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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 22, 2017 0:36:20 GMT
Wow!! That's an interesting theory and a whole lot to assume! I guess we'll see if it's true. I'm probably wrong and thought more about Finn than the people writing it. They'll probably wave everything away and say he's the only non-droid janitor in the galaxy, but oh no, they're not racist. Still... great fanfic though! 👍
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Post by Nightman on Apr 22, 2017 1:05:09 GMT
I'm probably wrong and thought more about Finn than the people writing it. They'll probably wave everything away and say he's the only non-droid janitor in the galaxy, but oh no, they're not racist. Still... great fanfic though! 👍 Not a fanfic, just a theory. I don't have the patience to do a fanfic, and if I did, I'd end up putting Batman in it.
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Post by Nightman on Apr 22, 2017 1:07:58 GMT
Wait, speaking of Batman:
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shinnickneth
Junior Member
@shinnickneth
Posts: 2,514
Likes: 1,781
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Post by shinnickneth on Apr 22, 2017 1:12:08 GMT
Great! Maybe the battle droid can finally get his maintenance then.
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Post by audiosane on Apr 22, 2017 3:10:15 GMT
So basically what you are saying is that he needed that something to put him in fight mode, but he never got it in TFA. Kinda like what I said. Finn was panicky throughout the movie because he was in flight mode the entire time. Even when he tried to do something heroic. Did Finn have years of training as a soldier? Even if he did, he's never been in a battle. He said that was his 1st time out and that he worked sanitation before that. He's basically the guy in a war movie that went for the cushy position, but was made to go fight. I was trying to figure out which character he was suppose to be (since it was a rehashing of the plot of A New Hope). I kept flipping through characters. That's when I realized TFA is like a theater troupe doing all the main characters with 3-4 people. Finn went through Han, C-3PO and Luke. Poe was Leia and Luke. Rey was Leia and Luke. I think that might be Finn's problem. That C-3PO keeps coming out of him. In all the movies, C-3PO was the only one that had that trait (and maybe Jar Jar). Even baby Anakin jumped into the fray without having to psyche himself up 1st. No. I'm saying Finn had moments of fight mode already in TFA, but he was denied any personal victories. It's really a matter of competency, not running away. If Finn was on flight mode the whole time, he never would've stuck his neck out for Rey, including facing his greatest fear by going to Starkiller Base. Finn was clearly in fight mode when he fought TR-8R and Kylo Ren, but he wasn't competent enough to beat them. Not having any prior battle experience would not turn someone in a bumbling comic relief character. Every other stormtrooper in the movie behaved just fine, regardless their level of experience. Someone who was kidnapped from his family, forced to become a soldier and brainwashed into obedience would not act like Jar Jar Lite. That makes no sense. And a soldier with years of training would not be less competent on the battlefield than an untrained scavenger. Finn was the First Order's property. He did what he was told. I think Poe was Han (cool older trio member who's good at flying and smart mouths certain characters) and Leia (got captured by Darth Vader 2.0 and needed saving). Rey was Leia (female lead), Han (captain of the Falcon; independent) and Luke (new Jedi/"Chosen One"). Finn was Han (abandoned his new friends only to return), Kyle Katarn (EU character who was an ex-stormtrooper who later joined the Rebellion) and Jar Jar Binks (bumbling comic relief sidekick, had no advanced skills, regularly needed saving, made the other characters look good at his own expense, was helpful to others but was not allowed to achieve any personal victories, etc.) Even C-3P0 got to look good contributing to saving the gang from the trash compactor. Finn was a bumbling sidekick masquerading as a reasonably competent main character. He was thrown under the bus for Rey's further empowerment as the new female lead.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 22, 2017 13:03:29 GMT
Did Finn have years of training as a soldier? Even if he did, he's never been in a battle. He said that was his 1st time out and that he worked sanitation before that. He's basically the guy in a war movie that went for the cushy position, but was made to go fight. Yet he shows that he WAS trained, as he's able to kill soldiers with the tie fighter, shoot turrets with the tie fighter, murder soldiers with a light sabre and fight with a light sabre. So inconsistent. Why was he so insistent on fighting his fellow brainwashed? Has qualms with killing innocents, but instead of showing empathy for the plight of the other soldiers, he just wants to kill them? In the TIE Fighter he had Poe with him. Being trained doesn't mean that you are competent in a fight. You can do all the training in a world, but go into a martial arts competition without any fighting experience and you could get your ass handed to you by a person with experience in fighting but not much training. And that could be a flaw in having brainwashed Stormtroopers. Maybe them being brainwashed makes them a bit bad at handling a situation against other soldiers. But this doesn't matter because Star Wars is fantasy. You don't care about the orcs in Lord of the Rings do you? Also, they are trying to kill him. What should he do? Put down his weapons and give himself up?
