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Post by Jayman on Sept 18, 2019 1:53:25 GMT
That's just not true about wrestling as a whole not being popular. The Indy scene is thriving. Guys are making good money. Impact is still around. So is ROH. AEW is new. Wrestling in Japan is continually selling out arenas and even crossing the ocean to sell out in the U.S. The problem is the perception of the WWE is often the perception of wrestling. If WWE is in a creative stump, then all of wrestling must be. And that's not necessarily the truth. As pointed out, there are independent wrestlers making great money.
That's ignoring the far more risque angles that wrestling has run in the past. Pillman taking Goldust's wife for 30 days. Filming her in the shower. Implying they've slept together. Or Flair planning a romantic evening with Precious while JJ Dillon watched from a closet. Or HBK having accusers saying he slept with them while they were married. And let's not forget what the Dudley's have said to audience members. So wrestling's had angles with sexual context for decades. And you're right, wrestling can't get away with scenes of rape, but that's implying rape or murder is inherent to theater. It's not. That's confusing the content for the context. However, I agree that fans giving up is depressing. But I won't blame wrestling being performance art or theater for it. It always has been. Yeah but those are risqué wrestling angle's compare them to what other entertainment was getting away with at the time, JJ hiding in the closet to perv was at a time when they had teen comedies with guys pretending to be other dudes to boink said dudes girlfriend without her knowing, also that wasn't serious it was done for the joke and giving Ronnie another guy to deck when he turned around in drag, in the late 90's you had TV shows like Oz, Soprano's and stuff coming out far worse than the Pillman stuff, and yeah Bubba used to say horrendous shit to ECW fans, and he almost started riots, but the thing with wrestling Kevin Nash makes the comment about WCW, that wrestling is a show about sex & violence but Time Warner didn't want them to use sex or violence, so for wrestling to be that it's hilariously limited due to the blurring of the lines between real and entertainment.
Btw I never said wrestling isn't popular, it isn't anywhere near as popular as it used to be and that's true, wrestling now is like with AEW, OMG look they did 4 shows over 5 months and sold 30k tickets, that was 2 shows at MSG back in the day and they ran it every 3-4 weeks let alone all the other shows WWWF ran, that was how many tickets got sold for the shows in just the city of Memphis every month which they ran weekly, as for how the guys are paid that's a change that had to be made to stop guys starving, used to be you got paid off of the gate profits, but in the 90's Indies were so bad that guys with names started demanding fee's, used to it was impossible to lose money as a promoter in wrestling because you paid off the profits, you maybe had a minimum payoff of $50 or something, but if a show only made $10k you made money, now if a show makes $10k at the gate and you are say booking the Bucks and your in Minnesota your losing money because the Bucks alone at $1k or so a piece for the show + Airfare from Cali, Trans and Hotel so like just for one half of a match you are spending upwards of probably $4-5k, then you not only have the other half of the match but 5-8 other matches depending on the size of the card, so unless everyone are locals you are paying $20 and a hotdog for with rent on the building, advertising, insurance, tax and licensing even equipment rental that $10k doesn't go too far.
The other thing is what is considered great money? Some absolutely do but some also aren't independent wrestlers, The Bucks & Kenny haven't been indy guys in years, not properly, they were NJPW mainstays, NJPW pays better than TNA, Karl Anderson supposedly was making $600k a year at one point there, AJ made more in 6 months doing Indies & NJPW than he was making in TNA, same thing are TNA or ROH guys fair to consider Indy guys at this point?
Chris Hero & Colt Cabana have both separately said how if you hussle on the indies you can make 6 figures but it's a lot of work, with the right merch that's easier, but how many guys are making great paydays from wrestling alone? How many are due to podcasts, youtube, radio any number of other things?
1000 ppl at a show used to be a small crowd, now that's a big show, 5000 people that was a decent house now it's huge, and that's when they ran towns weekly to when they run a town monthly at the best of times or 1-2 times a year these days, you know you used to be able to get 10-20k people minimum to come out for a big spectacular blow off show in most territories, over 30,000 in some cases most of whom were locals they lived in the town the show was held in, now unless it's WWE you can hardly get 10k from across the country or world for such a show, used to be 10's of thousands hundreds of thousands in some cases of fans watching wrestling weekly in every town and city in America, now if you had 60-70k per state I would be shocked, it's less popular now than in most of it's history, thankfully it's on a bit of an upswing but by how much is questionable as is for how long, now instead of making a little money off of a lot of people wrestling is making a lot of money off of fewer people, that's not a great thing imo.
you know your stuff dazz. I think it’s probably hard for people to grasp how it was at one time. They compare territories to the Indy scene. Indies generally run 10-20 shows per year and usually in front of much less than 1,000 people. A few territories ran A and B shows on the weekends and ran over 500 shows per year and in front of thousands of fans every night. Sure you may get a spot show that drew 500 people but the weekly and bi weekly towns were thousands. This isn’t a knock on preachcaleb. I’m just saying if you didn’t live through it it’s hard to grasp. I started watching a few years before the wwf went national so I kinda caught the tail end of the glory days when business was big in different parts of the country. Could you imagine if the wwf tried running the same buildings every 2 weeks in the 70’s or 80’s? They would’ve been out of business within a couple of years with that product. But they had more buildings so they could run most of the towns about 8 times a year. Except obviously ny, philly, DC, Boston, and Pittsburgh which were once a month. Ofcourse you’re going to draw if you’re running a town 8 times per year.
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Post by factchecker2point0 on Sept 18, 2019 13:04:12 GMT
A man of his time and place. However he's living in the past and his views on modern wrestling are as relevant as Blockbusters would be on movie viewing in 2019. Fair enough, but he's also a man of my time and place which is probably why the only wrestling I watch these days is Billy Corgan's NWA.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 18, 2019 13:40:12 GMT
That's just not true about wrestling as a whole not being popular. The Indy scene is thriving. Guys are making good money. Impact is still around. So is ROH. AEW is new. Wrestling in Japan is continually selling out arenas and even crossing the ocean to sell out in the U.S. The problem is the perception of the WWE is often the perception of wrestling. If WWE is in a creative stump, then all of wrestling must be. And that's not necessarily the truth. As pointed out, there are independent wrestlers making great money.
That's ignoring the far more risque angles that wrestling has run in the past. Pillman taking Goldust's wife for 30 days. Filming her in the shower. Implying they've slept together. Or Flair planning a romantic evening with Precious while JJ Dillon watched from a closet. Or HBK having accusers saying he slept with them while they were married. And let's not forget what the Dudley's have said to audience members. So wrestling's had angles with sexual context for decades. And you're right, wrestling can't get away with scenes of rape, but that's implying rape or murder is inherent to theater. It's not. That's confusing the content for the context. However, I agree that fans giving up is depressing. But I won't blame wrestling being performance art or theater for it. It always has been. Yeah but those are risqué wrestling angle's compare them to what other entertainment was getting away with at the time, JJ hiding in the closet to perv was at a time when they had teen comedies with guys pretending to be other dudes to boink said dudes girlfriend without her knowing, also that wasn't serious it was done for the joke and giving Ronnie another guy to deck when he turned around in drag, in the late 90's you had TV shows like Oz, Soprano's and stuff coming out far worse than the Pillman stuff, and yeah Bubba used to say horrendous shit to ECW fans, and he almost started riots, but the thing with wrestling Kevin Nash makes the comment about WCW, that wrestling is a show about sex & violence but Time Warner didn't want them to use sex or violence, so for wrestling to be that it's hilariously limited due to the blurring of the lines between real and entertainment.
Btw I never said wrestling isn't popular, it isn't anywhere near as popular as it used to be and that's true, wrestling now is like with AEW, OMG look they did 4 shows over 5 months and sold 30k tickets, that was 2 shows at MSG back in the day and they ran it every 3-4 weeks let alone all the other shows WWWF ran, that was how many tickets got sold for the shows in just the city of Memphis every month which they ran weekly, as for how the guys are paid that's a change that had to be made to stop guys starving, used to be you got paid off of the gate profits, but in the 90's Indies were so bad that guys with names started demanding fee's, used to it was impossible to lose money as a promoter in wrestling because you paid off the profits, you maybe had a minimum payoff of $50 or something, but if a show only made $10k you made money, now if a show makes $10k at the gate and you are say booking the Bucks and your in Minnesota your losing money because the Bucks alone at $1k or so a piece for the show + Airfare from Cali, Trans and Hotel so like just for one half of a match you are spending upwards of probably $4-5k, then you not only have the other half of the match but 5-8 other matches depending on the size of the card, so unless everyone are locals you are paying $20 and a hotdog for with rent on the building, advertising, insurance, tax and licensing even equipment rental that $10k doesn't go too far.
The other thing is what is considered great money? Some absolutely do but some also aren't independent wrestlers, The Bucks & Kenny haven't been indy guys in years, not properly, they were NJPW mainstays, NJPW pays better than TNA, Karl Anderson supposedly was making $600k a year at one point there, AJ made more in 6 months doing Indies & NJPW than he was making in TNA, same thing are TNA or ROH guys fair to consider Indy guys at this point?
