fatpaul
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@fatpaul
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Post by fatpaul on Aug 27, 2019 7:05:12 GMT
Even though I'm not convinced by this, I do struggle to explain that conundrum. The best I can do is just assume there is an explanation of some sort that doesn't involve an intelligent creator. Advocates for finely tuned constant values point to the neutrino's mass at a constant 5e-35 kg and say that if it was 5e-34 kg, the universe would've collapse before life got started and if it was 5e-36 kg, then the universe would've expanded too quickly for life to form. They're right according to modern physics but wrong if they think the neutrino is finely tuned; it's only fine-tuned relative to kilograms. Neutrinos are so tiny that measuring in kilograms is like measuring Michael Jordan's height in light years, which would be 2e-16 ly. If Jordan was 2e-15 ly, he would be a little over 7 inches and if he was 2e-17 ly he would be 59ft tall. Jordan could've been half a foot (7% original height) either way, and still been a capable basketball player and just like Jordan's 7% leeway each way, neutrinos can be 5% of their original mass either way and still be capable of the life you see today. Not so finely tuned after all and if indeed precision is to be taken as an hallmark of intelligence then it is ridiculous because I consider myself to be not very intelligent (but yet I can still conceive of something more precise, a 1% leeway for example). If considering an intelligent designer then I’d say that the universe is structured like a garden with the black holes being flower-like and the surrounding stars being petal-like, with life being nothing more than aphid-like. Now of course, black holes being the intent of an intelligent designer is just as ridiculous as life being intentional but herein lies the problem of metaphysical deeper questions(why mass/energy/particles/etc, or, why something rather than nothing) in that we're just finding bad reasons for things we believe on instinct (to paraphrase F.H. Bradley). The bottom line being that it is we that crave meaning and purpose to things and it is we that demand explanations but the universe cares not for such things. We may ask such questions but it doesn’t imply that they are of any ontological import, so it’s no surprise that I find any and all arguments for theism ridiculous.
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Post by itsmagic on Aug 27, 2019 7:18:16 GMT
just to give you scale. the number of protons in the Known universe is about 10^80. the fine tuning is on the order of 10^120 !!!
behold the hand of God
I did not take the idea that all the electrons were the same one from [Wheeler] as seriously as I took the observation that positrons could simply be represented as electrons going from the future to the past in a back section of their world lines. That, I stole. - Richard Feynman. we can only detect what is within our light cone - traveling less than the speed of light.
when the universe began - ex nihilo in the original language,
- out of nothing -
space itself expanded faster than the speed of light.
anything that EVER traveled faster than the speed of light will FOREVER travel faster than the speed of light.
perhaps it's moving back in time.
somehow we can only detect about 5% of all the matter & energy that exists.
(these things of which we are composed).
the remaining *** 95 % *** is what we call "statistically significant".
we can only infer it's presence from other things.
perhaps logically then it's "out of our light cone".
the other solutions of Maxwell's equations for waves and light.
propagating forwards and backwards in time as Feynman imagined for electrons and positrons.
like the other side of the mirror for Alice in wonderland.
space itself enfolded at every point in space in higher dimensions.
quantum fields.
the waveform that holds everything together.
fabric of the universe
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Post by itsmagic on Aug 27, 2019 7:59:29 GMT
just to give you scale. the number of protons in the Known universe is about 10^80. the fine tuning is on the order of 10^120 !!!
behold the hand of God
No matter the scale of the numbers, it is still the same old bog standard boring 'God of the Gaps' argument!
now the serpent was more cunning than any other beast of the field - "has God said ?"
"for God knows that the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened,
and you will be like God , knowing good and evil"
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes,
lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them".
" he who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him -
the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day".
scripture
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Post by goz on Aug 27, 2019 8:42:00 GMT
No matter the scale of the numbers, it is still the same old bog standard boring 'God of the Gaps' argument!
now the serpent was more cunning than any other beast of the field - "has God said ?"
"for God knows that the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened,
and you will be like God , knowing good and evil"
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes,
lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them".