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 22, 2017 13:41:17 GMT
No. I'm saying Finn had moments of fight mode already in TFA, but he was denied any personal victories. It's really a matter of competency, not running away. If Finn was on flight mode the whole time, he never would've stuck his neck out for Rey, including facing his greatest fear by going to Starkiller Base. Finn was clearly in fight mode when he fought TR-8R and Kylo Ren, but he wasn't competent enough to beat them. Not having any prior battle experience would not turn someone in a bumbling comic relief character. Every other stormtrooper in the movie behaved just fine, regardless their level of experience. Someone who was kidnapped from his family, forced to become a soldier and brainwashed into obedience would not act like Jar Jar Lite. That makes no sense. And a soldier with years of training would not be less competent on the battlefield than an untrained scavenger. Finn was the First Order's property. He did what he was told. I think Poe was Han (cool older trio member who's good at flying and smart mouths certain characters) and Leia (got captured by Darth Vader 2.0 and needed saving). Rey was Leia (female lead), Han (captain of the Falcon; independent) and Luke (new Jedi/"Chosen One"). Finn was Han (abandoned his new friends only to return), Kyle Katarn (EU character who was an ex-stormtrooper who later joined the Rebellion) and Jar Jar Binks (bumbling comic relief sidekick, had no advanced skills, regularly needed saving, made the other characters look good at his own expense, was helpful to others but was not allowed to achieve any personal victories, etc.) Even C-3P0 got to look good contributing to saving the gang from the trash compactor. Finn was a bumbling sidekick masquerading as a reasonably competent main character. He was thrown under the bus for Rey's further empowerment as the new female lead. The thing about that is that Finn did those things because he had someone there pushing him along. He wasn't the one really putting himself out there. If he was there alone against Phasma he would have run. If he didn't have Han and Chewbacca when he went up against that Stormtrooper, he would have run. The two times he was on a turret, it was someone flying the ship. He fought Kylo because he had to. Kylo could freeze him in place (Finn saw this with the laser Kylo stopped). He knew he couldn't get away. And it wasn't the not having battle experience that made him bumbling. It was him. He is who he'd be without the brainwashing. The fear of going into battle overrode the brainwashing. Hell, that could have been what made him the character he was. Overriding fear making him overly fear the First Order. I was talking about the characters being the equivalent to the characters in ANH specifically. And if you are talking EU, in one version of his backstory, Han was a stormtrooper that saved Chewbacca from the Empire. Like Finn did with Poe. Poe was also Luke by taking his place in the X-wing at the end. He was also the "Help me Obi Wan. You're my only hope," guy. He wasn't really Han because Leia smart mouthed others, also. Poe smart mouthing Kylo was the same moment in ANH when Leia was talking to Vader. C-3PO did nothing but hold the comm link, comment and interpret R2. And at no time did Finn appear to be a reasonably competent character. The entire movie he showed signs of fear. Maybe that will be his story for The Last Jedi. Him changing to be that hero he needs to be.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 22, 2017 19:38:07 GMT
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Post by audiosane on Apr 23, 2017 7:28:13 GMT
When TFA came out, the overzealous mods over at Theforce.net were issuing warnings to anyone calling Finn a janitor cuz dats da waycist to them. Really? It's somehow offensive when posters do it but not Lucasfilm?
