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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2019 2:22:19 GMT
The more I watch, the more I accept the very valid criticisms of the out of character depth of the fall of Luke, the tedium of the Canto Bight storyline, and the cringiness of Rose and Finn on Crait.
The more I watch, the more I enjoy Luke's training of Rey, the entirety of the scenes in Snoke's throne room and everything else that happened outside of Rose and Finn on Crait. Luke's redemption and confrontation with Kylo was, for me, a great follow up to Kylo and Han's confrontation in TFA.
I just hope that the storytellers find a way to finish the story in a satisfying way without Leia.
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Oct 4, 2019 2:43:39 GMT
I never thought Luke was out of character and don't think that the more I watch it. I agree with most of the other criticisms though....
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2019 3:12:54 GMT
I never thought Luke was out of character and don't think that the more I watch it. I agree with most of the other criticisms though.... I can't shake that one. I try, and maybe some of it is my personal expectation of the character. It's not the events that happened with Kylo at the temple, it's more his turning his back on his friends because I guess he thought they would be better off without him in light of his failure. He almost fell to the darkness in ROTJ for the love of his friends and his desires to actively protect them. I'll be chewing on that one for a lot of years if I ever get it to go down. Maybe it's just my personal desire to own the story like almost every fan does. His characterization at the end was perfect Luke Skywalker to me though. I was wondering how this story could ever work with the guy who learned to win by throwing the saber away into an enjoyable confrontation with Kylo. I so enjoy how rewatchable those scenes are. Even including his "becoming one with the Force."
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2019 4:13:26 GMT
The Luke backstory makes no sense. And those bulging eyes! Ugh.
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Post by shinnickneth on Oct 4, 2019 20:12:48 GMT
The more I watch, the more I accept the very valid criticisms of the out of character depth of the fall of Luke, the tedium of the Canto Bight storyline, and the cringiness of Rose and Finn on Crait. The more I watch, the more I enjoy Luke's training of Rey, the entirety of the scenes in Snoke's throne room and everything else that happened outside of Rose and Finn on Crait. Luke's redemption and confrontation with Kylo was, for me, a great follow up to Kylo and Han's confrontation in TFA. I just hope that the storytellers find a way to finish the story in a satisfying way without Leia. Also the mischaracterization of Yoda. I didn't really like how Poe Dameron was botched as well, but that's more just story choice than mischaracterization. Poe should have been courtmartialed though for being insubordinate and leading a mutiny instead of, you know, just a slap across the face from Leia. Ridiculous. I'm starting to see why the Resistance failed miserably. Their people lack discipline and loyalty. I can't say I agree on the throne room sequence. It was mostly a regurgitation of the throne room scene from Return of the Jedi (especially Snoke's dialogue). I didn't care for the Crait confrontation either, but Mark Hamill looked fantastic and he really tried with his performance despite Johnson's script. He deserved so much better. The dust off the shoulder moment was especially corny. Scrap footage leftover from Episode 7 is all they have, so I doubt it. I hope it satisfies you though.
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Oct 4, 2019 20:45:01 GMT
I never thought Luke was out of character and don't think that the more I watch it. I agree with most of the other criticisms though.... I can't shake that one. I try, and maybe some of it is my personal expectation of the character. It's not the events that happened with Kylo at the temple, it's more his turning his back on his friends because I guess he thought they would be better off without him in light of his failure. He almost fell to the darkness in ROTJ for the love of his friends and his desires to actively protect them. Well, truth be told, we've never seen Luke in the position he's in this movie. We do know he does things impulsively because he cares about his friends. He does this in both ESB (goes to Bespin) and ROTJ (attacks Vader in anger). In both cases, huge amounts of luck play a part in Luke coming out of it without causing disasters. In ESB, he ultimately does not rescue his friends and only puts them in MORE danger by causing them to come back to rescue him. It's lucky they all survived. In ROTJ, it's Palp's taunts that pull Luke from the brink of giving into his anger and killing his father. How would Luke have reacted in ESB if his actions lead to Han or Leia's death? That's more like what we're seeing in TLJ. In TLJ, we see what happens when Luke's impulsiveness actually results in disaster. His impulse (likely motivated by the impulse to protect his friends) leads him to temporarily ignite his lightsaber. Unfortunately, luck is not on his side as it results in the slaughter of all of his students. We're seeing a Luke who is facing something he's never had to face before.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2019 20:54:22 GMT
I can't shake that one. I try, and maybe some of it is my personal expectation of the character. It's not the events that happened with Kylo at the temple, it's more his turning his back on his friends because I guess he thought they would be better off without him in light of his failure. He almost fell to the darkness in ROTJ for the love of his friends and his desires to actively protect them. Well, truth be told, we've never seen Luke in the position he's in this movie. We do know he does things impulsively because he cares about his friends. He does this in both ESB (goes to Bespin) and ROTJ (attacks Vader in anger). In both cases, huge amounts of luck play a part in Luke coming out of it without causing disasters. In ESB, he ultimately does not rescue his friends and only puts them in MORE danger by causing them to come back to rescue him. It's lucky they all survived. In ROTJ, it's Palp's taunts that pull Luke from the brink of giving into his anger and killing his father. How would Luke have reacted in ESB if his actions lead to Han or Leia's death? That's more like what we're seeing in TLJ. In TLJ, we see what happens when Luke's impulsiveness actually results in disaster. His impulse (likely motivated by the impulse to protect his friends) leads him to temporarily ignite his lightsaber. Unfortunately, luck is not on his side as it results in the slaughter of all of his students. We're seeing a Luke who is facing something he's never had to face before. That's some good food for thought there... Kinda ties into what Yoda was talking to him about as well...