Chris Hero & Colt Cabana have both separately said how if you hussle on the indies you can make 6 figures but it's a lot of work, with the right merch that's easier, but how many guys are making great paydays from wrestling alone? How many are due to podcasts, youtube, radio any number of other things?
1000 ppl at a show used to be a small crowd, now that's a big show, 5000 people that was a decent house now it's huge, and that's when they ran towns weekly to when they run a town monthly at the best of times or 1-2 times a year these days, you know you used to be able to get 10-20k people minimum to come out for a big spectacular blow off show in most territories, over 30,000 in some cases most of whom were locals they lived in the town the show was held in, now unless it's WWE you can hardly get 10k from across the country or world for such a show, used to be 10's of thousands hundreds of thousands in some cases of fans watching wrestling weekly in every town and city in America, now if you had 60-70k per state I would be shocked, it's less popular now than in most of it's history, thankfully it's on a bit of an upswing but by how much is questionable as is for how long, now instead of making a little money off of a lot of people wrestling is making a lot of money off of fewer people, that's not a great thing imo.
The problem is you're comparing average Indie shows with the top territories. Of course they won't do the same numbers. But even during the peak of the territory days, there were still smaller local promotions that average a few hundred people per show and ran maybe a few times per month. Youtube is full of interviews with guys from the 70s and 80s talking about how they performed shows in front of 20 or 30 people for maybe a $10 payday. Just as now a days, there are a lot of indie shows. Since there are no real territories anymore, the audience doesn't need to flock to one promotion. They can go a local one and catch some wrestling. The audience is there. It just isn't centralized as it used to be. The description of the Bucks is what the territories were also like. The big names demanded a big pay even when they got paid with the gate. Flair didn't work for just $40. The NWA charged a fee for its champion and other big names. Yes, it's a lot of work to hustle and make six figures on the indies. But that was the same during the territory days. You had to hustle and work hard. Wrestling was never about easy money. And yes, guys are making money off youtube, podcasts, and other avenues. But that's also a part of wrestling. Finding the new way to make money. Remember: there was a time when some people felt making money off tv was cheating. It wasn't. It was just a new angle to make money. And granted, wrestling is not as popular as it was. Though there's no reason to think it's because of its status as performance art or theater. Even in the 80s, people knew what it was.
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Post by Jayman on Sept 18, 2019 16:22:16 GMT
no it is not theater. These aren’t actors and this isn’t broadway. Somebody having a gimmick doesn’t make it performance art nor does it make it theater Yes, they are actors. Bret Hart himself has said it. WWE superstars memorize written scripts. Heck, Roman Reigns had an acting coach. They pretend to be what they aren't and feel what they don't for our entertainment. Those are actors.
They perform a scripted story, involving wild characters (some supernatural in nature), with excess melodrama culminating in staged combat in front of a live audience. Pro-wrestling is a perfect example of theater. P.S. Theater isn't limited to Broadway. So that fact that it isn't Broadway really doesn't matter. no they are not actors. You just illustrated one of the biggest problems. Scripts written out for guys and people memorizing lines and guys thinking they need acting lessons. You don’t really believe that that’s how things were done in the past do you? It was never rocket science or theatre. All that was needed was a few verbal instructions
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Post by Jayman on Sept 18, 2019 16:34:48 GMT
Yeah but those are risqué wrestling angle's compare them to what other entertainment was getting away with at the time, JJ hiding in the closet to perv was at a time when they had teen comedies with guys pretending to be other dudes to boink said dudes girlfriend without her knowing, also that wasn't serious it was done for the joke and giving Ronnie another guy to deck when he turned around in drag, in the late 90's you had TV shows like Oz, Soprano's and stuff coming out far worse than the Pillman stuff, and yeah Bubba used to say horrendous shit to ECW fans, and he almost started riots, but the thing with wrestling Kevin Nash makes the comment about WCW, that wrestling is a show about sex & violence but Time Warner didn't want them to use sex or violence, so for wrestling to be that it's hilariously limited due to the blurring of the lines between real and entertainment.
Btw I never said wrestling isn't popular, it isn't anywhere near as popular as it used to be and that's true, wrestling now is like with AEW, OMG look they did 4 shows over 5 months and sold 30k tickets, that was 2 shows at MSG back in the day and they ran it every 3-4 weeks let alone all the other shows WWWF ran, that was how many tickets got sold for the shows in just the city of Memphis every month which they ran weekly, as for how the guys are paid that's a change that had to be made to stop guys starving, used to be you got paid off of the gate profits, but in the 90's Indies were so bad that guys with names started demanding fee's, used to it was impossible to lose money as a promoter in wrestling because you paid off the profits, you maybe had a minimum payoff of $50 or something, but if a show only made $10k you made money, now if a show makes $10k at the gate and you are say booking the Bucks and your in Minnesota your losing money because the Bucks alone at $1k or so a piece for the show + Airfare from Cali, Trans and Hotel so like just for one half of a match you are spending upwards of probably $4-5k, then you not only have the other half of the match but 5-8 other matches depending on the size of the card, so unless everyone are locals you are paying $20 and a hotdog for with rent on the building, advertising, insurance, tax and licensing even equipment rental that $10k doesn't go too far.
The other thing is what is considered great money? Some absolutely do but some also aren't independent wrestlers, The Bucks & Kenny haven't been indy guys in years, not properly, they were NJPW mainstays, NJPW pays better than TNA, Karl Anderson supposedly was making $600k a year at one point there, AJ made more in 6 months doing Indies & NJPW than he was making in TNA, same thing are TNA or ROH guys fair to consider Indy guys at this point?
Chris Hero & Colt Cabana have both separately said how if you hussle on the indies you can make 6 figures but it's a lot of work, with the right merch that's easier, but how many guys are making great paydays from wrestling alone? How many are due to podcasts, youtube, radio any number of other things?
1000 ppl at a show used to be a small crowd, now that's a big show, 5000 people that was a decent house now it's huge, and that's when they ran towns weekly to when they run a town monthly at the best of times or 1-2 times a year these days, you know you used to be able to get 10-20k people minimum to come out for a big spectacular blow off show in most territories, over 30,000 in some cases most of whom were locals they lived in the town the show was held in, now unless it's WWE you can hardly get 10k from across the country or world for such a show, used to be 10's of thousands hundreds of thousands in some cases of fans watching wrestling weekly in every town and city in America, now if you had 60-70k per state I would be shocked, it's less popular now than in most of it's history, thankfully it's on a bit of an upswing but by how much is questionable as is for how long, now instead of making a little money off of a lot of people wrestling is making a lot of money off of fewer people, that's not a great thing imo.
The problem is you're comparing average Indie shows with the top territories. Of course they won't do the same numbers. But even during the peak of the territory days, there were still smaller local promotions that average a few hundred people per show and ran maybe a few times per month. Youtube is full of interviews with guys from the 70s and 80s talking about how they performed shows in front of 20 or 30 people for maybe a $10 payday. Just as now a days, there are a lot of indie shows. Since there are no real territories anymore, the audience doesn't need to flock to one promotion. They can go a local one and catch some wrestling. The audience is there. It just isn't centralized as it used to be. The description of the Bucks is what the territories were also like. The big names demanded a big pay even when they got paid with the gate. Flair didn't work for just $40. The NWA charged a fee for its champion and other big names. Yes, it's a lot of work to hustle and make six figures on the indies. But that was the same during the territory days. You had to hustle and work hard. Wrestling was never about easy money. And yes, guys are making money off youtube, podcasts, and other avenues. But that's also a part of wrestling. Finding the new way to make money. Remember: there was a time when some people felt making money off tv was cheating. It wasn't. It was just a new angle to make money. And granted, wrestling is not as popular as it was. Though there's no reason to think it's because of its status as performance art or theater. Even in the 80s, people knew what it was. He's comparing the territories to the indy shows because you made the suggestion of how huge wrestling is now because there's a few indies that can draw. Yes there were indepedents in the 70's and 80's that drew 100 people and ran in small armories, but the point being is that there were also over 2 dozen territories that ran every night and drew thousands. Now there is not. That is the whole point. What a select few guys that have developed their name and are able to make money on the indy scene is not the same thing as what territories were like. It's not like anybody can make a success with hard work and hustle. It is a select few guys that have really gotten over and really gotten their name out there or have been on tv that can get more bookings and get paid more. the overwhelming majority of the guys on independents are not able to do that. Whether or not people have to flock to one promotion has nothing to do with anything. It's not like attendance is small on indy shows because the fanbase is spread out and is busy going to different independnets. There may be an element to that if two major indies are running head to head, but overall that's not going to amount to much difference.