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Post by audiosane on Apr 23, 2017 7:54:38 GMT
No. I'm saying Finn had moments of fight mode already in TFA, but he was denied any personal victories. It's really a matter of competency, not running away. If Finn was on flight mode the whole time, he never would've stuck his neck out for Rey, including facing his greatest fear by going to Starkiller Base. Finn was clearly in fight mode when he fought TR-8R and Kylo Ren, but he wasn't competent enough to beat them. Not having any prior battle experience would not turn someone in a bumbling comic relief character. Every other stormtrooper in the movie behaved just fine, regardless their level of experience. Someone who was kidnapped from his family, forced to become a soldier and brainwashed into obedience would not act like Jar Jar Lite. That makes no sense. And a soldier with years of training would not be less competent on the battlefield than an untrained scavenger. Finn was the First Order's property. He did what he was told. I think Poe was Han (cool older trio member who's good at flying and smart mouths certain characters) and Leia (got captured by Darth Vader 2.0 and needed saving). Rey was Leia (female lead), Han (captain of the Falcon; independent) and Luke (new Jedi/"Chosen One"). Finn was Han (abandoned his new friends only to return), Kyle Katarn (EU character who was an ex-stormtrooper who later joined the Rebellion) and Jar Jar Binks (bumbling comic relief sidekick, had no advanced skills, regularly needed saving, made the other characters look good at his own expense, was helpful to others but was not allowed to achieve any personal victories, etc.) Even C-3P0 got to look good contributing to saving the gang from the trash compactor. Finn was a bumbling sidekick masquerading as a reasonably competent main character. He was thrown under the bus for Rey's further empowerment as the new female lead. The thing about that is that Finn did those things because he had someone there pushing him along. He wasn't the one really putting himself out there. If he was there alone against Phasma he would have run. If he didn't have Han and Chewbacca when he went up against that Stormtrooper, he would have run. The two times he was on a turret, it was someone flying the ship. He fought Kylo because he had to. Kylo could freeze him in place (Finn saw this with the laser Kylo stopped). He knew he couldn't get away. And it wasn't the not having battle experience that made him bumbling. It was him. He is who he'd be without the brainwashing. The fear of going into battle overrode the brainwashing. Hell, that could have been what made him the character he was. Overriding fear making him overly fear the First Order. I was talking about the characters being the equivalent to the characters in ANH specifically. And if you are talking EU, in one version of his backstory, Han was a stormtrooper that saved Chewbacca from the Empire. Like Finn did with Poe. Poe was also Luke by taking his place in the X-wing at the end. He was also the "Help me Obi Wan. You're my only hope," guy. He wasn't really Han because Leia smart mouthed others, also. Poe smart mouthing Kylo was the same moment in ANH when Leia was talking to Vader. C-3PO did nothing but hold the comm link, comment and interpret R2. And at no time did Finn appear to be a reasonably competent character. The entire movie he showed signs of fear. Maybe that will be his story for The Last Jedi. Him changing to be that hero he needs to be. Every time Finn tried go save Rey, it was just him and her, whether on Jakku, the rathtar scene or on Starkiller Base. There was no one else in those scenes to push him. I'm not denying that Finn would've ran away from Phasma, but he wasn't flighty the whole movie. That's not really true. Finn returned because he saw the New Republic being destroyed. He stayed because Rey went missing, and the First Order was attacking them. Finn was in fight mode when he used the lightsaber at Maz's castle. He just wasn't that good with it. What do the TIE Fighter and Falcon pilots have to do with Finn firing the gun? I wasn't making the case of these being examples of Finn shining on his own. Nevertheless, he did contribute to their success. It's true that Finn and Rey tried running away at first. However, once she was knocked out, Finn went into fight mode. It's not like Finn was a normal civilian who joined the First Order as an adult. He was raised, brainwashed and trained by them. Such an environment would not have produced someone who regularly lost fights, needed saving and was made the butt of several jokes. Instead, Finn would be more like a reasonably (or even highly) competent soldier who suppressed his emotions, making him more stoic and anti-social. I mentioned C-3P0 to show how incompetent Finn, a main character, was by comparison. It doesn't matter if C-3P0 only held the comm link. He still helped save their lives. Someone with Finn's background should've been competent from the start, particularly better on the battlefield than an untrained scavenger. It makes no sense that he's suddenly going to improve simply because he changed sides or is in a sequel.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 23, 2017 9:02:52 GMT
