Jean is Phoenix from the birth (movieverse)

Nov 12, 2019 14:10:07 GMT Martin Brundle - Martinfly said:

Some delucidations:


In the movieverse

Jean Grey is a mutant. Power: telekinesis, psychokinesis, telepathy and immense psychic energy. Her power, at their absolute peak, manifest themselves under the guise of a "firebird" aura. That's her (Jean's) natural, mutant energy signature.


ORIGINAL TIMELINE

Xavier suppressed her powers. This trauma created an alternate (evil) personality who referred to itself as "(The) Phoenix", inspired by her own energy signature.

Jean became an X-Man in 1990, maybe using the "Marvel Girl" codename.

In X2, Jean Grey started to show her Phoenix powers, despite not yet being overcome or affected by her "alternate personality".
In The Last Stand, after her first "death", the Jean Grey personality had become totally dominated by the Phoenix "alternate personality". The Phoenix killed Scott and Charles and also wanted to kill the X-Men as well.


NEW TIMELINE

Xavier never suppressed her powers, because he retained the memories of the Timeline Prime Xavier who did that.

In Apocalypse, Jean finally tapped into her full "Phoenix" potential, thus destroying Apocalypse.
In Dark Phoenix, Jean absorbed the Cosmic Force (AN ENTITY WITH NO SHAPE) which amplified her Phoenix powers as well as her emotions/traumas (The 1975 Incident). She lost control over her mutant nature.

The Cosmic Force is not the Phoenix Force at all. It's a shapeless entity.

Timeline Sigma Xavier is guilty because he "manipulated" Jean's trauma and memories in regards to the 1975 incident.




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The Deadpool movies, Logan, Legion (series) and The Gifted (series) are three parallel universes; each one featuring an alternate version of the X-Men.

The Main X-Men Universe (X-Men + Wolverine) has been altered via time travel ("Days of Future Past").



X-CONTINUITY
x-continuity.blogspot.com


There are extensive sections explaining more about incongruences and contradictions in the saga.

I don't think that word means what you think it means, I think you meant just elucidations as that means to clarify basically, delucidations which isn't a word recognised by most dictionaries I don't think, means to muddy and confuse an issue.

Also I think some of what you said is wrong, Phoenix wasn't "evil" but primal, iirc it was refered to as an instinctive personality driven by Jeans raw emotions, which the greater depth of her power lay, which is why the blocks were put in place, because Jean couldn't control them as they were fuelled by her unconscious/subconscious and not conscious mind.#

The Marvel Girl thing I think is again just you pulling randomness out your backside, was this ever given any hint to being a thing in the movies? same with the time frame, nothing in the movie suggest this, just random speculation by you which you keep referring to as if it's canon, it isn't.

This isn't stated but I think makes sense given actual things shown on screen that Jean using Cerebro is what begins to break down her mental barriers, the strain was so strong it caused Jean to pass out, most likely it also cracked the psychic blocks Xavier put in place, enough for Jean to utilise more of her full power but not enough for "Phoenix" to usurp control, by using more of her power she likely broke down the walls more and more, or maybe Phoenix only broke free as a last ditch survival mechanism which could also be why it started breaking out when Jean used Cerebro, it had to break down the walls to give Jean the power needed to survive Cerebro?

And did Phoenix want  to kill the X-Men or even Xavier? Phoenix only lashed out when attacked in some form, Charles was trying to lock it away again and so it lashed out, at the end of the movie it only starts killing when the humans try to kill her, not evil but instinctive, but those instincts have a immense and primal response which is too dangerous for the world to handle, if it was that Phoenix wanted to kill the X-Men why didn't she? she only killed Xavier when he tried to cage her again, and she wiped out humans, brotherhood and well not even any X-Men in the final battle as it turns out, if Phoenix wanted the X-Men dead she had the power to do so in an instant and yet she didn't, I feel you greatly misread the persona in X3.

As bad as X3's explanation was atleast it makes more sense than DP's, so this time Jean can control her power even though this Jean has deep emotional trauma the other did not, which would make sense IF Xavier didn't lock away her memories because the trauma being something Xavier helps Jean with, teaching her to control her emotions even on a primal level before her powers fully manifested would make sense, if they had made the energy not something that amped up her power but say a separate consciousness of some kind that posses Jean it's lack of training to control it's emotions and Jean struggling to reassert mental dominance being what causes her natural and full powers to come out, instead we get this bollocks...fucking hell.

Nov 14, 2019 4:18:55 GMT Agent of Chaos said:

Nov 13, 2019 23:25:12 GMT dazz said:

I don't think that word means what you think it means, I think you meant just elucidations as that means to clarify basically, delucidations which isn't a word recognised by most dictionaries I don't think, means to muddy and confuse an issue.

Also I think some of what you said is wrong, Phoenix wasn't "evil" but primal, iirc it was refered to as an instinctive personality driven by Jeans raw emotions, which the greater depth of her power lay, which is why the blocks were put in place, because Jean couldn't control them as they were fuelled by her unconscious/subconscious and not conscious mind.#

The Marvel Girl thing I think is again just you pulling randomness out your backside, was this ever given any hint to being a thing in the movies? same with the time frame, nothing in the movie suggest this, just random speculation by you which you keep referring to as if it's canon, it isn't.