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Post by dazz on Sept 18, 2019 16:47:50 GMT
Yeah but those are risqué wrestling angle's compare them to what other entertainment was getting away with at the time, JJ hiding in the closet to perv was at a time when they had teen comedies with guys pretending to be other dudes to boink said dudes girlfriend without her knowing, also that wasn't serious it was done for the joke and giving Ronnie another guy to deck when he turned around in drag, in the late 90's you had TV shows like Oz, Soprano's and stuff coming out far worse than the Pillman stuff, and yeah Bubba used to say horrendous shit to ECW fans, and he almost started riots, but the thing with wrestling Kevin Nash makes the comment about WCW, that wrestling is a show about sex & violence but Time Warner didn't want them to use sex or violence, so for wrestling to be that it's hilariously limited due to the blurring of the lines between real and entertainment.
Btw I never said wrestling isn't popular, it isn't anywhere near as popular as it used to be and that's true, wrestling now is like with AEW, OMG look they did 4 shows over 5 months and sold 30k tickets, that was 2 shows at MSG back in the day and they ran it every 3-4 weeks let alone all the other shows WWWF ran, that was how many tickets got sold for the shows in just the city of Memphis every month which they ran weekly, as for how the guys are paid that's a change that had to be made to stop guys starving, used to be you got paid off of the gate profits, but in the 90's Indies were so bad that guys with names started demanding fee's, used to it was impossible to lose money as a promoter in wrestling because you paid off the profits, you maybe had a minimum payoff of $50 or something, but if a show only made $10k you made money, now if a show makes $10k at the gate and you are say booking the Bucks and your in Minnesota your losing money because the Bucks alone at $1k or so a piece for the show + Airfare from Cali, Trans and Hotel so like just for one half of a match you are spending upwards of probably $4-5k, then you not only have the other half of the match but 5-8 other matches depending on the size of the card, so unless everyone are locals you are paying $20 and a hotdog for with rent on the building, advertising, insurance, tax and licensing even equipment rental that $10k doesn't go too far.
The other thing is what is considered great money? Some absolutely do but some also aren't independent wrestlers, The Bucks & Kenny haven't been indy guys in years, not properly, they were NJPW mainstays, NJPW pays better than TNA, Karl Anderson supposedly was making $600k a year at one point there, AJ made more in 6 months doing Indies & NJPW than he was making in TNA, same thing are TNA or ROH guys fair to consider Indy guys at this point?
Chris Hero & Colt Cabana have both separately said how if you hussle on the indies you can make 6 figures but it's a lot of work, with the right merch that's easier, but how many guys are making great paydays from wrestling alone? How many are due to podcasts, youtube, radio any number of other things?
1000 ppl at a show used to be a small crowd, now that's a big show, 5000 people that was a decent house now it's huge, and that's when they ran towns weekly to when they run a town monthly at the best of times or 1-2 times a year these days, you know you used to be able to get 10-20k people minimum to come out for a big spectacular blow off show in most territories, over 30,000 in some cases most of whom were locals they lived in the town the show was held in, now unless it's WWE you can hardly get 10k from across the country or world for such a show, used to be 10's of thousands hundreds of thousands in some cases of fans watching wrestling weekly in every town and city in America, now if you had 60-70k per state I would be shocked, it's less popular now than in most of it's history, thankfully it's on a bit of an upswing but by how much is questionable as is for how long, now instead of making a little money off of a lot of people wrestling is making a lot of money off of fewer people, that's not a great thing imo.
The problem is you're comparing average Indie shows with the top territories. Of course they won't do the same numbers. But even during the peak of the territory days, there were still smaller local promotions that average a few hundred people per show and ran maybe a few times per month. Youtube is full of interviews with guys from the 70s and 80s talking about how they performed shows in front of 20 or 30 people for maybe a $10 payday. Just as now a days, there are a lot of indie shows. Since there are no real territories anymore, the audience doesn't need to flock to one promotion. They can go a local one and catch some wrestling. The audience is there. It just isn't centralized as it used to be. The description of the Bucks is what the territories were also like. The big names demanded a big pay even when they got paid with the gate. Flair didn't work for just $40. The NWA charged a fee for its champion and other big names. Yes, it's a lot of work to hustle and make six figures on the indies. But that was the same during the territory days. You had to hustle and work hard. Wrestling was never about easy money. And yes, guys are making money off youtube, podcasts, and other avenues. But that's also a part of wrestling. Finding the new way to make money. Remember: there was a time when some people felt making money off tv was cheating. It wasn't. It was just a new angle to make money. And granted, wrestling is not as popular as it was. Though there's no reason to think it's because of its status as performance art or theater. Even in the 80s, people knew what it was. No im not I am not making exceptions for todays product is all, where there shows and companies that didn't make huge numbers? yes and these were well known, but the problem is those companies were doing so in a location with a thriving territory, they were also known for being the minor leagues of the area or where blackballed guys worked, so being the minors to a major territory and drawing a few hundred people without TV or real names made sense, or you had territories known for being the breaking in or winding down careers like Kansas City iirc, or for a lot of it's run Dallas, but they still usually far more people than the average indy does now, and the thing is comparing AEW the "hottest" thing in all of pro wrestling, that is going onto TNT, is doing 100k PPV buys, that's backed by a billionaire and has some of the hottest acts in wrestling working for them, it's still a omg look what they did they sold 30k in tickets over 4 shows, compare this to Memphis like I said which wasn't a money territory it was a solid one but not a major one compared to the likes of Dallas at a time, JCP for a long time, Florida, NY and ect that was their ticket sales for Monday nights for a month and most territories had their big weekly shows that outdid that, the point is this used to be common place numbers in most territories, now it's amazing a show outside of WWE in the US can draw 10,000+ fans and one of the reasons for that is how the business changed and wrestlers changed how they treated the business.
Hopefully this is just the start of a rise in wrestling popularity, god I hope so, if pro wrestling overall gained popularity and the style I like could thrive whilst the comedy crap also thrived I wouldn't care, I have said before I don't hate comedy wrestling, in it's place I think it's fine, but the silly stuff and the lack of respect shown to wrestling I feel has hurt the business and we are just seeing it now that ok the fandom has been dried out to the most ardent of us, we are the fucking morons who went to see The Last Knight thinking oh maybe this one will turn it around and nope Bay fucked us again, we are the looneys who love it so much we cant give it up and what I am afraid of is this new resurgence isn't wrestling fans, but the comedy fans, and the problem with that is if they aren't wrestling fans they wont spread to other companies and bring wrestling up to prominence again, my fear is they salted the earth so all they now have is the cockroaches of wrestling fans who are watching sketch shows in a wrestling ring and a bunch of comedy fans?
And no wrestling used to be easy, that's the thing no one gets, used to be wrestlers made a fucking mint and all they had to do was work out a little, tan a little, get to the shows an hour b4 bell time, wrestle 10-20 minutes unless you were NWA champion that is, hang out in the back for a few hours then go back to the hotel bang some rats drink some booze, sleep and drive to the next town, you didn't need to hustle when you had a spot, sure you may have had to hustle to find spots, but that was more for the likes of Abdullah or Brody who were traveling acts who couldn't stay any one place too long or burn out the crowds or you know threaten the owners in Brody's case, most guys were 6 weeks to 6 months in most territories depending on how over they were and how much they got paid, they weren't running their own merch, doing podcasts, doing YouTube shows, doing stand up, auditioning for acting jobs, some guys who were local legends did have regular jobs, because they were homesteaders, they didn't leave the territory, they also lived in shorter territories or cheaper ones so they got jobs they liked that they could do and wrestle also but these were rare guys until they retired or so, most guys just hung out had fun and bullshitted on the road and made a lot of money doing so, used to be top territory guys were earning NFL money, now the lowest paid NFL guy makes more than a top WWE guy, Cornette and the ME combined made close to 750k the year they worked for Bill Watts, when adjusted, that's how much a good but not huge territories top tag team could make, do you think that the Bucks without NJPW were pulling in $300k a year each? maybe with NJPW but not without them.
They used to have a hundred guys earning great money, a thousand guys making good money and a thousand or so more making ok money, now it's outside of WWE, a handful of guys make good money, less than a hundred make decent money and the rest are lucky to make anything unless you are signed to one of the bigger promotions in the US, Mexico or Japan, and they used to do it by just wrestling, now you need 3-4 jobs and have to be hustling non stop to do it, those who do it it's great they make that money god bless them for that, and it will probably be better for them as they have skills and experiences for after wrestling unlike the older guys, but still they have to work so much harder and for less money now, and that can dry up, Chris Daniels was one of the hottest acts on the indies for several years but he even admitted after a few years you stop being the hot star and it's harder to find bookings, used to be 6 week to 6 months and you then had a run elsewhere, you could make more or less money who knows but you would be working regularly and making money, guys with no education and no prospects outside of menial labour could earn 100's of thousands a year in the 50's, 60's, 70's & 80's now you need to be a multifaceted entrepreneur unless you get signed by a major company.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 18, 2019 18:31:05 GMT
Yes, they are actors. Bret Hart himself has said it. WWE superstars memorize written scripts. Heck, Roman Reigns had an acting coach. They pretend to be what they aren't and feel what they don't for our entertainment. Those are actors.
