hotel so like just for one half of a match you are spending upwards of probably $4-5k, then you not only have the other half of the match but 5-8 other matches depending on the size of the card, so unless everyone are locals you are paying $20 and a hotdog for with rent on the building, advertising, insurance, tax and licensing even equipment rental that $10k doesn't go too far.
The other thing is what is considered great money? Some absolutely do but some also aren't independent wrestlers, The Bucks & Kenny haven't been indy guys in years, not properly, they were NJPW mainstays, NJPW pays better than TNA, Karl Anderson supposedly was making $600k a year at one point there, AJ made more in 6 months doing Indies & NJPW than he was making in TNA, same thing are TNA or ROH guys fair to consider Indy guys at this point?
Chris Hero & Colt Cabana have both separately said how if you hussle on the indies you can make 6 figures but it's a lot of work, with the right merch that's easier, but how many guys are making great paydays from wrestling alone? How many are due to podcasts, youtube, radio any number of other things?
1000 ppl at a show used to be a small crowd, now that's a big show, 5000 people that was a decent house now it's huge, and that's when they ran towns weekly to when they run a town monthly at the best of times or 1-2 times a year these days, you know you used to be able to get 10-20k people minimum to come out for a big spectacular blow off show in most territories, over 30,000 in some cases most of whom were locals they lived in the town the show was held in, now unless it's WWE you can hardly get 10k from across the country or world for such a show, used to be 10's of thousands hundreds of thousands in some cases of fans watching wrestling weekly in every town and city in America, now if you had 60-70k per state I would be shocked, it's less popular now than in most of it's history, thankfully it's on a bit of an upswing but by how much is questionable as is for how long, now instead of making a little money off of a lot of people wrestling is making a lot of money off of fewer people, that's not a great thing imo.
|
|