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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2019 23:19:05 GMT
Okay, so Joker had a note from Thomas Wayne to his mother detailing romance? I don't remember this. I remember his mother sending notes to Wayne, and Joker finds one of them on the table which is when he starts asking her questions. Was that what you're talking about or was it part of her Arkham file or? No it's after all of that. He gets Thomas Wayne telling him she was nuts. He reads the file in Arkham telling him she was nuts. He then kills her. And then at the opening of the scene before he's going on the Murray Franklin show he's holding the photo with Wayne's inscription on the back, something like "Always keep your beautiful smile, T.W." before he crushes it up and then kills the guy who gave him the gun. I'm not sure what we're supposed to think about Arthur's paternity. We see the adoption certificate but then she says Wayne had the certificate forged, in the flashback, and it's not like a guy with his resources couldn't have made it happen. But was that also a product or Arthur's imagination? The thing is, Pheonix and the actor who pmayed Wayne did have similar features, and I don't think that was accident. I guess it was left for us to decide.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Oct 11, 2019 0:12:15 GMT
No it's after all of that. He gets Thomas Wayne telling him she was nuts. He reads the file in Arkham telling him she was nuts. He then kills her. And then at the opening of the scene before he's going on the Murray Franklin show he's holding the photo with Wayne's inscription on the back, something like "Always keep your beautiful smile, T.W." before he crushes it up and then kills the guy who gave him the gun. I'm not sure what we're supposed to think about Arthur's paternity. We see the adoption certificate but then she says Wayne had the certificate forged, in the flashback, and it's not like a guy with his resources couldn't have made it happen. But was that also a product or Arthur's imagination? The thing is, Pheonix and the actor who pmayed Wayne did have similar features, and I don't think that was accident. I guess it was left for us to decide. Originally Alec Baldwin was going to play Thomas Wayne, and they had this guy lying around from TDKR, so I don't know about all that. As for the note, I guess I didn't think much of it to forget about it. I probably figured it was a platonic note (especially with a formal "TW" attached) that she blew out of proportion. But apparently the actor who plays TW is saying he actually thinks he is Joker's father, while Todd Phillips is playing the ambiguity card. Meh. Did we learn nothing from Spectre?
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Post by Winter_King on Oct 11, 2019 9:38:16 GMT
Correction: the Joker is still a bad guy even after Alan Moore. He is always portrayed as a villain. Being a tragic villain, doesn't preven him from being a villain. Hell he is villain in the Joker movie. A villain protagonist but still a villain.
Lets face it most of the heroes on modern media are white and male. You have plenty to choose if you have a problem with white males being portrayed negatively on occasion.
How many (truly) innocent people does the Joker murder or try to murder in this movie?
Murray for starters. He was innocent. Surely he didn't do anything deserving of death. I'd argue that his mentally ill mom and the social worker which is implied to have been killed at the end were also innocent. The only people that might have been justifiably killed were the three guys at the subway. Two of them killed in self defense. Yes, heroes, usually have flaws in order to be relatable. You don't want them to be Mary Sues... THat's just poor writing. So the only heroes that matter to you are the ones that are a traditional heroic portrayal? Which heroes are you talking about? So let me get this straight: Stark is the nerd, despite being portrayed as a playboy and genius. Not very different from Bruce Wayne without all the psychological baggage. Rogers is a scientific creation but Thor being a basically a God is okay? LOL. You are making excuses for the fact that most heroes in media continuing to be white men. Dwayne Johnson is an actor. Not a character. For the record, the character he was playing in San Andreas as divorced so I guess him that precludes him from being a the traditional heroic portrayal (whatever that means).
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Post by Lux on Oct 11, 2019 11:33:45 GMT
Correction: the Joker is still a bad guy even after Alan Moore. He is always portrayed as a villain. Being a tragic villain, doesn't preven him from being a villain. Hell he is villain in the Joker movie. A villain protagonist but still a villain.
Lets face it most of the heroes on modern media are white and male. You have plenty to choose if you have a problem with white males being portrayed negatively on occasion.
How many (truly) innocent people does the Joker murder or try to murder in this movie?
The white male heroes all have to fit a certain pattern--shorter than they used to be, divorced, have a daddy or mommy issue, require diversity mentors or help in order to achieve goals, or rely on science and magic. The closest character to a Beowulf type (aka traditional European hero archtype going back more than 1000 years) is Thor and they inexplicably made him into a fat joke. Neither Steve Rogers nor Tony Stark represent a traditional heroic portrayal --Stark is the nerd. Rogers is a scientific creation, only Thor (despite being presented as an alien) was closest in original concept. Perhaps Dwayne Johnson fares better but then he's darker.