They perform a scripted story, involving wild characters (some supernatural in nature), with excess melodrama culminating in staged combat in front of a live audience. Pro-wrestling is a perfect example of theater. P.S. Theater isn't limited to Broadway. So that fact that it isn't Broadway really doesn't matter. no they are not actors. You just illustrated one of the biggest problems. Scripts written out for guys and people memorizing lines and guys thinking they need acting lessons. You don’t really believe that that’s how things were done in the past do you? It was never rocket science or theatre. All that was needed was a few verbal instructions And regardless of how it was done in the past, Bret Hart still referred to himself as an actor, even at the height of his career. They are actors. They're paid to entertain with melodramatic stories and go through choreographed combat while displaying emotions they aren't necessarily feeling. That's what an actor does. That's literally the description of the MCU. Wrestlers play a part. Glenn Jacobs wasn't really in a house fire as a kid that killed his parents. Mick Foley didn't have his hands smashed during childhood piano lessons. But that was their characters' backstories. And they acted those roles. And even back then with the few verbal instructions, that's improv. Something else that actors participate in. It's acting. It's theater. It's sports exhibition. Pro-wrestling is that all rolled into one unique form of entertainment. There's no shame in it.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 18, 2019 18:37:18 GMT
The problem is you're comparing average Indie shows with the top territories. Of course they won't do the same numbers. But even during the peak of the territory days, there were still smaller local promotions that average a few hundred people per show and ran maybe a few times per month. Youtube is full of interviews with guys from the 70s and 80s talking about how they performed shows in front of 20 or 30 people for maybe a $10 payday. Just as now a days, there are a lot of indie shows. Since there are no real territories anymore, the audience doesn't need to flock to one promotion. They can go a local one and catch some wrestling. The audience is there. It just isn't centralized as it used to be. The description of the Bucks is what the territories were also like. The big names demanded a big pay even when they got paid with the gate. Flair didn't work for just $40. The NWA charged a fee for its champion and other big names. Yes, it's a lot of work to hustle and make six figures on the indies. But that was the same during the territory days. You had to hustle and work hard. Wrestling was never about easy money. And yes, guys are making money off youtube, podcasts, and other avenues. But that's also a part of wrestling. Finding the new way to make money. Remember: there was a time when some people felt making money off tv was cheating. It wasn't. It was just a new angle to make money. And granted, wrestling is not as popular as it was. Though there's no reason to think it's because of its status as performance art or theater. Even in the 80s, people knew what it was. He's comparing the territories to the indy shows because you made the suggestion of how huge wrestling is now because there's a few indies that can draw. Yes there were indepedents in the 70's and 80's that drew 100 people and ran in small armories, but the point being is that there were also over 2 dozen territories that ran every night and drew thousands. Now there is not. That is the whole point. What a select few guys that have developed their name and are able to make money on the indy scene is not the same thing as what territories were like. It's not like anybody can make a success with hard work and hustle. Whether or not people have to flock to one promotion has nothing to do with anything. You're right. There aren't 2 dozen top territories. But there are dozens of indie feds holding shows on any given night of the week. Again, the indies don't compare to the top territories. But they do compare to the smaller local promotions that have always been around. Those smaller promotions were as much a part of the wrestling landscape as the top territories. The wrestlers themselves have said so. It was those small promotions that helped keep them working and employed before they could make it to the bigger venues. That is how wrestling has always been. Even at the height of the territory days. The vast majority of guys never ended up on tv. Or if they did, they were litter more than a jobber.
Actually, that's exactly what it is. Rather than fans in north Texas flocking to Dallas for the latest WCCW show, they mostly stay in their home towns and go to local shows.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 18, 2019 19:02:18 GMT
The problem is you're comparing average Indie shows with the top territories. Of course they won't do the same numbers. But even during the peak of the territory days, there were still smaller local promotions that average a few hundred people per show and ran maybe a few times per month. Youtube is full of interviews with guys from the 70s and 80s talking about how they performed shows in front of 20 or 30 people for maybe a $10 payday. Just as now a days, there are a lot of indie shows. Since there are no real territories anymore, the audience doesn't need to flock to one promotion. They can go a local one and catch some wrestling. The audience is there. It just isn't centralized as it used to be. The description of the Bucks is what the territories were also like. The big names demanded a big pay even when they got paid with the gate. Flair didn't work for just $40. The NWA charged a fee for its champion and other big names. Yes, it's a lot of work to hustle and make six figures on the indies. But that was the same during the territory days. You had to hustle and work hard. Wrestling was never about easy money. And yes, guys are making money off youtube, podcasts, and other avenues. But that's also a part of wrestling. Finding the new way to make money. Remember: there was a time when some people felt making money off tv was cheating. It wasn't. It was just a new angle to make money. And granted, wrestling is not as popular as it was. Though there's no reason to think it's because of its status as performance art or theater. Even in the 80s, people knew what it was. No im not I am not making exceptions for todays product is all, where there shows and companies that didn't make huge numbers? yes and these were well known, but the problem is those companies were doing so in a location with a thriving territory, they were also known for being the minor leagues of the area or where blackballed guys worked, so being the minors to a major territory and drawing a few hundred people without TV or real names made sense, or you had territories known for being the breaking in or winding down careers like Kansas City iirc, or for a lot of it's run Dallas, but they still usually far more people than the average indy does now, and the thing is comparing AEW the "hottest" thing in all of pro wrestling, that is going onto TNT, is doing 100k PPV buys, that's backed by a billionaire and has some of the hottest acts in wrestling working for them, it's still a omg look what they did they sold 30k in tickets over 4 shows, compare this to Memphis like I said which wasn't a money territory it was a solid one but not a major one compared to the likes of Dallas at a time, JCP for a long time, Florida, NY and ect that was their ticket sales for Monday nights for a month and most territories had their big weekly shows that outdid that, the point is this used to be common place numbers in most territories, now it's amazing a show outside of WWE in the US can draw 10,000+ fans and one of the reasons for that is how the business changed and wrestlers changed how they treated the business.
Hopefully this is just the start of a rise in wrestling popularity, god I hope so, if pro wrestling overall gained popularity and the style I like could thrive whilst the comedy crap also thrived I wouldn't care, I have said before I don't hate comedy wrestling, in it's place I think it's fine, but the silly stuff and the lack of respect shown to wrestling I feel has hurt the business and we are just seeing it now that ok the fandom has been dried out to the most ardent of us, we are the fucking morons who went to see The Last Knight thinking oh maybe this one will turn it around and nope Bay fucked us again, we are the looneys who love it so much we cant give it up and what I am afraid of is this new resurgence isn't wrestling fans, but the comedy fans, and the problem with that is if they aren't wrestling fans they wont spread to other companies and bring wrestling up to prominence again, my fear is they salted the earth so all they now have is the cockroaches of wrestling fans who are watching sketch shows in a wrestling ring and a bunch of comedy fans?
And no wrestling used to be easy, that's the thing no one gets, used to be wrestlers made a fucking mint and all they had to do was work out a little, tan a little, get to the shows an hour b4 bell time, wrestle 10-20 minutes unless you were NWA champion that is, hang out in the back for a few hours then go back to the hotel bang some rats drink some booze, sleep and drive to the next town, you didn't need to hustle when you had a spot, sure you may have had to hustle to find spots, but that was more for the likes of Abdullah or Brody who were traveling acts who couldn't stay any one place too long or burn out the crowds or you know threaten the owners in Brody's case, most guys were 6 weeks to 6 months in most territories depending on how over they were and how much they got paid, they weren't running their own merch, doing podcasts, doing YouTube shows, doing stand up, auditioning for acting jobs, some guys who were local legends did have regular jobs, because they were homesteaders, they didn't leave the territory, they also lived in shorter territories or cheaper ones so they got jobs they liked that they could do and wrestle also but these were rare guys until they retired or so, most guys just hung out had fun and bullshitted on the road and made a lot of money doing so, used to be top territory guys were earning NFL money, now the lowest paid NFL guy makes more than a top WWE guy, Cornette and the ME combined made close to 750k the year they worked for Bill Watts, when adjusted, that's how much a good but not huge territories top tag team could make, do you think that the Bucks without NJPW were pulling in $300k a year each? maybe with NJPW but not without them.
those who do it it's great they make that money god bless them for that, and it will probably be better for them as they have skills and experiences for after wrestling unlike the older guys, but still they have to work so much harder and for less money now, and that can dry up, Chris Daniels was one of the hottest acts on the indies for several years but he even admitted after a few years you stop being the hot star and it's harder to find bookings, used to be 6 week to 6 months and you then had a run elsewhere, you could make more or less money who knows but you would be working regularly and making money, guys with no education and no prospects outside of menial labour could earn 100's of thousands a year in the 50's, 60's, 70's & 80's now you need to be a multifaceted entrepreneur unless you get signed by a major company.