When TFA came out, the overzealous mods over at Theforce.net were issuing warnings to anyone calling Finn a janitor cuz dats da waycist to them. Really? It's somehow offensive when posters do it but not Lucasfilm? It was an artificial excuse for defending the criticism. The inference was that calling Finn a janitor was racist because janitor is often looked upon as a demeaning job and in the film Finn never said he was a janitor, he said he was in sanitation. The only problem with that phlemsy line of logic is that if he's in sanitation what else could he be but a janitor, trash man/garbage man, or waste treatment plant worker?..... Yeah, as if those other positions have less demeaning stigmas attached to them.
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Post by johnspartan on Apr 23, 2017 16:36:27 GMT
When TFA came out, the overzealous mods over at Theforce.net were issuing warnings to anyone calling Finn a janitor cuz dats da waycist to them. Really? It's somehow offensive when posters do it but not Lucasfilm? The brilliant nazi mods argued Finn said he worked in sanitation but never said he was a janitor so for us to infer he was a janitor is hate speech. Theforce.net is ridiculous, I only post there when they open The Basher's Sanctuary to allow fans to vent their anger.
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ryboto
Sophomore
@ryboto
Posts: 776
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Post by ryboto on Apr 24, 2017 1:46:51 GMT
Yet he shows that he WAS trained, as he's able to kill soldiers with the tie fighter, shoot turrets with the tie fighter, murder soldiers with a light sabre and fight with a light sabre. So inconsistent. Why was he so insistent on fighting his fellow brainwashed? Has qualms with killing innocents, but instead of showing empathy for the plight of the other soldiers, he just wants to kill them? In the TIE Fighter he had Poe with him. Being trained doesn't mean that you are competent in a fight. You can do all the training in a world, but go into a martial arts competition without any fighting experience and you could get your ass handed to you by a person with experience in fighting but not much training. And that could be a flaw in having brainwashed Stormtroopers. Maybe them being brainwashed makes them a bit bad at handling a situation against other soldiers. But this doesn't matter because Star Wars is fantasy. You don't care about the orcs in Lord of the Rings do you? Also, they are trying to kill him. What should he do? Put down his weapons and give himself up? The fight against the trooper who calls him out with the melee weapon SHOWS you he's competent with the sabre. This implies he has some experience. He murders a trooper on the way to that fight. The whole problem here is that we didn't care, and now, we kind of do. If 90% of the troops were kidnapped and brainwashed, I absolutely care! It's actually pretty fricken terrible! Finn, instead of abstaining and running from the fight like Rey, ACTIVELY ENGAGES. It just doesn't jive with his background, but it enables an action sequence? Establishes he can sort of handle a sabre so that we aren't so taken aback later when he fights Kylo? If he were to have had character development, he'd have maybe not been keen on killing, but instead, disabling, and then maybe there would have been a scene where he tried to snap one of the soldiers out of it....maybe he'd find it impossible, and then when he lets his guard down, the trooper tries to kill him and he has to kill in self defense...he's torn, but he had to do it. TOTALLY would have given Finn more depth, changed the tone of his ridiculously useless character.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 24, 2017 2:45:29 GMT