" he who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him -
the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day".
scripture
Jumbo Mumbo Jumbo
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Post by itsmagic on Aug 27, 2019 9:25:58 GMT
now the serpent was more cunning than any other beast of the field - "has God said ?"
"for God knows that the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened,
and you will be like God , knowing good and evil"
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes,
lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them".
" he who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him -
the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day".
scripture
Jumbo Mumbo Jumbo so you DON"T KNOW ENOUGH SCIENCE TO COMPREHEND what was said.
you KNOW NOTHING of the greatest book of ALL TIME.
this looks like you & your COLOSSAL EGO OF IGNORANCE
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Post by rizdek on Aug 27, 2019 10:07:19 GMT
Why does the universe look the way it does at all...with protons, electrons and neutrons, elements, stars and planets? Without a couple dozen constants being what they are to a very high level of precision, physicists conjecture that the universe would have none of these recognizable structures. One can imagine a universe full of some sort of galactic-scale hyper-intelligent quark clouds, musing that "if the physical constants had been just a little different, why the universe wouldn't exist in any recognisable form at all! Everything would be condensed into weird collections of particles, clumping up in super-dense lumps of... let's call it ' matter', shall we? Why, quark clouds wouldn't be possible and life as we know it couldn't exist at all! There must be some kind of design to this..." In other words, marvelling that the universe turned out the way it did presumes that the way it turned out is somehow special and better than other ways, rather than just different. And hell, for that matter is there any reason at all to suppose that any of the physical constants even could have been any different? Your final statement aligns with what I have been thinking...in my massive and superior knowledge of physics (LOL). I wonder if the background existence (whatever that is) randomly throws together these constants. IF they aren't just so, nothing happens, no universe emerges. But when they are "just so" a universe much like the one we see around us materializes and expands. When a universe doesn't materialize that background existence immediately "tries" again and again and again until the constants are just so. These repeated attempts can go on so there is no problem assuming that those conditions are rare because time itself doesn't really emerge until they are just so. It's a little like natural selection in that if things aren't just right, the embryonic universe simply doesn't emerge.
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Post by rizdek on Aug 27, 2019 10:22:10 GMT
Even though I'm not convinced by this, I do struggle to explain that conundrum. The best I can do is just assume there is an explanation of some sort that doesn't involve an intelligent creator. Advocates for finely tuned constant values point to the neutrino's mass at a constant 5e-35 kg and say that if it was 5e-34 kg, the universe would've collapse before life got started and if it was 5e-36 kg, then the universe would've expanded too quickly for life to form. They're right according to modern physics but wrong if they think the neutrino is finely tuned; it's only fine-tuned relative to kilograms. Neutrinos are so tiny that measuring in kilograms is like measuring Michael Jordan's height in light years, which would be 2e-16 ly. If Jordan was 2e-15 ly, he would be a little over 7 inches and if he was 2e-17 ly he would be 59ft tall. Jordan could've been half a foot (7% original height) either way, and still been a capable basketball player and just like Jordan's 7% leeway each way, neutrinos can be 5% of their original mass either way and still be capable of the life you see today. Not so finely tuned after all and if indeed precision is to be taken as an hallmark of intelligence then it is ridiculous because I consider myself to be not very intelligent (but yet I can still conceive of something more precise, a 1% leeway for example). If considering an intelligent designer then I’d say that the universe is structured like a garden with the black holes being flower-like and the surrounding stars being petal-like, with life being nothing more than aphid-like. Now of course, black holes being the intent of an intelligent designer is just as ridiculous as life being intentional but herein lies the problem of metaphysical deeper questions(why mass/energy/particles/etc, or, why something rather than nothing) in that we're just finding bad reasons for things we believe on instinct (to paraphrase F.H. Bradley). The bottom line being that it is we that crave meaning and purpose to things and it is we that demand explanations but the universe cares not for such things. We may ask such questions but it doesn’t imply that they are of any ontological import, so it’s no surprise that I find any and all arguments for theism ridiculous. But you're right. If such things or such a thing exists, it would likely be nothing like what anyone who imagines a god caring about humans thinks. There's be no more point of humans believing in/worshiping/praying to it than if the bacteria in my bathtub tried to organize cheer leading chorus lines for me. I could care less and would wipe them away in my efforts to keep the tub clean. A god might be more interested in exploring ways black holes can form and how long they last than whether some insignificant ape evolved on a small rock near a star that never will form a black hole.