Again, those territories centralized the audience. They flocked to the big shows. Similar to how AEW, GPW, Evolve, or New Japan has done. But there were still smaller local promotions that barely drew a hundred people. Those are the equivalent of the indie scene. That's how the average wrestler made a living. Doing the circuit between a bunch of smaller promotions for a payday that probably amounted to little more than enough gas money to hit the next town. And that's how the indie scene is working today. No wrestler has ever said wrestling was easy. They've said it was fun, but not easy. And it's unfair to blame the wrestlers for changing the business. The business is always changing. But the death of the territories was due to the WWF's ascension. The average fan's perception of wrestling is whatever their perception of WWE is. Not necessarily what the indie scene is. And no wrestler would say wrestling was easy. They'd say it was fun (there's that word again), but not easy. Being on the road five, six, or even seven days a week is not easy, no matter how much drugs, booze, or women there are. Saying it was easy is a disservice to the guys who gave their blood, sweat, and tears to the business. It's a hard job. It's a hard life. And true, the NFL does pay more. But that's ignoring that their pay has gone up over the decades, averaging maybe $50,000 a year in the 70s, to nearly $800,000 a year now. And believe me, if podcasts and youtube had been around in the 70's, all those guys would be investing their time in that. Why? Because it's another source of revenue. Money is the bottom line for prowrestling. Any wrestler worth his salt would jump at the chance to make more of it. And many of them did in fact run their own merch. Heck, the faces used to split their merch sales with the heels, so they could both make some good money. And that's exactly how it was for the average pro-wrestler during the territory days as well. Heck, Stone Cold has mentioned how he was working full time as a forklift operator while wrestling just to earn enough to make a living.
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Post by dazz on Sept 18, 2019 20:25:04 GMT
No im not I am not making exceptions for todays product is all, where there shows and companies that didn't make huge numbers? yes and these were well known, but the problem is those companies were doing so in a location with a thriving territory, they were also known for being the minor leagues of the area or where blackballed guys worked, so being the minors to a major territory and drawing a few hundred people without TV or real names made sense, or you had territories known for being the breaking in or winding down careers like Kansas City iirc, or for a lot of it's run Dallas, but they still usually far more people than the average indy does now, and the thing is comparing AEW the "hottest" thing in all of pro wrestling, that is going onto TNT, is doing 100k PPV buys, that's backed by a billionaire and has some of the hottest acts in wrestling working for them, it's still a omg look what they did they sold 30k in tickets over 4 shows, compare this to Memphis like I said which wasn't a money territory it was a solid one but not a major one compared to the likes of Dallas at a time, JCP for a long time, Florida, NY and ect that was their ticket sales for Monday nights for a month and most territories had their big weekly shows that outdid that, the point is this used to be common place numbers in most territories, now it's amazing a show outside of WWE in the US can draw 10,000+ fans and one of the reasons for that is how the business changed and wrestlers changed how they treated the business.
Hopefully this is just the start of a rise in wrestling popularity, god I hope so, if pro wrestling overall gained popularity and the style I like could thrive whilst the comedy crap also thrived I wouldn't care, I have said before I don't hate comedy wrestling, in it's place I think it's fine, but the silly stuff and the lack of respect shown to wrestling I feel has hurt the business and we are just seeing it now that ok the fandom has been dried out to the most ardent of us, we are the fucking morons who went to see The Last Knight thinking oh maybe this one will turn it around and nope Bay fucked us again, we are the looneys who love it so much we cant give it up and what I am afraid of is this new resurgence isn't wrestling fans, but the comedy fans, and the problem with that is if they aren't wrestling fans they wont spread to other companies and bring wrestling up to prominence again, my fear is they salted the earth so all they now have is the cockroaches of wrestling fans who are watching sketch shows in a wrestling ring and a bunch of comedy fans?
And no wrestling used to be easy, that's the thing no one gets, used to be wrestlers made a fucking mint and all they had to do was work out a little, tan a little, get to the shows an hour b4 bell time, wrestle 10-20 minutes unless you were NWA champion that is, hang out in the back for a few hours then go back to the hotel bang some rats drink some booze, sleep and drive to the next town, you didn't need to hustle when you had a spot, sure you may have had to hustle to find spots, but that was more for the likes of Abdullah or Brody who were traveling acts who couldn't stay any one place too long or burn out the crowds or you know threaten the owners in Brody's case, most guys were 6 weeks to 6 months in most territories depending on how over they were and how much they got paid, they weren't running their own merch, doing podcasts, doing YouTube shows, doing stand up, auditioning for acting jobs, some guys who were local legends did have regular jobs, because they were homesteaders, they didn't leave the territory, they also lived in shorter territories or cheaper ones so they got jobs they liked that they could do and wrestle also but these were rare guys until they retired or so, most guys just hung out had fun and bullshitted on the road and made a lot of money doing so, used to be top territory guys were earning NFL money, now the lowest paid NFL guy makes more than a top WWE guy, Cornette and the ME combined made close to 750k the year they worked for Bill Watts, when adjusted, that's how much a good but not huge territories top tag team could make, do you think that the Bucks without NJPW were pulling in $300k a year each? maybe with NJPW but not without them.
those who do it it's great they make that money god bless them for that, and it will probably be better for them as they have skills and experiences for after wrestling unlike the older guys, but still they have to work so much harder and for less money now, and that can dry up, Chris Daniels was one of the hottest acts on the indies for several years but he even admitted after a few years you stop being the hot star and it's harder to find bookings, used to be 6 week to 6 months and you then had a run elsewhere, you could make more or less money who knows but you would be working regularly and making money, guys with no education and no prospects outside of menial labour could earn 100's of thousands a year in the 50's, 60's, 70's & 80's now you need to be a multifaceted entrepreneur unless you get signed by a major company.
Again, those territories centralized the audience. They flocked to the big shows. Similar to how AEW, GPW, Evolve, or New Japan has done. But there were still smaller local promotions that barely drew a hundred people. Those are the equivalent of the indie scene. That's how the average wrestler made a living. Doing the circuit between a bunch of smaller promotions for a payday that probably amounted to little more than enough gas money to hit the next town. And that's how the indie scene is working today. No wrestler has ever said wrestling was easy. They've said it was fun, but not easy. And it's unfair to blame the wrestlers for changing the business. The business is always changing. But the death of the territories was due to the WWF's ascension. The average fan's perception of wrestling is whatever their perception of WWE is. Not necessarily what the indie scene is. And no wrestler would say wrestling was easy. They'd say it was fun (there's that word again), but not easy. Being on the road five, six, or even seven days a week is not easy, no matter how much drugs, booze, or women there are. Saying it was easy is a disservice to the guys who gave their blood, sweat, and tears to the business. It's a hard job. It's a hard life. And true, the NFL does pay more. But that's ignoring that their pay has gone up over the decades, averaging maybe $50,000 a year in the 70s, to nearly $800,000 a year now. And believe me, if podcasts and youtube had been around in the 70's, all those guys would be investing their time in that. Why? Because it's another source of revenue. Money is the bottom line for prowrestling. Any wrestler worth his salt would jump at the chance to make more of it. And many of them did in fact run their own merch. Heck, the faces used to split their merch sales with the heels, so they could both make some good money. And that's exactly how it was for the average pro-wrestler during the territory days as well. Heck, Stone Cold has mentioned how he was working full time as a forklift operator while wrestling just to earn enough to make a living. Ok it used to be simple how about that if you want to be pedantic, wrestling used to be simple you wrestled and you made a shit load of money, yes it was a tough job and not everyone could do that, but considering we aren't talking about the grind of wrestling physically but the business side then wrestling was easy by comparison, I didn't think I needed to explain that part to you.
Heres the thing did you know wrestling on national TV is what birthed the territories to what we knew them as? you know why national TV didn't kill wrestling back in the 50's? because they didn't expose the business, thats what Vince did both times wrestling hit a boom, he did it in the 80's and in 97 or 98 both times to get around Tax, athletic commissions or TV regulations, that's what killed wrestling, exposure of the business, but that happened several times all across the US and even Japan maybe, you know what happened? The promotions kept it up like they hadn't been exposed, after a rough patch from people going what it's fake oh fuck this, by treating it legit in the fans eyes they healed and people "forgot", since Vince did it in the 90's it hasn't ended people just went ok it's exposed now lets not care, that's what hurts wrestling, that's why the only things that sell huge is spectacle, unless you can get a programme that people buy as legit, people brought Joe Vs. Angle as legit enough and it did a huge buy for TNA back in the day, Lesnar was seen as legit for a long time so he spiked things, if it is treated with realism people buy into it and will pay to see stuff more, the lack of respect and kayfabe being broken so blatantly does hurt the business, the guys didn't start it but they are the ones continuing it.