In the TIE Fighter he had Poe with him. Being trained doesn't mean that you are competent in a fight. You can do all the training in a world, but go into a martial arts competition without any fighting experience and you could get your ass handed to you by a person with experience in fighting but not much training. And that could be a flaw in having brainwashed Stormtroopers. Maybe them being brainwashed makes them a bit bad at handling a situation against other soldiers. But this doesn't matter because Star Wars is fantasy. You don't care about the orcs in Lord of the Rings do you? Also, they are trying to kill him. What should he do? Put down his weapons and give himself up? The fight against the trooper who calls him out with the melee weapon SHOWS you he's competent with the sabre. This implies he has some experience. He murders a trooper on the way to that fight. The whole problem here is that we didn't care, and now, we kind of do. If 90% of the troops were kidnapped and brainwashed, I absolutely care! It's actually pretty fricken terrible! Finn, instead of abstaining and running from the fight like Rey, ACTIVELY ENGAGES. It just doesn't jive with his background, but it enables an action sequence? Establishes he can sort of handle a sabre so that we aren't so taken aback later when he fights Kylo? If he were to have had character development, he'd have maybe not been keen on killing, but instead, disabling, and then maybe there would have been a scene where he tried to snap one of the soldiers out of it....maybe he'd find it impossible, and then when he lets his guard down, the trooper tries to kill him and he has to kill in self defense...he's torn, but he had to do it. TOTALLY would have given Finn more depth, changed the tone of his ridiculously useless character. Yeah, I have to agree. Maybe they could've even had Finn stand there in a daze with a numb, shocked expression on his face for a moment after all the shooting had stopped. An indication of the inner conflict he would be feeling over killing his former associates and friends. But instead we got Finn going for the gusto in battle, Finn having manic fits while playing cheerleader to Poe, and Finn screaming at the top of his lungs (like Marlon Brando in 'A Streetcar Named Desire') as if his true love soulmate has just been kidnapped and he just met the girl that same day! It's just bad writing.
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Apr 24, 2017 8:53:22 GMT
But this doesn't matter because Star Wars is fantasy. You don't care about the orcs in Lord of the Rings do you? The funny thing here though is that up until TFA the Stormtroopers / Imperials were all the same as the orcs. Hence years of comedians pushing that assumption for comedic purposes, e.g. "all those guys on the death star, just doing their jobs". Then TFA comes along and half-arsedly tries to get us to examine that seriously - "wow, he really is just a guy doing his job"! And even worse - "he's actually been brainwashed in order to get him to do that job". Problem is that the moronic writing then requires you to forget all about that not 20 minutes later when Finn is high-fiving Poe after gunning down dozens of his former colleagues - now we have think of them all as orcs again. Even though at the back of our minds we know that the reality is they too were probably all brainwashed and just got murdered by our likewise aware heroes
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Post by audiosane on Apr 24, 2017 9:15:41 GMT
Really? It's somehow offensive when posters do it but not Lucasfilm? The brilliant nazi mods argued Finn said he worked in sanitation but never said he was a janitor so for us to infer he was a janitor is hate speech. Theforce.net is ridiculous, I only post there when they open The Basher's Sanctuary to allow fans to vent their anger. Wow... they actually have something like The Basher's Sanctuary... at TheForce.net? Hmm. Thanks for the heads up.
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Post by audiosane on Apr 24, 2017 9:19:38 GMT
But this doesn't matter because Star Wars is fantasy. You don't care about the orcs in Lord of the Rings do you? The funny thing here though is that up until TFA the Stormtroopers / Imperials were all the same as the orcs. Hence years of comedians pushing that assumption for comedic purposes, e.g. "all those guys on the death star, just doing their jobs". Then TFA comes along and half-arsedly tries to get us to examine that seriously - "wow, he really is just a guy doing his job"! And even worse - "he's actually been brainwashed in order to get him to do that job". Problem is that the moronic writing then requires you to forget all about that not 20 minutes later when Finn is high-fiving Poe after gunning down dozens of his former colleagues - now we have think of them all as orcs again. Even though at the back of our minds we know that the reality is they too were probably all brainwashed and just got murdered by our likewise aware heroes Instead of making Finn a "Let my people go!" Moses-type, he's just a freed slave who returns to the plantation to gun down his fellow slaves. Inspiring.
