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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Oct 27, 2019 13:07:12 GMT
Just pondering some points and aspects about the parallel universes created in ENDGAME:
The 1945(?) Universe:
I guess the 2019 Universe Captain America warned and adviced the Avengers of this universe to take care of the Infinite Gems in a better way. So maybe he managed to make them avoid the Thanos threat from the start. I'm positive about it.
The 2012 Universe:
Loki escaped with the Cube. Such a big change! I don't know if the 2019 Universe Captain America sent some tips and advices to the Avengers of this newborn universe. This could mean that the 2012 Universe could revolve on time travel and create new branches as well. Who knows.
The 2013 Universe:
Same as above. Maybe Thor's mother saved herself? Who knows. How did the 2019 Universe Captain America manage to return the gem and the hammer, here, it's a TRUE mystery IMHO.
The 2014 Universe:
Saved. The 2019 Universe Avengers eradicated the Thanos of this universe.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Oct 27, 2019 14:12:12 GMT
Then there’s where ever Loki went with the Cube. I forgot that! Damn...
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Post by hobowar on Oct 27, 2019 14:12:42 GMT
Everything's going to be hunky dory for the 2014 universe. I thought that coming out of the cinema. 😂😂😂
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Oct 27, 2019 14:13:30 GMT
Everything's going to be hunky dory for the 2014 universe. I thought that coming out of the cinema. 😂😂😂 LMAO. Hell yes.
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Post by hobowar on Oct 27, 2019 14:39:32 GMT
Everything's going to be hunky dory for the 2014 universe. I thought that coming out of the cinema. 😂😂😂 Will Colson still be dead? Tahiti's a magical place.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Oct 27, 2019 17:34:49 GMT
Everything's going to be hunky dory for the 2014 universe. I thought that coming out of the cinema. 😂😂😂 What about Ego? If the Guardians of the Galaxy are never a thing in that universe, wouldn’t that mean there would be no one to stop him?
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Post by hobowar on Oct 27, 2019 17:44:12 GMT
Everything's going to be hunky dory for the 2014 universe. I thought that coming out of the cinema. 😂😂😂 What about Ego? If the Guardians of the Galaxy are never a thing in that universe, wouldn’t that mean there would be no one to stop him? Maybe he'd never touch the stone which means Ego wouldn't find out about him? That's my guess anyway? But then who's gonna stop Ronan? maybe Captain Marvel had free weekend?
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Post by twothousandonemark on Oct 28, 2019 21:01:01 GMT
Then there’s where ever Loki went with the Cube. Disney+ As for Cap, there's not a thing he changed or aided with his putting the stones back.
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Post by dazz on Oct 28, 2019 22:41:04 GMT
Just pondering some points and aspects about the parallel universes created in ENDGAME: The 1945(?) Universe:I guess the 2019 Universe Captain America warned and adviced the Avengers of this universe to take care of the Infinite Gems in a better way. So maybe he managed to make them avoid the Thanos threat from the start. I'm positive about it. The 2012 Universe:Loki escaped with the Cube. Such a big change! I don't know if the 2019 Universe Captain America sent some tips and advices to the Avengers of this newborn universe. This could mean that the 2012 Universe could revolve on time travel and create new branches as well. Who knows. The 2013 Universe:Same as above. Maybe Thor's mother saved herself? Who knows. How did the 2019 Universe Captain America manage to return the gem and the hammer, here, it's a TRUE mystery IMHO. The 2014 Universe:Saved. The 2019 Universe Avengers eradicated the Thanos of this universe. Is there a 1945 alt timeline? my impression was that's the main timeline and Cap was always Peggy's husband that we just never see, Cap going back to her being like a Terminator thing.
2012 we will find out thanks to Disney+ and the Loki series, but things will change, likely be more prepared as The Ancient One now knows of Thanos's plan and that he can succeed where as in the main timeline she cannot see past her own death, now she knows the danger Thanos truly represents she could prepare her timeline much better, also no Loki in jail means he doesn't accidentally get his mother killed or Odin banished so maybe no Hela escaping and most of Asguard being wiped out, so the good guys have a huge army of Asguardians on hand to battle Thanos.
2013, yeah this is the strangest one really how does he get the Aether back into Jane? Minds out of the gutter lads for Christ sake, doubt Thor's mom survives though as Loki is still locked up to cock things up, probably ends up repeating much of the same as the main universe I would imagine, the changes that happen here aren't that big when you think about it.
2014 like you said saved, without Thanos though guiding Ronan he's unlikely to get his hands on the Power Stone so he wont be too much of a threat, Cap Marvel may end up taking him out, or without Gamora the GOTG may still form just with no love interest for Quill but be more outlaws as they would still be wanted criminals after escaping prison, and they kill him themselves and maybe get pardons that way? Ego probably wont learn of Quill due to the lack of the Power Stone so he wont be able to destroy the universe either, so things should be fine?