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Post by itsmagic on Aug 27, 2019 11:11:49 GMT
One can imagine a universe full of some sort of galactic-scale hyper-intelligent quark clouds, musing that "if the physical constants had been just a little different, why the universe wouldn't exist in any recognisable form at all! Everything would be condensed into weird collections of particles, clumping up in super-dense lumps of... let's call it ' matter', shall we? Why, quark clouds wouldn't be possible and life as we know it couldn't exist at all! There must be some kind of design to this..." In other words, marvelling that the universe turned out the way it did presumes that the way it turned out is somehow special and better than other ways, rather than just different. And hell, for that matter is there any reason at all to suppose that any of the physical constants even could have been any different? Your final statement aligns with what I have been thinking...in my massive and superior knowledge of physics (LOL). I wonder if the background existence (whatever that is) randomly throws together these constants. IF they aren't just so, nothing happens, no universe emerges. But when they are "just so" a universe much like the one we see around us materializes and expands. When a universe doesn't materialize that background existence immediately "tries" again and again and again until the constants are just so. These repeated attempts can go on so there is no problem assuming that those conditions are rare because time itself doesn't really emerge until they are just so. It's a little like natural selection in that if things aren't just right, the embryonic universe simply doesn't emerge. are you more convinced of bubble nucleation or the many worlds interpretation ?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2019 11:38:08 GMT
One can imagine a universe full of some sort of galactic-scale hyper-intelligent quark clouds, musing that "if the physical constants had been just a little different, why the universe wouldn't exist in any recognisable form at all! Everything would be condensed into weird collections of particles, clumping up in super-dense lumps of... let's call it ' matter', shall we? Why, quark clouds wouldn't be possible and life as we know it couldn't exist at all! There must be some kind of design to this..." In other words, marvelling that the universe turned out the way it did presumes that the way it turned out is somehow special and better than other ways, rather than just different. And hell, for that matter is there any reason at all to suppose that any of the physical constants even could have been any different?
just to give you scale. the number of protons in the Known universe is about 10^80. the fine tuning is on the order of 10^120 !!! Again : the idea that the universe is 'fine tuned' at all is mere speculation.
Do you have any reason to think it's 'the hand of god' at all, or is it just what you want to be true?
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Post by itsmagic on Aug 27, 2019 11:59:02 GMT
just to give you scale. the number of protons in the Known universe is about 10^80. the fine tuning is on the order of 10^120 !!! Again : the idea that the universe is 'fine tuned' at all is mere speculation.
Do you have any reason to think it's 'the hand of god' at all, or is it just what you want to be true? such "fine tuning" is beyond any geometric progression of cosmic random accidents. in the beginning (from eternity past,time)
God (first cause)created (force, energy) the heavens and the earth(space, mass, matter). believing such magnificent perfection
arises from sheer chance requires more faith than believing in a Supreme Being who has made Himself Known
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2019 12:08:49 GMT
Again : the idea that the universe is 'fine tuned' at all is mere speculation.
Do you have any reason to think it's 'the hand of god' at all, or is it just what you want to be true? such "fine tuning" is beyond any geometric progression of cosmic random accidents. But there's no reason to suppose that randomness is involved. You're using one assumption to justify another assumption. I asked if you have any reason to believe that this is true. Simply saying it over again isn't a reason. I could as easily say "there is no god" and when asked how I know, just repeat "because there is no god."