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Oct 4, 2019 20:57:03 GMT
Well, truth be told, we've never seen Luke in the position he's in this movie. We do know he does things impulsively because he cares about his friends. He does this in both ESB (goes to Bespin) and ROTJ (attacks Vader in anger). In both cases, huge amounts of luck play a part in Luke coming out of it without causing disasters. In ESB, he ultimately does not rescue his friends and only puts them in MORE danger by causing them to come back to rescue him. It's lucky they all survived. In ROTJ, it's Palp's taunts that pull Luke from the brink of giving into his anger and killing his father. How would Luke have reacted in ESB if his actions lead to Han or Leia's death? That's more like what we're seeing in TLJ. In TLJ, we see what happens when Luke's impulsiveness actually results in disaster. His impulse (likely motivated by the impulse to protect his friends) leads him to temporarily ignite his lightsaber. Unfortunately, luck is not on his side as it results in the slaughter of all of his students. We're seeing a Luke who is facing something he's never had to face before. That's some good food for thought there... Kinda ties into what Yoda was talking to him about as well... I think the ultimate problem is people never wanted to see Luke in a situation like that.
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Post by shinnickneth on Oct 5, 2019 0:35:57 GMT
Well, truth be told, we've never seen Luke in the position he's in this movie. We do know he does things impulsively because he cares about his friends. He does this in both ESB (goes to Bespin) and ROTJ (attacks Vader in anger). In both cases, huge amounts of luck play a part in Luke coming out of it without causing disasters. In ESB, he ultimately does not rescue his friends and only puts them in MORE danger by causing them to come back to rescue him. It's lucky they all survived. In ROTJ, it's Palp's taunts that pull Luke from the brink of giving into his anger and killing his father. How would Luke have reacted in ESB if his actions lead to Han or Leia's death? That's more like what we're seeing in TLJ. In TLJ, we see what happens when Luke's impulsiveness actually results in disaster. His impulse (likely motivated by the impulse to protect his friends) leads him to temporarily ignite his lightsaber. Unfortunately, luck is not on his side as it results in the slaughter of all of his students. We're seeing a Luke who is facing something he's never had to face before. We've seen Luke in plenty of dire situations. True, he's never had padawans slaughtered before, but he's had plenty of loss in his life from his aunt/uncle being slaughtered, to his mentor being struck down in front of him, to his friends being tortured/imprisoned/enslaved, the passing of another mentor to "old age", having his hand chopped off, entire planets being destroyed, his fellow Rebellion pilot friends dying, his good friend placed in carbonite, etc. Despite all of that adversity/tests, he doesn't lose hope in the OT. He doesn't stop trying to help his friends and stand up for his convictions/beliefs. Not even the Emperor/Vader double teaming him could turn him to the Dark Side. He holds steadfast in becoming a Jedi. He holds in his belief that his father, one of the most infamous Sith Lords in the galaxy, can be turned back to the good side. ...now compare that to Episode 7/8. He doesn't try to aid the Resistance (they're a lousy knock-off of the Rebellion but come on!). He doesn't attempt to help after hearing of Han's death. He even has to be convinced to help Leia by R2. This doesn't sound like someone who would do anything for those he cares about. Despite successfully helping Darth Vader redeem himself, he doesn't have faith that he can help his nephew back to the good side? I'm not buying it. Sure, Luke starts off as a wide-eyed boy who can be a bit whiney and impulsive. It's true. You're right. Those are his faults as a naive kid. He then matures over the course of the OT. He becomes a man. He proves himself to be brave, loyal, and a person with strong scruples/convictions. His views/beliefs are tested. He suffers and those around him suffer too. He learns more about himself and the strength he posses. He keeps to the "straight-and-narrow" and isn't seduced to the Dark Side. He becomes a Jedi. At the close of Episode 6, he's learned from his mistakes and is a wiser individual. Rian Johnson then took that 3 film character development, removed all of Luke's central characteristics (his optimism, his loyalty, his selflessness, his convictions, etc.), and forced puzzle pieces into the story that simply didn't fit...so he pounded and superglued them in. I'm with homegreg. It's out of character.