What about the 1960's was it time period where they stole Pym particles and Tony met his dad? you think that timeline varies much? imagine if Howard is less of a dick to Tony due to meeting future Tony but not knowing it, how different would the world be if Tony didn't grow up with such a chip on his shoulder, or if Hank leaves shield years earlier due to his work being stolen as he never trusted them really, little changes could make for much bigger alterations given just what those changes could influence.
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Post by Vassaggo on Oct 28, 2019 23:15:27 GMT
If each time time travel back causes a new universe which was established in the movie there are a lot more parallel universes. When Captain goes back to replace the stones another Parallel universe is created.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Oct 29, 2019 0:02:27 GMT
Jesus, I totally forgot that there was a 5th universe!!!
NO. Cap is not just travelling back in time, he's travelling through dimensions. He's travelling to THOSE specific brand-new universes and putting the stones back for THEM and their survival.
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Post by dazz on Oct 29, 2019 1:19:54 GMT
If each time time travel back causes a new universe which was established in the movie there are a lot more parallel universes. When Captain goes back to replace the stones another Parallel universe is created. Each time you time travel doesn't create a new timeline or AU it's the changes you make which do this, so Steve going back to return the stones isn't creating new timelines, the act of taking the stones caused a splintering of the timelines as they deviated from the main timeline of the MCU, any further action doesn't create any additional timelines.
This is also why Steve being Peggy's husband all along can make sense, as if it was always the way it was meant to happen it's not altering the past so it doesn't create a different timeline, which is why Old Cap can be sitting on the bench without having to jump back into his own timeline, because he never left it.
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Post by Vassaggo on Oct 29, 2019 1:50:38 GMT
If each time time travel back causes a new universe which was established in the movie there are a lot more parallel universes. When Captain goes back to replace the stones another Parallel universe is created. Each time you time travel doesn't create a new timeline or AU it's the changes you make which do this, so Steve going back to return the stones isn't creating new timelines, the act of taking the stones caused a splintering of the timelines as they deviated from the main timeline of the MCU, any further action doesn't create any additional timelines.
This is also why Steve being Peggy's husband all along can make sense, as if it was always the way it was meant to happen it's not altering the past so it doesn't create a different timeline, which is why Old Cap can be sitting on the bench without having to jump back into his own timeline, because he never left it.
I guess I was thinking that his presences alone putting them back would cause changes in the timeline creating a new one. Any change no matter how small should cause a change to the time line. All the way down to the Quantum level. Him displacing atoms that wouldn't have been displaced could lead to a typhoon in India.
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Post by dazz on Oct 29, 2019 2:34:57 GMT
Each time you time travel doesn't create a new timeline or AU it's the changes you make which do this, so Steve going back to return the stones isn't creating new timelines, the act of taking the stones caused a splintering of the timelines as they deviated from the main timeline of the MCU, any further action doesn't create any additional timelines.
This is also why Steve being Peggy's husband all along can make sense, as if it was always the way it was meant to happen it's not altering the past so it doesn't create a different timeline, which is why Old Cap can be sitting on the bench without having to jump back into his own timeline, because he never left it.
I guess I was thinking that his presences alone putting them back would cause changes in the timeline creating a new one. Any change no matter how small should cause a change to the time line. All the way down to the Quantum level. Him displacing atoms that wouldn't have been displaced could lead to a typhoon in India. Well that's sort of like the infinite parallel universe thing where every possibility ever takes place, each universe created by a diverging point, every choice being played out, every possibility realised, which to that end every choice itself creates a new parallel universe, doesn't even require time travel, but yeah that does make sense, although for all we know Steve time travelled back to the exact time that the others did the first time and was just unseen by us, meaning he was always there to return the stones regardless and wouldn't be changing anything as it turns out.
Edit: Do you ever miss the times when we didn't think too much about this stuff? like did anyone question how Old Biff could get back to the future to return the DeLorean so Marty & Doc could go back to the 80's in BTTF2 after he altered the past and therefor should have erased that future from existence? no, we just went eh yeah I guess that works, whatever and went about watching the movie...
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Post by Vassaggo on Oct 29, 2019 2:46:10 GMT
I guess I was thinking that his presences alone putting them back would cause changes in the timeline creating a new one. Any change no matter how small should cause a change to the time line. All the way down to the Quantum level. Him displacing atoms that wouldn't have been displaced could lead to a typhoon in India. Well that's sort of like the infinite parallel universe thing where every possibility ever takes place, each universe created by a diverging point, every choice being played out, every possibility realised, which to that end every choice itself creates a new parallel universe, doesn't even require time travel, but yeah that does make sense, although for all we know Steve time travelled back to the exact time that the others did the first time and was just unseen by us, meaning he was always there to return the stones regardless and wouldn't be changing anything as it turns out.