And no guys breaking in had regular jobs and stuff but they weren't working full time jobs or several when they were wrestling 6-7 nights a week double shots on sundays and Saturdays some times when they may have been 6 hour trips one way, where did they have time to work full time jobs, guys worked sure but usually when they were hurt or when they were between gigs, which was rarer when they were top guys, and that's the thing TOP guys are having to have all this shit going on to make a few $100k a year we aren't talking about the open match jobbers, but the "main eventers", you keep trying to make these false comparisons whilst misconstruing my ones.
Boil it down to this outside of WWE now and WWWF/WWF and national TV JCP/WCW then if you compare any random 100 shows from any 2 years hell any 100 random shows from any year between the 1950's through 89, and the 100 highest attended shows in any calendar year held in the US, and averaged those numbers 99% chance the pre 90's random shows will win out, take the adjusted for inflation amount any 10 top guys back then made to the 10 actual highest paid guys now not including what they make in Japan or AEW again those random selection of guys will likely be making more or about the same at worst to the tip top guys make from everything not including AEW or Japan money, bottom line is wrestling was more popular, it drew better, top guys earned better and all they had to do was wrestle for it, not wrestle, perform stand up, do sketch shows, manage a merch store, do podcasting and donate at a sperm bank, they just wrestled and made so much they didn't need to think about working more, and they could be a average to below average IQ high school drop out with a wicked coke habit, which yeah the coke plus abundance of cash didn't always work out well but still my point stands.
Things are not better now, they just aren't because so few people in the business treat it with respect, if they did we would be in a better spot, that's not to say it had to be dull and boring and 100% sports, but stop with the wink and the nods and they zany stuff in the main events that would be considered too silly for Rick & Morty, but if you like it that's cool, I like it within reason in the right places, and I just hope we do see a tangible gain of popularity for wrestling going forward.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 18, 2019 21:35:50 GMT
Again, those territories centralized the audience. They flocked to the big shows. Similar to how AEW, GPW, Evolve, or New Japan has done. But there were still smaller local promotions that barely drew a hundred people. Those are the equivalent of the indie scene. That's how the average wrestler made a living. Doing the circuit between a bunch of smaller promotions for a payday that probably amounted to little more than enough gas money to hit the next town. And that's how the indie scene is working today. No wrestler has ever said wrestling was easy. They've said it was fun, but not easy. And it's unfair to blame the wrestlers for changing the business. The business is always changing. But the death of the territories was due to the WWF's ascension. The average fan's perception of wrestling is whatever their perception of WWE is. Not necessarily what the indie scene is. And no wrestler would say wrestling was easy. They'd say it was fun (there's that word again), but not easy. Being on the road five, six, or even seven days a week is not easy, no matter how much drugs, booze, or women there are. Saying it was easy is a disservice to the guys who gave their blood, sweat, and tears to the business. It's a hard job. It's a hard life. And true, the NFL does pay more. But that's ignoring that their pay has gone up over the decades, averaging maybe $50,000 a year in the 70s, to nearly $800,000 a year now. And believe me, if podcasts and youtube had been around in the 70's, all those guys would be investing their time in that. Why? Because it's another source of revenue. Money is the bottom line for prowrestling. Any wrestler worth his salt would jump at the chance to make more of it. And many of them did in fact run their own merch. Heck, the faces used to split their merch sales with the heels, so they could both make some good money. And that's exactly how it was for the average pro-wrestler during the territory days as well. Heck, Stone Cold has mentioned how he was working full time as a forklift operator while wrestling just to earn enough to make a living. Ok it used to be simple how about that if you want to be pedantic, wrestling used to be simple you wrestled and you made a shit load of money, yes it was a tough job and not everyone could do that, but considering we aren't talking about the grind of wrestling physically but the business side then wrestling was easy by comparison, I didn't think I needed to explain that part to you.
Heres the thing did you know wrestling on national TV is what birthed the territories to what we knew them as? you know why national TV didn't kill wrestling back in the 50's? because they didn't expose the business, thats what Vince did both times wrestling hit a boom, he did it in the 80's and in 97 or 98 both times to get around Tax, athletic commissions or TV regulations, that's what killed wrestling, exposure of the business, but that happened several times all across the US and even Japan maybe, you know what happened? The promotions kept it up like they hadn't been exposed, after a rough patch from people going what it's fake oh fuck this, by treating it legit in the fans eyes they healed and people "forgot", since Vince did it in the 90's it hasn't ended people just went ok it's exposed now lets not care, that's what hurts wrestling, that's why the only things that sell huge is spectacle, unless you can get a programme that people buy as legit, people brought Joe Vs. Angle as legit enough and it did a huge buy for TNA back in the day, Lesnar was seen as legit for a long time so he spiked things, if it is treated with realism people buy into it and will pay to see stuff more, the lack of respect and kayfabe being broken so blatantly does hurt the business, the guys didn't start it but they are the ones continuing it.
And no guys breaking in had regular jobs and stuff but they weren't working full time jobs or several when they were wrestling 6-7 nights a week double shots on sundays and Saturdays some times when they may have been 6 hour trips one way, where did they have time to work full time jobs, guys worked sure but usually when they were hurt or when they were between gigs, which was rarer when they were top guys, and that's the thing TOP guys are having to have all this shit going on to make a few $100k a year we aren't talking about the open match jobbers, but the "main eventers", you keep trying to make these false comparisons whilst misconstruing my ones.
Boil it down to this outside of WWE now and WWWF/WWF and national TV JCP/WCW then if you compare any random 100 shows from any 2 years hell any 100 random shows from any year between the 1950's through 89, and the 100 highest attended shows in any calendar year held in the US, and averaged those numbers 99% chance the pre 90's random shows will win out, take the adjusted for inflation amount any 10 top guys back then made to the 10 actual highest paid guys now not including what they make in Japan or AEW again those random selection of guys will likely be making more or about the same at worst to the tip top guys make from everything not including AEW or Japan money, bottom line is wrestling was more popular, it drew better, top guys earned better and all they had to do was wrestle for it, not wrestle, perform stand up, do sketch shows, manage a merch store, do podcasting and donate at a sperm bank, they just wrestled and made so much they didn't need to think about working more, and they could be a average to below average IQ high school drop out with a wicked coke habit, which yeah the coke plus abundance of cash didn't always work out well but still my point stands.
Things are not better now, they just aren't because so few people in the business treat it with respect, if they did we would be in a better spot, that's not to say it had to be dull and boring and 100% sports, but stop with the wink and the nods and they zany stuff in the main events that would be considered too silly for Rick & Morty, but if you like it that's cool, I like it within reason in the right places, and I just hope we do see a tangible gain of popularity for wrestling going forward. Easy with the tone, Dazz. I've been nothing but civil with you. In any case, even the business side wasn't easy. It's not easy to learn how to negotiate your worth to a promoter, particularly one you've never met. Or learn how to manage and budget your small pay offs. Learning how to live on only making $20 for a match, and that was a good pay day. Yes, I did know all that. Here's the thing: exposing the business did not kill wrestling. In the 80s and 90s when Vince exposed it, it boomed. Hulkamania and the Attitude Era are two of the biggest peak periods of wrestling popularity on a national and worldwide level. The exposure did not kill it. Anyone who was above a certain age already knew it for the theater of sports it was. Coming out and saying it's predetermined did not kill it at all. And again, comparing the top to the average is a faulty comparison. Of course the top guys didn't need to work another full time job. But the average guy and the low card guys did. And it's faulty to say the guys didn't have to do sketch shows. TNT was full of sketches. AWA, NWA, all had their sketches and backstage bits. Many of which included the top main event guys. And again, those are just the top guys you keep referring to. The average guys did have to manage their own merch, and had other jobs. And they would've loved to have other avenues for revenue like podcasts and youtube. And yes, they absolutely did have to think about working. The work never stops in pro-wrestling. We are fine. There are lots more areas to make money. Guys like Joey Ryan have proven so. And it doesn't have to come with a contract to AEW or any other promotion. There's money still being made. While you might not care for it as a fan, the business is still there and there is still money to be made. It's the same route as in the past. The territories are gone, but the hustle remains the same.
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Post by dazz on Sept 19, 2019 3:10:36 GMT
Ok it used to be simple how about that if you want to be pedantic, wrestling used to be simple you wrestled and you made a shit load of money, yes it was a tough job and not everyone could do that, but considering we aren't talking about the grind of wrestling physically but the business side then wrestling was easy by comparison, I didn't think I needed to explain that part to you.
Heres the thing did you know wrestling on national TV is what birthed the territories to what we knew them as? you know why national TV didn't kill wrestling back in the 50's? because they didn't expose the business, thats what Vince did both times wrestling hit a boom, he did it in the 80's and in 97 or 98 both times to get around Tax, athletic commissions or TV regulations, that's what killed wrestling, exposure of the business, but that happened several times all across the US and even Japan maybe, you know what happened? The promotions kept it up like they hadn't been exposed, after a rough patch from people going what it's fake oh fuck this, by treating it legit in the fans eyes they healed and people "forgot", since Vince did it in the 90's it hasn't ended people just went ok it's exposed now lets not care, that's what hurts wrestling, that's why the only things that sell huge is spectacle, unless you can get a programme that people buy as legit, people brought Joe Vs. Angle as legit enough and it did a huge buy for TNA back in the day, Lesnar was seen as legit for a long time so he spiked things, if it is treated with realism people buy into it and will pay to see stuff more, the lack of respect and kayfabe being broken so blatantly does hurt the business, the guys didn't start it but they are the ones continuing it.