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Post by johnspartan on Apr 24, 2017 16:54:21 GMT
The brilliant nazi mods argued Finn said he worked in sanitation but never said he was a janitor so for us to infer he was a janitor is hate speech. Theforce.net is ridiculous, I only post there when they open The Basher's Sanctuary to allow fans to vent their anger. Wow... they actually have something like The Basher's Sanctuary... at TheForce.net? Hmm. Thanks for the heads up. During the prequel era they had to open it up to contain all the angry posts in one thread. They shut it down shortly after ROTS and had to reopen it briefly after TFA.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 24, 2017 17:05:15 GMT
But this doesn't matter because Star Wars is fantasy. You don't care about the orcs in Lord of the Rings do you? The funny thing here though is that up until TFA the Stormtroopers / Imperials were all the same as the orcs. Hence years of comedians pushing that assumption for comedic purposes, e.g. "all those guys on the death star, just doing their jobs". Then TFA comes along and half-arsedly tries to get us to examine that seriously - "wow, he really is just a guy doing his job"! And even worse - "he's actually been brainwashed in order to get him to do that job". Problem is that the moronic writing then requires you to forget all about that not 20 minutes later when Finn is high-fiving Poe after gunning down dozens of his former colleagues - now we have think of them all as orcs again. Even though at the back of our minds we know that the reality is they too were probably all brainwashed and just got murdered by our likewise aware heroes That's because you aren't suppose to think about that when it comes to the faceless. You're are only suppose to care about the 1 that got away and his plight. And we already had everyday Stormtroopers that are just doing their jobs. Think about the Stormtroopers in ANH and Rogue One. Both of those movies had a couple of Stormtroopers talking about something other than killing Rebel scum. The one in in ANH had a conversation that would be the same as talking to a coworker about a new car that came out.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 24, 2017 17:15:24 GMT
In the TIE Fighter he had Poe with him. Being trained doesn't mean that you are competent in a fight. You can do all the training in a world, but go into a martial arts competition without any fighting experience and you could get your ass handed to you by a person with experience in fighting but not much training. And that could be a flaw in having brainwashed Stormtroopers. Maybe them being brainwashed makes them a bit bad at handling a situation against other soldiers. But this doesn't matter because Star Wars is fantasy. You don't care about the orcs in Lord of the Rings do you? Also, they are trying to kill him. What should he do? Put down his weapons and give himself up? The fight against the trooper who calls him out with the melee weapon SHOWS you he's competent with the sabre. This implies he has some experience. He murders a trooper on the way to that fight. The whole problem here is that we didn't care, and now, we kind of do. If 90% of the troops were kidnapped and brainwashed, I absolutely care! It's actually pretty fricken terrible! Finn, instead of abstaining and running from the fight like Rey, ACTIVELY ENGAGES. It just doesn't jive with his background, but it enables an action sequence? Establishes he can sort of handle a sabre so that we aren't so taken aback later when he fights Kylo? If he were to have had character development, he'd have maybe not been keen on killing, but instead, disabling, and then maybe there would have been a scene where he tried to snap one of the soldiers out of it....maybe he'd find it impossible, and then when he lets his guard down, the trooper tries to kill him and he has to kill in self defense...he's torn, but he had to do it. TOTALLY would have given Finn more depth, changed the tone of his ridiculously useless character. Rey wasn't running from the fight. She was running from her destiny. But then she was running from Kylo because... "Shit I left that lightsaber behind." But why should we care that he isn't disabling them instead of killing them? That's like thinking that they shouldn't kill Terminators because they were programmed to kill humans. It's not their fault. The First Order Stormtroopers are programmed to kill whoever they are told to kill. Should they have had him say a prayer that he shouldn't know every time he shot a Stormtrooper? All he knew is that they wanted to kill him so he had to survive. If your neighbors turned into zombies, would you shoot them in the knees or kill them? It's not their fault they became zombies.
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