Edit: Do you ever miss the times when we didn't think too much about this stuff? like did anyone question how Old Biff could get back to the future to return the DeLorean so Marty & Doc could go back to the 80's in BTTF2 after he altered the past and therefor should have erased that future from existence? no, we just went eh yeah I guess that works, whatever and went about watching the movie...
There are ways around it story telling wise. Like the option you brought up. I guess I just assumed the many worlds theory of quatium mechanics. That stuck in my head because it's so trippy to think about and now I apply it to most situations in stories like this. The first time I watched BTTF2 I didn't catch that. It took years later and rewatching it for it to dawn on me. That was after I got to the point where I started looking at movies with a more critical eye. I have to say that yeah movies were more fun when you didn't think about stuff like that. You just went with the flow. Once it's turned on though it's reallly hard to turn off.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Oct 29, 2019 11:10:39 GMT
If each time time travel back causes a new universe which was established in the movie there are a lot more parallel universes. When Captain goes back to replace the stones another Parallel universe is created. Each time you time travel doesn't create a new timeline or AU it's the changes you make which do this, so Steve going back to return the stones isn't creating new timelines, the act of taking the stones caused a splintering of the timelines as they deviated from the main timeline of the MCU, any further action doesn't create any additional timelines.
Dazz, your ONLY presence in the past is a CHANGE. They create a branch universe in the moment they materialize in the past, no matter what they do. Said that, Cap travelled through the already-established universes and restored the stones, without creating branches.
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Post by dazz on Oct 29, 2019 11:28:17 GMT
Each time you time travel doesn't create a new timeline or AU it's the changes you make which do this, so Steve going back to return the stones isn't creating new timelines, the act of taking the stones caused a splintering of the timelines as they deviated from the main timeline of the MCU, any further action doesn't create any additional timelines.
Dazz, your ONLY presence in the past is a CHANGE. They create a branch universe in the moment they materialize in the past, no matter what they do. Said that, Cap travelled through the already-established universes and restored the stones, without creating branches. Not if your future self's presence in the past was already part of the sequence of events, this is the Terminator approach, Kyle Reese going back in time didn't change the future because it's was a predestined event, Kyle always went back in time and was always the father to John, this is why Sarah who up to that point is a simply waitress goes to becoming a commando type who taught John all the skills he needed to lead humanity in the future.
This is different to Marty going back in time in BTTF as Marty creates changes in the past which alter the future, if you go back in time and do not change events from happening as they are meant to you do not create an alternative future, which considering Cap going back to already altered timelines where we don't know where they end up Cap going back to return the stones does not create a new timeline per say.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Oct 29, 2019 11:36:22 GMT
No, they are not FIXED timelines like Terminator 1, 12 Monkeys (film) or The Philadelphia Experiment. They are branch timelines, created by having time travellers materializing in past points.
When Cap return the stones, he does that minutes AFTER the "time travelling" Avengers have stolen them in order to save the main/prime timeline.
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Post by dazz on Oct 29, 2019 13:09:01 GMT
No, they are not FIXED timelines like Terminator 1, 12 Monkeys (film) or The Philadelphia Experiment. They are branch timelines, created by having time travellers materializing in past points. When Cap return the stones, he does that minutes AFTER the "time travelling" Avengers have stolen them in order to save the main/prime timeline. I think every version of time travel allows for predestined moments, fixed points in time which are not altered, Terminator for instance branches out from fixed timelines into branching ones with T2, but despite that the events of T1 are predestined, Kyle always had to go back in time to father John or else there is no hero to stop Skynet.
Multiverse time travel allows for both sides of a dynamic and fixed timeline, you can change events in the past, you just cannot change the events of your past, hence creating branching timelines without altering your own, but you never know if you going back will create a branching timeline or if it was always a predestined event in your own history just without you knowing it.
And wrong about Cap, The ancient One said they could not remove the stones or else the fabric of the universe of some shit would unravel, Banner promised to bring it back EXACTLY when he took the stones to prevent this, at worst Cap is literally stepping back into that time with the stones the as the past Avengers are leaving with them, or more likely returning to the same time as when they originally arrived in their designated times, considering the only excuse against this would be the potential double amount of stones, but Cap is carry ALL the stones on him at the same time, not making back and forth trips, so multiple copies of the stones doesn't seem to matter, so Cap could have always arrived in the same moments just not the exact same places as the other teams of Avengers to return the stones, therefor making his presence returning the stones not another alteration to time but a part of the original time heist.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Oct 29, 2019 17:08:31 GMT
It was cut from the film but apparently Thanos kills the 2014 Avengers before going to the 2023 timeline.
So the 2014 is actually fucked because the Avengers are Dead and the Guardians of the Galaxy were never formed.
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