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Post by goz on Aug 22, 2019 9:35:19 GMT
for the way that the Catholic Church has shielded criminals and paedophiles from secular law?
It seems incomprehensible that allegedly moral Catholics didn't put pressure on their church hierarchy to take action when their fellow parishioners of the most vulnerable kind were violated.
Can someone explain this to me, please?
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Post by geode on Aug 22, 2019 10:29:51 GMT
for the way that the Catholic Church has shielded criminals and paedophiles from secular law? It seems incomprehensible that allegedly moral Catholics didn't put pressure on their church hierarchy to take action when their fellow parishioners of the most vulnerable kind were violated. Can someone explain this to me, please? I am not keen on sweeping generalities. The way you have worded this no rank and file Catholics complained about the transgressions of errant priests. Undoubtedly some have done do in multiple places through the years. I am more familiar with the situation in the Mormon church, where some men in leadership positions and contact with the youth committed similar transgressions as Catholic priests. I have read of similar problems in the Baptist Church and other faiths. In instances in the Mormon church some committing crimes were shielded by the leadership above them. This is not just a Catholic problem. Some of the rank and file Mormons have complained about what has happened and had church lawyers attempt to discredit their stories. Some have been excommunicated, some have left the church over what is happening. Sometimes it is the victims and their supporters who get blamed by church authorities. I'll bet some of the same has happened in Catholic circles. The complaints by LDS members, and members who have left over these matters have caused top leadership to react and improve procedures to lessen the chance of men being able to molest children. Unfortunately the leadership takes credit for the changes or even day that God revealed the changes. It is difficult for very believing individuals to find fault in their religious leaders, who they have been taught to follow without questioning. Churches act defensively and try to protect their image. This is human nature, but covering up serious troubles ultimately does not do right by the organizations in question.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 22, 2019 10:36:46 GMT
No although they should have went to police.
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Post by kls on Aug 22, 2019 10:53:56 GMT
No although they should have went to police. I certainly would have if I had any information about a particular clergy member.
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Post by Isapop on Aug 22, 2019 11:26:35 GMT
Victims and their families were pressured by church (Catholic or otherwise) leaders to remain silent, so the membership at large was ignorant of what was happening until the media began reporting. What I find noteworthy these days is that there are, among the laity, a good number who seem much more offended at the reporting than they are at the cover ups.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 22, 2019 11:33:47 GMT
The coverage feels like universal condemnation while the cover-up is not.
Most priests are guilty of nothing except maybe confidentiality of confessions and trusting their cardinals but it sure does feel like all of them are boinking kids once "media" gets done with them.
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Post by Pangolin on Aug 22, 2019 12:49:18 GMT
I think it's quite telling if the news are full of very old abuse cases. You can't tell me that there is no anti-Catholic agenda involved.
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Post by Isapop on Aug 22, 2019 15:44:31 GMT
I think it's quite telling if the news are full of very old abuse cases. You can't tell me that there is no anti-Catholic agenda involved. Aw, sure we can. When an abuse case is unknown because it was covered up for decades, you don't give the concealers a reward by not reporting when they're found out. Refusing to join the cover up is not anti-Catholic bias. (But your comment illustrates what I said in my first post.)
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 22, 2019 16:30:00 GMT
The coverage feels like universal condemnation while the cover-up is not. Most priests are guilty of nothing except maybe confidentiality of confessions and trusting their cardinals but it sure does feel like all of them are boinking kids once "media" gets done with them. Is this verifying my point or disagreeing with it? |
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Post by Pangolin on Aug 22, 2019 17:26:10 GMT
I think it's quite telling if the news are full of very old abuse cases. You can't tell me that there is no anti-Catholic agenda involved. Aw, sure we can. When an abuse case is unknown because it was covered up for decades, you don't give the concealers a reward by not reporting when they're found out. Refusing to join the cover up is not anti-Catholic bias. (But your comment illustrates what I said in my first post.)
You should see some Muslims jumping the bandwagon although their circumcision rituals are a phenomenon that violate children's rights on a much bigger scale than these abuse scandals collected from various decades.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 22, 2019 17:43:03 GMT
Is this verifying my point or disagreeing with it? It’s a list of NCR (a Catholic Magazine) with pending abuse cases...most against the hierarchy. This thing is not over for Catholics. And slamming the Church for their obvious choice of evil for decades does not put down Catholic theological teachings. Right. If it brings down the church it brings it down anyway. My point is that most Catholics don’t encounter kiddy diddlers among their clergy and they also understand the notion of confessions being between the priest and contrite alone. There would be no reason for them to be upset about a known tenet. However if they are in a church and knew then they should have reported the crime themselves. It’s just not a common occurrence and even in places where it did occur, they may have held back because they were told not to which would still not make them too culpable if they truly believed eternal punishment was the result. I’m not Catholic. |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Aug 22, 2019 17:50:12 GMT
This is another thread designed to open a can of worms, from the same poster who wants all of us to bear the responsibility for manmade "global warming" simply because we're here.
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Post by Isapop on Aug 22, 2019 18:07:18 GMT
Aw, sure we can. When an abuse case is unknown because it was covered up for decades, you don't give the concealers a reward by not reporting when they're found out. Refusing to join the cover up is not anti-Catholic bias. (But your comment illustrates what I said in my first post.)