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Post by Jan El Señor on Oct 5, 2019 18:16:05 GMT
We've seen Luke in plenty of dire situations. True, he's never had padawans slaughtered before, but he's had plenty of loss in his life from his aunt/uncle being slaughtered, to his mentor being struck down in front of him, to his friends being tortured/imprisoned/enslaved, the passing of another mentor to "old age", having his hand chopped off, entire planets being destroyed, his fellow Rebellion pilot friends dying, his good friend placed in carbonite, etc. It's not just being in a dire situation. It's being in a situation where the people Luke cares about die directly as a result of his impulsiveness. That never happened in the OT. The examples you gave are not comparable.
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Post by shinnickneth on Oct 5, 2019 19:43:35 GMT
It's not just being in a dire situation. It's being in a situation where the people Luke cares about die directly as a result of his impulsiveness. That never happened in the OT. The examples you gave are not comparable. Luke isn't responsible for the padawans being killed, if that's what you're getting at. Kylo is the one who did that. Kylo was also the one who killed Han. The only thing Luke was responsible for was abandoning his friends/family to sulk on an island. He might have been indirectly responsible, but as we've previously came to the conclusion of, he didn't leave the map so he didn't get Han or the village at the beginning of 7 killed. My examples are very comparable then.
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Post by Jan El Señor on Oct 5, 2019 20:01:56 GMT
Luke isn't responsible for the padawans being killed, if that's what you're getting at. Kylo is the one who did that. Due to Luke momentarily igniting his lightsaber on an impulse.... True, whether or not Luke actually shares responsibility is debatable. But it is clear Luke feels he is responsible for what Ben does. A better comparison for this would be if Chewie and Leia died at the end of ESB when they went back to rescue Luke. Had Luke still managed to survive, what would that have done to him? The only thing Luke was responsible for was abandoning his friends/family to sulk on an island. Well, after what happened with Ben, this is how Luke feels he is best protecting his friends. He feels his involvement will just make things worse.
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Post by shinnickneth on Oct 6, 2019 15:31:01 GMT
Due to Luke momentarily igniting his lightsaber on an impulse....True, whether or not Luke actually shares responsibility is debatable. But it is clear Luke feels he is responsible for what Ben does. A better comparison for this would be if Chewie and Leia died at the end of ESB when they went back to rescue Luke. Had Luke still managed to survive, what would that have done to him? Well, after what happened with Ben, this is how Luke feels he is best protecting his friends. He feels his involvement will just make things worse. Yes, that's one of Rian Johnson's forced puzzle pieces I was talking about earlier. Luke Skywalker wouldn't ignite his lightsaber on a sleeping kid - especially when the person is his own nephew and padawan. He wouldn't even consider it. Luke's the man that brought Darth Vader back to the Light Side (Disney haven't robbed Luke of that... yet). A little twerp like Ben Solo would be a cake walk for Luke in comparison.
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Post by Jan El Señor on Oct 6, 2019 16:41:44 GMT
Yes, that's one of Rian Johnson's forced puzzle pieces I was talking about earlier. Luke Skywalker wouldn't ignite his lightsaber on a sleeping kid - especially when the person is his own nephew and padawan. He wouldn't even consider it. I disagree. It's just the sort of impulsive thing Luke would do if he thought his friends would be in danger. It's actually a progression from the OT, as he stops himself after a second.
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Post by shinnickneth on Oct 7, 2019 21:19:57 GMT
I disagree. It's just the sort of impulsive thing Luke would do if he thought his friends would be in danger. It's actually a progression from the OT, as he stops himself after a second. Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Oct 7, 2019 21:35:05 GMT
I disagree. It's just the sort of impulsive thing Luke would do if he thought his friends would be in danger. It's actually a progression from the OT, as he stops himself after a second. Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Yeah. It's a subjective thing. I didn't expect to convince you on this one.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2019 22:25:11 GMT
Jan El Señor, shinnickneth, This is the list of other characters in Cinema that I would care enough about to discuss to this level: Luke's a pretty special character, isn't he!
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Post by shinnickneth on Oct 8, 2019 4:23:50 GMT
Jan El Señor , shinnickneth , This is the list of other characters in Cinema that I would care enough about to discuss to this level:
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