And no guys breaking in had regular jobs and stuff but they weren't working full time jobs or several when they were wrestling 6-7 nights a week double shots on sundays and Saturdays some times when they may have been 6 hour trips one way, where did they have time to work full time jobs, guys worked sure but usually when they were hurt or when they were between gigs, which was rarer when they were top guys, and that's the thing TOP guys are having to have all this shit going on to make a few $100k a year we aren't talking about the open match jobbers, but the "main eventers", you keep trying to make these false comparisons whilst misconstruing my ones.
Boil it down to this outside of WWE now and WWWF/WWF and national TV JCP/WCW then if you compare any random 100 shows from any 2 years hell any 100 random shows from any year between the 1950's through 89, and the 100 highest attended shows in any calendar year held in the US, and averaged those numbers 99% chance the pre 90's random shows will win out, take the adjusted for inflation amount any 10 top guys back then made to the 10 actual highest paid guys now not including what they make in Japan or AEW again those random selection of guys will likely be making more or about the same at worst to the tip top guys make from everything not including AEW or Japan money, bottom line is wrestling was more popular, it drew better, top guys earned better and all they had to do was wrestle for it, not wrestle, perform stand up, do sketch shows, manage a merch store, do podcasting and donate at a sperm bank, they just wrestled and made so much they didn't need to think about working more, and they could be a average to below average IQ high school drop out with a wicked coke habit, which yeah the coke plus abundance of cash didn't always work out well but still my point stands.
Things are not better now, they just aren't because so few people in the business treat it with respect, if they did we would be in a better spot, that's not to say it had to be dull and boring and 100% sports, but stop with the wink and the nods and they zany stuff in the main events that would be considered too silly for Rick & Morty, but if you like it that's cool, I like it within reason in the right places, and I just hope we do see a tangible gain of popularity for wrestling going forward. Easy with the tone, Dazz. I've been nothing but civil with you. In any case, even the business side wasn't easy. It's not easy to learn how to negotiate your worth to a promoter, particularly one you've never met. Or learn how to manage and budget your small pay offs. Learning how to live on only making $20 for a match, and that was a good pay day. Yes, I did know all that. Here's the thing: exposing the business did not kill wrestling. In the 80s and 90s when Vince exposed it, it boomed. Hulkamania and the Attitude Era are two of the biggest peak periods of wrestling popularity on a national and worldwide level. The exposure did not kill it. Anyone who was above a certain age already knew it for the theater of sports it was. Coming out and saying it's predetermined did not kill it at all. And again, comparing the top to the average is a faulty comparison. Of course the top guys didn't need to work another full time job. But the average guy and the low card guys did. And it's faulty to say the guys didn't have to do sketch shows. TNT was full of sketches. AWA, NWA, all had their sketches and backstage bits. Many of which included the top main event guys. And again, those are just the top guys you keep referring to. The average guys did have to manage their own merch, and had other jobs. And they would've loved to have other avenues for revenue like podcasts and youtube. And yes, they absolutely did have to think about working. The work never stops in pro-wrestling. We are fine. There are lots more areas to make money. Guys like Joey Ryan have proven so. And it doesn't have to come with a contract to AEW or any other promotion. There's money still being made. While you might not care for it as a fan, the business is still there and there is still money to be made. It's the same route as in the past. The territories are gone, but the hustle remains the same. Oh dear god no, no average guys did not have to work second jobs only guys who couldn't get booked had to do that because they weren't being booked, otherwise you got paid, guys who couldn't get on the shows were either outlaws or rookies, which also meant they were getting preliminary money also, anyone working regularly didn't need to work other jobs nor could they because they were wrestling 6-8 times a week having to drive 3-5 hours from here to there if it was short, sometimes as much as 8 for some shows, be there an hour before bell time and not leave until the show was over and then driving back or to the next town, you couldn't work a job and wrestle everyday, yeah some guys did stuff to make more money, one thing was less paid guys would drive the stars for 10 cents per mile or whatever, have a cooler of drinks and food and sell them for $1 or $2 a pop so they didn't need to stop at a store, but this is like open match guys, but still they were making like $200-300 a week wrestling opening matches which is the equivalent of $450-700 today or so, and they would make another $200 or so with driving and stuff, but again this wasn't the norm for most guys because the way they did this was pile 4-5 guys in a car and each guy paid like 2 cents a mile or whatever but that was 1 guy in the car and this wasn't in every car so like 2 or 3 guys in the territory did it, or they weren't even regular guys they were local guys who occasionally wrestled but they were smart so they did this as a way to earn a living whilst trying to be wrestlers, they again would be the guys working a handful to maybe 10 times a month as jobbers, not any of the regular rosters.
Guys running their merch back in the day wasn't huge I don't think till the later 80's as that's when that shit started to sink in that hey merch is profitable lets sell shit, but the stuff they did then compared to now is night and day, it was like 200 8x10's they got made for $30 at a copy place and polaroids with fans at events, it wasn't 6 different shirts with unique designs, coffee mugs, mouse mats, beanies, socks and key rings like today, they sold merch but not like now by either the scope of the merch they offered or who they sold to, a lot of these guys their secondary income is probably their primary work load.
People working regular jobs also became a thing when the territories died out because when there was 25-30 territories that was 800-1000 spots for guys to work regularly and make money, when that shrunk within a decade to 5-6 full time promotions suddenly 800-1000 spots shrunk to 300-350 and guys had to rely on independents which would mostly run weekends, so over half to maybe even 2 thirds of the guys went from full time wrestlers to part time wrestlers, this is why they had to have jobs because they weren't working most days anyway nor making enough when they did to cover all their bills.
Also if you think exposure doesn't hurt wrestling think again it happened several times in wrestling's history it always nuked the business except with Vince because Vince wasn't selling himself as a sport but as a circus, notice how within a few years of outing the business as fake all the other companies ended up shutting down? as for people not believing it, tell that to the fuckers who soaked knives in pig fat and sliced the wrestlers to cause infections, to the guys who literally tried to shoot Bobby Heenan, the people who shot draino out of squirt bottles in the eyes of heels, who threw bricks, bottle and anything else off of balconies at heels through most of the 80's, people believed it mate, they just did, now no one does and it hurts things.
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Post by Jayman on Sept 19, 2019 16:54:19 GMT
no they are not actors. You just illustrated one of the biggest problems. Scripts written out for guys and people memorizing lines and guys thinking they need acting lessons. You don’t really believe that that’s how things were done in the past do you? It was never rocket science or theatre. All that was needed was a few verbal instructions And regardless of how it was done in the past, Bret Hart still referred to himself as an actor, even at the height of his career. They are actors. They're paid to entertain with melodramatic stories and go through choreographed combat while displaying emotions they aren't necessarily feeling. That's what an actor does. That's literally the description of the MCU. Wrestlers play a part. Glenn Jacobs wasn't really in a house fire as a kid that killed his parents. Mick Foley didn't have his hands smashed during childhood piano lessons. But that was their characters' backstories. And they acted those roles. And even back then with the few verbal instructions, that's improv. Something else that actors participate in. It's acting. It's theater. It's sports exhibition. Pro-wrestling is that all rolled into one unique form of entertainment. There's no shame in it. yes in the wwf they want actors and comedians
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Post by Jayman on Sept 19, 2019 17:12:36 GMT
He's comparing the territories to the indy shows because you made the suggestion of how huge wrestling is now because there's a few indies that can draw. Yes there were indepedents in the 70's and 80's that drew 100 people and ran in small armories, but the point being is that there were also over 2 dozen territories that ran every night and drew thousands. Now there is not. That is the whole point. What a select few guys that have developed their name and are able to make money on the indy scene is not the same thing as what territories were like. It's not like anybody can make a success with hard work and hustle. Whether or not people have to flock to one promotion has nothing to do with anything. You're right. There aren't 2 dozen top territories. But there are dozens of indie feds holding shows on any given night of the week. Again, the indies don't compare to the top territories. But they do compare to the smaller local promotions that have always been around. Those smaller promotions were as much a part of the wrestling landscape as the top territories. The wrestlers themselves have said so. It was those small promotions that helped keep them working and employed before they could make it to the bigger venues. That is how wrestling has always been. Even at the height of the territory days. The vast majority of guys never ended up on tv. Or if they did, they were litter more than a jobber.
Actually, that's exactly what it is. Rather than fans in north Texas flocking to Dallas for the latest WCCW show, they mostly stay in their home towns and go to local shows.