You should see some Muslims jumping the bandwagon although their circumcision rituals are a phenomenon that violate children's rights on a much bigger scale than these abuse scandals collected from various decades. You mean there are Muslims who point to the CC scandal to distract from the offenses of their own religion?
I guess that happens. After all, I'm witnessing that exact thing happening right now, only in reverse.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 22, 2019 18:17:36 GMT
Right. If it brings down the church it brings it down anyway. My point is that most Catholics don’t encounter kiddy diddlers among their clergy and they also understand the notion of confessions being between the priest and contrite alone. There would be no reason for them to be upset about a known tenet. However if they are in a church and knew then they should have reported the crime themselves. It’s just not a common occurrence and even in places where it did occur, they may have held back because they were told not to which would still not make them too culpable if they truly believed eternal punishment was the result. I’m not Catholic. You’re correct, most laity did not know and prior to Vatican II, “good” Catholics did not dare to openly question the Church. However, now they don’t have an excuse. Right. Once they know of abuse they should report it and especially now since the church is telling them to do it too. |
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Post by maya55555 on Aug 22, 2019 20:06:03 GMT
No although they should have went to police. Many Catholics did go to the police. This, by my memory goes back to the1960s. They were met with a stone wall.
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Post by goz on Aug 22, 2019 21:14:01 GMT
for the way that the Catholic Church has shielded criminals and paedophiles from secular law? It seems incomprehensible that allegedly moral Catholics didn't put pressure on their church hierarchy to take action when their fellow parishioners of the most vulnerable kind were violated. Can someone explain this to me, please? I am not keen on sweeping generalities. The way you have worded this no rank and file Catholics complained about the transgressions of errant priests. Undoubtedly some have done do in multiple places through the years. I am more familiar with the situation in the Mormon church, where some men in leadership positions and contact with the youth committed similar transgressions as Catholic priests. I have read of similar problems in the Baptist Church and other faiths. In instances in the Mormon church some committing crimes were shielded by the leadership above them. This is not just a Catholic problem. Some of the rank and file Mormons have complained about what has happened and had church lawyers attempt to discredit their stories. Some have been excommunicated, some have left the church over what is happening. Sometimes it is the victims and their supporters who get blamed by church authorities. I'll bet some of the same has happened in Catholic circles. The complaints by LDS members, and members who have left over these matters have caused top leadership to react and improve procedures to lessen the chance of men being able to molest children. Unfortunately the leadership takes credit for the changes or even day that God revealed the changes. It is difficult for very believing individuals to find fault in their religious leaders, who they have been taught to follow without questioning. Churches act defensively and try to protect their image. This is human nature, but covering up serious troubles ultimately does not do right by the organizations in question. That is a very interesting and 'almost' believable viewpoint. To me it just re-enforces the power of hierarchies in churches, and the level of delusion in the laity. Just one of the many reasons I am an agnostic atheist and have no wish to be associated with ANY quasi atheist movement if there were such a thing. I am sure you are right, yet it amazes me that there was not and is not, a greater uprising amongst the laity now that these matters are open knowledge. Catholics STILL support their church and give any manner of special pleading for things that were and still are endemic in the Catholic ( and other) churches. Witness the Vatican wishing to 'handle' ( pardon the pun) the case of Cardinal George Pell 'in house' with little credence to the fact that he is in jail in Australia a convicted criminal and paedophile. To me it sucks donkey balls.
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Post by goz on Aug 22, 2019 21:15:03 GMT
No although they should have went to police. So, yes, then?
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Post by goz on Aug 22, 2019 21:16:49 GMT
No although they should have went to police. I certainly would have if I had any information about a particular clergy member. Yes, kls, you have always been a stanch supporter of your church, though with a pragmatism that is healthy. Why did you think that other parishioners didn't?
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Post by goz on Aug 22, 2019 21:21:17 GMT
Victims and their families were pressured by church (Catholic or otherwise) leaders to remain silent, so the membership at large was ignorant of what was happening until the media began reporting. What I find noteworthy these days is that there are, among the laity, a good number who seem much more offended at the reporting than they are at the cover ups. ...and this is the point of this thread. Do you think that there is any sense of embarrassment that the laity has been so quiet for so long? IMHO there should be. Some, however seem to subscribe to the infallibility and sanctity of their OWN church which is precious to THEM, so it is an ego thing. IF you believe that your church and its hierarchy is fallible, your whole religious world could seem on shaky foundations. Better not to shake the foundations?
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Post by goz on Aug 22, 2019 21:28:31 GMT
The coverage feels like universal condemnation while the cover-up is not. Most priests are guilty of nothing except maybe confidentiality of confessions and trusting their cardinals but it sure does feel like all of them are boinking kids once "media" gets done with them. So, you think that Catholic (or any church) hierarchy endemically buggering little boys and it being hidden for years, decades and even centuries is not worth universal condemnation for those crimes and that those who covered them up are not guilty of some responsibility for this behaviour being enabled to continue unabated? It is interesting that most priests were content to put the welfare of other criminal cardinals and priests and their church, over the interest of crimes against the youth they were supposed to protect? And this is moral and just? Has the media ever implied that all priests are guilty of this despicable behaviour? No. It is just people like you making excuses for the individuals involved, the hierarchies' failures and this Church being rotten to the core.
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