Stark is the nerd? So anyone who is intelligent is a nerd to you? What exactly is your idea of an action hero.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Oct 11, 2019 11:55:01 GMT
I'm not sure what we're supposed to think about Arthur's paternity. We see the adoption certificate but then she says Wayne had the certificate forged, in the flashback, and it's not like a guy with his resources couldn't have made it happen. But was that also a product or Arthur's imagination? The thing is, Pheonix and the actor who pmayed Wayne did have similar features, and I don't think that was accident. I guess it was left for us to decide. Originally Alec Baldwin was going to play Thomas Wayne, and they had this guy lying around from TDKR, so I don't know about all that. As for the note, I guess I didn't think much of it to forget about it. I probably figured it was a platonic note (especially with a formal "TW" attached) that she blew out of proportion. But apparently the actor who plays TW is saying he actually thinks he is Joker's father, while Todd Phillips is playing the ambiguity card. Meh. Did we learn nothing from Spectre? And for all we know she wrote that note on the picture. She was obsessed with the guy, after all. The actor's opinion is as relevant as mine. If the director is leaving it up in the air (which he should), I'm free to believe there was nothing between them. If Joker and Bruce being half-brothers enhances the film for someone, more power to them. But to me, Penny imagined the relationship.
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Oct 11, 2019 12:44:27 GMT
No it's after all of that. He gets Thomas Wayne telling him she was nuts. He reads the file in Arkham telling him she was nuts. He then kills her. And then at the opening of the scene before he's going on the Murray Franklin show he's holding the photo with Wayne's inscription on the back, something like "Always keep your beautiful smile, T.W." before he crushes it up and then kills the guy who gave him the gun. I'm not sure what we're supposed to think about Arthur's paternity. We see the adoption certificate but then she says Wayne had the certificate forged, in the flashback, and it's not like a guy with his resources couldn't have made it happen. But was that also a product or Arthur's imagination? The thing is, Pheonix and the actor who pmayed Wayne did have similar features, and I don't think that was accident. I guess it was left for us to decide. Yeah, I thought that Thomas Wayne casting was pretty good if they were going for a similar looking guy. I did like that bit were Joker called that out in the bathroom, when he was giving it - look at you, you at me... Also interesting was the casting of young Bruce Wayne. Apparently they used the same actor who'd played a younger / kid Joaquin phoenix in one of his other films, so they were definitely playing up his similarity to the Wayne's.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2019 15:27:20 GMT
I'm not sure what we're supposed to think about Arthur's paternity. We see the adoption certificate but then she says Wayne had the certificate forged, in the flashback, and it's not like a guy with his resources couldn't have made it happen. But was that also a product or Arthur's imagination? The thing is, Pheonix and the actor who pmayed Wayne did have similar features, and I don't think that was accident. I guess it was left for us to decide. Yeah, I thought that Thomas Wayne casting was pretty good if they were going for a similar looking guy. I did like that bit were Joker called that out in the bathroom, when he was giving it - look at you, you at me... Also interesting was the casting of young Bruce Wayne. Apparently they used the same actor who'd played a younger / kid Joaquin phoenix in one of his other films, so they were definitely playing up his similarity to the Wayne's. It also makes Wayne a bigger prick if that's the case.
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Post by Prime etc. on Oct 11, 2019 16:33:03 GMT
Yes, heroes, usually have flaws in order to be relatable. You don't want them to be Mary Sues... THat's just poor writing. So what exactly did you not like about Errol Flynn's lack of flaws in the Adventures of Robin Hood? People still watch it decades later, so how do you think the character could have been made better? A father atonement issue?
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Post by Prime etc. on Oct 11, 2019 16:35:15 GMT
Stark is the nerd? So anyone who is intelligent is a nerd to you? What exactly is your idea of an action hero. He's no Charlton Heston/Gregory Peck/Clint Eastwood/Lee Marvin/ or any other leading actor in adventure story situations prior to the 2000s era. Not just the height, but the attitude.
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Post by Lux on Oct 11, 2019 17:15:30 GMT
Stark is the nerd? So anyone who is intelligent is a nerd to you? What exactly is your idea of an action hero. He's no Charlton Heston/Gregory Peck/Clint Eastwood/Lee Marvin/ or any other leading actor in adventure story situations prior to the 2000s era. Not just the height, but the attitude.
Gregory Peck never struck me as the rugged throw you over the shoulder kinda guy to me. The rest you're right about. Stark has confidence and makes up his own rules and was a hell of a lot more alive than Peck.