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Post by itsmagic on Aug 27, 2019 12:33:36 GMT
such "fine tuning" is beyond any geometric progression of cosmic random accidents. But there's no reason to suppose that randomness is involved. You're using one assumption to justify another assumption. I asked if you have any reason to believe that this is true. Simply saying it over again isn't a reason. I could as easily say "there is no god" and when asked how I know, just repeat "because there is no god."
some want to think it is just a "big bang", some explosion of "stuff". i don't believe it is random at all. the All Powerful Creator
Spoke it into Existence - Out of Nothing !! the cosmic Order is the Most Carefully Crafted Masterpiece in our universe.
He stepped out of Eternity to show us Powers over All the forces of nature. stilled storms, restored sight to the blind, raised the dead,
walked through walls in a Resurrected body. nothing was impossible for Him. things beyond human comprehension
demonstrated for us to believe He IS the Son of God through Whom All things Exist
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2019 13:30:44 GMT
some want to think it is just a "big bang", some explosion of "stuff". i don't believe it is random at all. the All Powerful Creator
Spoke it into Existence - Out of Nothing !! Again : the question I asked was not what you believe, but why you believe it. Just repeating your beliefs over and over isn't answering the question. Do you have a reason to believe that god created the universe, and if so, what is it?
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Post by itsmagic on Aug 27, 2019 14:09:24 GMT
some want to think it is just a "big bang", some explosion of "stuff". i don't believe it is random at all. the All Powerful Creator
Spoke it into Existence - Out of Nothing !! Again : the question I asked was not what you believe, but why you believe it. Just repeating your beliefs over and over isn't answering the question. Do you have a reason to believe that god created the universe, and if so, what is it? God had already created eternal beings, angels. some of whom rebelled with lucifer. the demons were cast down to earth.
God created Adam & Eve because He wanted fellowship with man. we are Made in His Image. He breathed Life into the dust.
He seeks those who would worship him in spirit & truth. from the heart. because God Is Love. this is our time of testing.
in a temporary world that is passing away, he wants those who would seek Him. to invite us to share Eternity with Him.
to be grateful for His Mercy. to Give Him the Glory forever in heaven. look at the universe. He has prepared for us
a realm beyond imagination. He payed the ultimate price for our sins in the sacrifice of His Only SON. a Holy God
could now freely offer us eternal life. Genesis to Revelation He speaks to us though the Holy Spirit.
it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie. Believe His Word of Testimony. He calls to those who are His, He calls to bring us Home
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2019 14:13:57 GMT
Again : the question I asked was not what you believe, but why you believe it. Just repeating your beliefs over and over isn't answering the question. Do you have a reason to believe that god created the universe, and if so, what is it? God had already created eternal beings, angels. some of whom rebelled with lucifer. the demons were cast down to earth.
God created Adam & Eve because He wanted fellowship with man. we are Made in His Image. He breathed Life into the dust.
He seeks those who would worship him in spirit & truth. from the heart. because God Is Love. this is our time of testing.
in a temporary world that is passing away, he wants those who would seek Him. to invite us to share Eternity with Him.
to be grateful for His Mercy. to Give Him the Glory forever in heaven. look at the universe. He has prepared for us
a realm beyond imagination. He payed the ultimate price for our sins in the sacrifice of His Only SON. a Holy God
could now freely offer us eternal life. Genesis to Revelation He speaks to us though the Holy Spirit.
it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie. Believe His Word of Testimony. He calls to those who are His, He calls to bring us Home
So yet again, I ask you WHY you believe and you respond with WHAT you believe. WHY do you believe that this is true?
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Post by itsmagic on Aug 27, 2019 15:08:28 GMT
God had already created eternal beings, angels. some of whom rebelled with lucifer. the demons were cast down to earth.
God created Adam & Eve because He wanted fellowship with man. we are Made in His Image. He breathed Life into the dust.