Hardly anybody is running independent shows during the week. If you can name me more than 3 of them I'll be shocked. There may be a couple that couldn't get a building on the weekend that does that. Think about it, most indies run once or twice a month. They depend on those shows to draw. You really think they are going to have the few shows they have on a weekday and get the least amount of people? Indies are Friday and Saturday with some on sunday afternoons. Basically nobody is running during the week. The indies of the 70's and 80's were a part of the landscape on a smaller level with mostly guys that were doing jobs on tv or they couldn't cut it as job guys on tv. That and some guys just breaking in or some older guys that never made it. It was not the same thing as now where the overwhelming majority of the guys in the business are only doing indies because there is no place else for them to work. Nobody was making a living doing outlaw shows. It was a way to gain some experience. Anybody that was half way decent was not going to spend a decade doing outlaw and indy shows like they do now because they have no choice. people that trained somebody in that period had already worked places and can get a guy in places. Unlike now where trainers are guys that never did anything but work shows in their local vfw and never even have been on tv. As far as the vast majority of guys never making it to tv, there were guys doing jobs on the weekends for 50 bucks that were horrible. You didn't have to be that good to get on tv and there were dozens of places to work. Most top names started out doing jobs on tv. The reason fans in Dallas stay in their home towns is because there is no wrestling worth traveling for for most people. If you add up every single fan that goes to indy shows on any given weekend in Dallas and the surrounding areas I would bet it wouldn't add up to 1200 people total. Combine Friday and Saturday and World Class averaged over 12,000 people every weekend. False comparison
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 19, 2019 17:18:22 GMT
And regardless of how it was done in the past, Bret Hart still referred to himself as an actor, even at the height of his career. They are actors. They're paid to entertain with melodramatic stories and go through choreographed combat while displaying emotions they aren't necessarily feeling. That's what an actor does. That's literally the description of the MCU. Wrestlers play a part. Glenn Jacobs wasn't really in a house fire as a kid that killed his parents. Mick Foley didn't have his hands smashed during childhood piano lessons. But that was their characters' backstories. And they acted those roles. And even back then with the few verbal instructions, that's improv. Something else that actors participate in. It's acting. It's theater. It's sports exhibition. Pro-wrestling is that all rolled into one unique form of entertainment. There's no shame in it. yes in the wwf they want actors and comedians Not just WWF. Check out what AEW, New Japan, and AAA have been doing for decades.
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Post by Jayman on Sept 19, 2019 17:20:49 GMT
yes in the wwf they want actors and comedians Not just WWF. Check out what AEW, New Japan, and AAA have been doing for decades. which basically proves my point. That is the whole problem. New Japan has been doing comedy for decades? Yes AAA has always had comedy spots in the course of a match. Which is very different then the type of comedy we see today.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 19, 2019 17:27:51 GMT
You're right. There aren't 2 dozen top territories. But there are dozens of indie feds holding shows on any given night of the week. Again, the indies don't compare to the top territories. But they do compare to the smaller local promotions that have always been around. Those smaller promotions were as much a part of the wrestling landscape as the top territories. The wrestlers themselves have said so. It was those small promotions that helped keep them working and employed before they could make it to the bigger venues. That is how wrestling has always been. Even at the height of the territory days. The vast majority of guys never ended up on tv. Or if they did, they were litter more than a jobber.
Actually, that's exactly what it is. Rather than fans in north Texas flocking to Dallas for the latest WCCW show, they mostly stay in their home towns and go to local shows.
Hardly anybody is running independent shows during the week. If you can name me more than 3 of them I'll be shocked. There may be a couple that couldn't get a building on the weekend that does that. Think about it, most indies run once or twice a month. They depend on those shows to draw. You really think they are going to have the few shows they have on a weekday and get the least amount of people? Indies are Friday and Saturday with some on sunday afternoons. Basically nobody is running during the week. The indies of the 70's and 80's were a part of the landscape on a smaller level with mostly guys that were doing jobs on tv or they couldn't cut it as job guys on tv. That and some guys just breaking in or some older guys that never made it. It was not the same thing as now where the overwhelming majority of the guys in the business are only doing indies because there is no place else for them to work. Nobody was making a living doing outlaw shows. It was a way to gain some experience. Anybody that was half way decent was not going to spend a decade doing outlaw and indy shows like they do now because they have no choice. people that trained somebody in that period had already worked places and can get a guy in places. Unlike now where trainers are guys that never did anything but work shows in their local vfw and never even have been on tv. As far as the vast majority of guys never making it to tv, there were guys doing jobs on the weekends for 50 bucks that were horrible. You didn't have to be that good to get on tv and there were dozens of places to work. Most top names started out doing jobs on tv. The reason fans in Dallas stay in their home towns is because there is no wrestling worth traveling for for most people. If you add up every single fan that goes to indy shows on any given weekend in Dallas and the surrounding areas I would bet it wouldn't add up to 1200 people total. Combine Friday and Saturday and World Class averaged over 12,000 people every weekend. False comparison True, most indies don't run on weekdays, but some do. Heck, there are several in Texas holding weekday shows in October. It's all about getting out there. There were plenty of guys who spent a decade working the outlaw shows. That's the nature of the business. There isn't room for everyone at the top and there isn't room for everyone on tv. And that's a false number for World Class. The Sportatorium barely held 4,000 people. No way they could do 12,000 on just a weekend.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 19, 2019 17:30:23 GMT
Not just WWF. Check out what AEW, New Japan, and AAA have been doing for decades. which basically proves my point. That is the whole problem. New Japan has been doing comedy for decades? Yes AAA has always had comedy spots in the course of a match. Which is very different then the type of comedy we see today. That's not a problem. It's a part of wrestling that's always been around. And yes, New Japan has been doing comedy for decades. Comedy is a part of wrestling. And it's not all that different from what we see now a days. It's still slapstick with over the top acting in weird skits. Whether you care for it or not is irrelevant. It's a part of the wrestling landscape.
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Post by Jayman on Sept 19, 2019 17:35:52 GMT
Hardly anybody is running independent shows during the week. If you can name me more than 3 of them I'll be shocked. There may be a couple that couldn't get a building on the weekend that does that. Think about it, most indies run once or twice a month. They depend on those shows to draw. You really think they are going to have the few shows they have on a weekday and get the least amount of people? Indies are Friday and Saturday with some on sunday afternoons. Basically nobody is running during the week. The indies of the 70's and 80's were a part of the landscape on a smaller level with mostly guys that were doing jobs on tv or they couldn't cut it as job guys on tv. That and some guys just breaking in or some older guys that never made it. It was not the same thing as now where the overwhelming majority of the guys in the business are only doing indies because there is no place else for them to work. Nobody was making a living doing outlaw shows. It was a way to gain some experience. Anybody that was half way decent was not going to spend a decade doing outlaw and indy shows like they do now because they have no choice. people that trained somebody in that period had already worked places and can get a guy in places. Unlike now where trainers are guys that never did anything but work shows in their local vfw and never even have been on tv. As far as the vast majority of guys never making it to tv, there were guys doing jobs on the weekends for 50 bucks that were horrible. You didn't have to be that good to get on tv and there were dozens of places to work. Most top names started out doing jobs on tv. The reason fans in Dallas stay in their home towns is because there is no wrestling worth traveling for for most people. If you add up every single fan that goes to indy shows on any given weekend in Dallas and the surrounding areas I would bet it wouldn't add up to 1200 people total. Combine Friday and Saturday and World Class averaged over 12,000 people every weekend. False comparison True, most indies don't run on weekdays, but some do. Heck, there are several in Texas holding weekday shows in October. It's all about getting out there. There were plenty of guys who spent a decade working the outlaw shows. That's the nature of the business. There isn't room for everyone at the top and there isn't room for everyone on tv. And that's a false number for World Class. The Sportatorium barely held 4,000 people. No way they could do 12,000 on just a weekend. Several independents running weekday shows? I would like to see evidence. Yes there were guys that spent a decade on outlaws. The ones that weren't any good and the ones that couldn't cut it as job guys on tv. The sportatorium held a little over 4,000. I was combining the Friday show along with Fort Worth Saturday and whatever spot show they ran on Sunday. I didn't say there were 12,000 fans in the sportatorium. That territory centered everything around 4-6 big events a year and the rest were the weekend shows that were the next to biggest ones
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Post by Jayman on Sept 19, 2019 17:38:38 GMT
which basically proves my point. That is the whole problem. New Japan has been doing comedy for decades? Yes AAA has always had comedy spots in the course of a match. Which is very different then the type of comedy we see today. That's not a problem. It's a part of wrestling that's always been around. And yes, New Japan has been doing comedy for decades. Comedy is a part of wrestling. And it's not all that different from what we see now a days. It's still slapstick with over the top acting in weird skits. Whether you care for it or not is irrelevant. It's a part of the wrestling landscape. I watched New Japan up until the early 2,000's. I don't watch it now, but they were not doing slapstick comedy at that time or anytime before that. I don't know what kind of comedy you were referring to. Yes, people did comedy spots in the course of a match in all promotions here and there. That is not the kind of comedy I take issue with
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