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Post by Prime etc. on Oct 11, 2019 17:29:37 GMT
Gregory Peck never struck me as the rugged throw you over the shoulder kinda guy to me. The rest you're right about. Stark has confidence and makes up his own rules and was a hell of a lot more alive than Peck. He had more range for certain kinds of parts than RDJ. Peck as Ahab-he isn't brawny but has the look and voice to sell the role dramatically-you cannot imagine RDJ as Ahab at all. RDJ could never have starred in Cape Fear opposite Robert Mitchum--too much of a height difference. Even the Martin Balsam role would have been an ill-fit since the impression of the part was someone street-wise about crime. He might have been able to be Mitchum's attorney.
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Post by Lux on Oct 11, 2019 17:39:25 GMT
Gregory Peck never struck me as the rugged throw you over the shoulder kinda guy to me. The rest you're right about. Stark has confidence and makes up his own rules and was a hell of a lot more alive than Peck. He had more range for certain kinds of parts than RDJ. Peck as Ahab-he isn't brawny but has the look and voice to sell the role dramatically-you cannot imagine RDJ as Ahab at all. RDJ could never have starred in Cape Fear opposite Robert Mitchum--too much of a height difference. Even the Martin Balsam role would have been an ill-fit since the impression of the part was someone street-wise about crime. He might have been able to be Mitchum's attorney.
I always found Peck limited in his range as an actor let's just say he never exactly blew my world apart with his performances.
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Post by Prime etc. on Oct 11, 2019 17:45:52 GMT
I always found Peck limited in his range as an actor let's just say he never exactly blew my world apart with his performances. The point is. While Peck could portray Mengele or Ahab with a certain dramatic intensity, RDJ could not. He lacks the natural traits for it. Voice, appearance, height, etc.
Nothing wrong with an actor being unsuited for certain roles, just the way it is.
RDJ could not play El Cid and his Taylor would be far more vulnerable and goofy than Heston's.
Just imagine him saying "get your stinking paws off me you damn dirty ape."
He just cannot do it. It's biology. Different strokes for different folks.
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Post by Lux on Oct 11, 2019 17:54:56 GMT
I always found Peck limited in his range as an actor let's just say he never exactly blew my world apart with his performances. The point is. While Peck could portray Mengele or Ahab with a certain dramatic intensity, RDJ could not. He lacks the natural traits for it. Voice, appearance, height, etc.
Nothing wrong with an actor being unsuited for certain roles, just the way it is.
RDJ could not play El Cid and his Taylor would be far more vulnerable and goofy than Heston's.
Just imagine him saying "get your stinking paws off me you damn dirty ape."
He just cannot do it. It's biology. Different strokes for different folks.
I never found Peck dramatically intense either which is fine. As you say some actors aren't suited to roles. RDJ can definitely do intense and has the range to play psychopaths as he's done more than once.
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Post by Prime etc. on Oct 11, 2019 18:05:33 GMT
RDJ can definitely do intense and has the range to play psychopaths as he's done more than once. But he can't do certain roles. He's around the same height as Robert DeNiro but I cannot imagine him being able to mimic DeNiro in his version of Cape Fear. It's just biology. Peck felt he was miscast for Moby Dick but from a Classics Illustrated meets Hollywood perspective, he was ok. He had the face and certainly the voice for it. RDJ could not say "he rises!" with the same growling energy.
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Post by Lux on Oct 11, 2019 18:21:43 GMT
But he can't do certain roles. He's around the same height as Robert DeNiro but I cannot imagine him being able to mimic DeNiro in his version of Cape Fear. It's just biology. Peck felt he was miscast for Moby Dick but from a Classics Illustrated meets Hollywood perspective, he was ok. He had the face and certainly the voice for it. RDJ could not say "he rises!" with the same growling energy.
RDJ could definitely mimic Deniro and do deranged if you don't agree that's fine but I know what I'm saying.
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Post by Prime etc. on Oct 11, 2019 18:33:35 GMT
RDJ could definitely mimic Deniro and do deranged if you don't agree that's fine but I know what I'm saying. You think he could appear as menacing in the rape scene in Cape Fear? I dont think so, unless he wore heavy make up which is not what I meant. He might be able to play a psycho but not that kind of psycho. Apples and oranges.
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Post by Lux on Oct 11, 2019 18:37:24 GMT
RDJ could definitely mimic Deniro and do deranged if you don't agree that's fine but I know what I'm saying. You think he could appear as menacing in the rape scene in Cape Fear?
Yes.
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Post by Prime etc. on Oct 11, 2019 18:42:16 GMT
So basically if he was inserted into the movie instead of DeNiro there would be no discernible difference? I guess RDJ would be ideal in DeNiro's mafia film roles too.
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Post by Lux on Oct 11, 2019 18:44:18 GMT
So basically if he was inserted into the movie instead of DeNiro there would be no discernible difference?
There would be no difference.
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