He seeks those who would worship him in spirit & truth. from the heart. because God Is Love. this is our time of testing.
in a temporary world that is passing away, he wants those who would seek Him. to invite us to share Eternity with Him.
to be grateful for His Mercy. to Give Him the Glory forever in heaven. look at the universe. He has prepared for us
a realm beyond imagination. He payed the ultimate price for our sins in the sacrifice of His Only SON. a Holy God
could now freely offer us eternal life. Genesis to Revelation He speaks to us though the Holy Spirit.
it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie. Believe His Word of Testimony. He calls to those who are His, He calls to bring us Home
So yet again, I ask you WHY you believe and you respond with WHAT you believe. WHY do you believe that this is true? i believe because i KNOW Him from His Word. JOHN, LUKE, MARK, MATTHEW - eyewitnesses with the EXACT words
the Son of God spoke almost 2000yrs ago. 160+ prophesies fulfilled. i believe because every word speaks to me.
the WHY is found in understanding WHO HE IS. his nature, his perfection, his Love for all of us. His word is Life.
His promises true. God speaks directly to us to tell us everything about Him. He helps us to understand the spiritual
realm. He shows us the future in Revelation. so much more. so simple a child could understand. yet with a depth
we will not fathom for all eternity. HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD. those who were with Him fled for their lives when He
was betrayed. after they saw Him alive again they were baptised & preached his resurrection fearlessly. they
suffered horrible martyrs deaths because they KNEW eternal life was waiting for them. they saw Him
ascend into heaven. the more i read & understand from the word, the greater my faith. He draws us to him.
HE teaches us through His Word that we may KNOW the TRUTH. He said " I am the way, the truth, and
the life". He opens our eyes if our heart seeks the truth. to seek Him sets aside the world to find
the spiritual life within. knowing Him is Why
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2019 15:14:07 GMT
So yet again, I ask you WHY you believe and you respond with WHAT you believe. WHY do you believe that this is true? i believe because i KNOW Him from His Word. JOHN, LUKE, MARK, MATTHEW - eyewitnesses with the EXACT words
the Son of God spoke almost 2000yrs ago.
And what makes you think that these accounts (which are anonymous and in at least some cases were likely not written by eyewitnesses) are accurate?
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Post by rizdek on Aug 27, 2019 15:17:00 GMT
Your final statement aligns with what I have been thinking...in my massive and superior knowledge of physics (LOL). I wonder if the background existence (whatever that is) randomly throws together these constants. IF they aren't just so, nothing happens, no universe emerges. But when they are "just so" a universe much like the one we see around us materializes and expands. When a universe doesn't materialize that background existence immediately "tries" again and again and again until the constants are just so. These repeated attempts can go on so there is no problem assuming that those conditions are rare because time itself doesn't really emerge until they are just so. It's a little like natural selection in that if things aren't just right, the embryonic universe simply doesn't emerge. are you more convinced of bubble nucleation or the many worlds interpretation ? I'm not sure what bubble nucleation is. The many worlds is kind of what I am conjecturing...but sequentially not concurrently. IOW each "attempt" at a universe (world) is a sequential event. But if the parameters aren't just right, it doesn't "materialize" or "manifest," IE an expanding universe like the one we see around us does not emerge. So it immediately "tries" again.
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Post by lordquesterjones on Aug 27, 2019 15:31:22 GMT
What do you think is the worst argument to support God`s existence? I'm too important to die, and I'm too scared of death for that to be the end.
Therefore: There's an Afterlife.
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Post by itsmagic on Aug 27, 2019 15:38:32 GMT
i believe because i KNOW Him from His Word. JOHN, LUKE, MARK, MATTHEW - eyewitnesses with the EXACT words
the Son of God spoke almost 2000yrs ago.
And what makes you think that these accounts (which are anonymous and in at least some cases were likely not written by eyewitnesses) are accurate? the Holy Spirit guided the men to remember. Jesus said i will send another, He will guide you to remember everything i have said unto you.
most authors are directly specified. in a few cases, some men were specially gifted by the Holy Spirit. like the apostle Paul -he
saw Jesus on the damascus road- after He had died. men laid their hands upon him and his blindness was taken away. the word says
we have all things pertaining to life & godliness. the Godhead in the Holy Spirit through time has preserved His Word for
us through the centuries. in matt, mark, luke and john you get the eyewitness accounts of Jesus words in red like in
the new king james. which i like or the new american standard
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