This isn't stated but I think makes sense given actual things shown on screen that Jean using Cerebro is what begins to break down her mental barriers, the strain was so strong it caused Jean to pass out, most likely it also cracked the psychic blocks Xavier put in place, enough for Jean to utilise more of her full power but not enough for "Phoenix" to usurp control, by using more of her power she likely broke down the walls more and more, or maybe Phoenix only broke free as a last ditch survival mechanism which could also be why it started breaking out when Jean used Cerebro, it had to break down the walls to give Jean the power needed to survive Cerebro?

And did Phoenix want  to kill the X-Men or even Xavier? Phoenix only lashed out when attacked in some form, Charles was trying to lock it away again and so it lashed out, at the end of the movie it only starts killing when the humans try to kill her, not evil but instinctive, but those instincts have a immense and primal response which is too dangerous for the world to handle, if it was that Phoenix wanted to kill the X-Men why didn't she? she only killed Xavier when he tried to cage her again, and she wiped out humans, brotherhood and well not even any X-Men in the final battle as it turns out, if Phoenix wanted the X-Men dead she had the power to do so in an instant and yet she didn't, I feel you greatly misread the persona in X3.

As bad as X3's explanation was atleast it makes more sense than DP's, so this time Jean can control her power even though this Jean has deep emotional trauma the other did not, which would make sense IF Xavier didn't lock away her memories because the trauma being something Xavier helps Jean with, teaching her to control her emotions even on a primal level before her powers fully manifested would make sense, if they had made the energy not something that amped up her power but say a separate consciousness of some kind that posses Jean it's lack of training to control it's emotions and Jean struggling to reassert mental dominance being what causes her natural and full powers to come out, instead we get this bollocks...fucking hell.

It was Magneto’s machine in X1 that unlocked her power as stated in X2 and apparently in the novelization of X3.

It said the Phoenix personality was primal and an instinctual creature of all desire, joy, and rage. But it doesn’t really say it’s from the real Jean’s raw emotions. She also killed Cyclops and Magneto’s forces at the end for not apparent reason. It was pretty evil.

As for DP, in the new timeline Jean did struggle with her powers as shown in Apocalypse and in the opening of DP. The reason why Xavier locked away her traumatic memories is because it would have made it worse. He said the mind of a psychic is fragile and it takes the slightest tap to send it in the wrong direction. We’ve seen two examples in two previous films. In the DOFP Xavier fell into depression after the events of First Class and that caused his telepathy to go out of control like with Jean’s in DP. In Logan his powers went out of control because of the seizures, which lead to him killing the X-Men.

IIRC the only thing stated in the movie was her powers had been "growing" since the island, but then that happens the same day as she used Cerebro, and didn't they actually say in the movie that Magneto's machine had no effect on mutants?

I don't really take the novelisations too seriously unless they actually make sense and correspond to other canon material, have you read the novelisation for Halloween? apparently theres a whole lot of kind of explicit explanantion over Michael being physically aroused by the idea of killing, to the point it hurts, which is also part of what fuels him, killing to release his pent up sexual desire which never works, instead of you know Michael just being a nigh supernatural bogeyman.

As for X3, if the Phoenix is Jeans primal and instinctual raw emotions and her greater powers tied to that wouldn't say seeing Scott again be a possible cause for an eruption of said power neither the Phoenix nor Jean meant to unleash? like if the Phoenix persona is so raw and instinctual why play the game of making Scott take off his glasses and kiss him to only then kill him? makes more sense imo that when they kissed the raw emotion brought out Phoenix and it instinctively unleashed it's power, especially if it could sense on some level the threat Scott posed with Jean using her powers to hold back his eye beams.

Phoenix in X3 only lashed out like that intentionally when threatened, Jean let the fighting go on without input until Magneto was depowered and he told her that is what they want to do to her, then the humans open fired on her in a huge wave at which point Phoenix took full control and killed them specifically then started ripping the place to shreds, but she wasn't iirc targeting anyone, but putting out waves of destructive energy like pulses, if people got caught they got caught but Phoenix seemed more defensive than offensive in that.

Keep in mind human emotions, raw and instinctive emotions don't have higher consciousness behind them, our primal emotions do not include morality, we aren't born with that intrinsic knowledge, we learn it, Phoenix lashing out like it did would make sense, and wouldn't be evil per say, Jean or Phoenix I should say wasn't the one monologing or planning attacks, that was Magneto, Phoenix pretty much stood by and watched, both what he and the Brotherhood did and what the X-Men did, she didn't take sides, and only reacted when threatened.

When in DOFP is it stated Xavier's telepathy went out of control? It seemed more like Xavier just gave up and so he shut off his powers to not be constantly reminded of his inactions, and I wouldn't call being paralyzed, falling into depression after being betrayed and abandoned by your closest friends, then seeing most of the mutants you had come to know of be killed within a year or two, then another major war break out sending more and more young people to die or Alzheimer's as the "slightest tap's" they are both pretty severe issues, and one I don't buy caused any issues to his powers.

But Jean in the new timeline doesn't have issues controlling her powers she has issues understanding them, but she clearly controls them as Xavier didn't put blocks on her powers and she isn't vaporising the dorms after every nightmare, the issue in Apocalypse wasn't Jean not having control but Jean keeping control too tightly, hence Xavier urging her to unleash her power which she did and saved the day.

Like I said the new wrinkle being Xavier blocked her memories but yet taught her how to control her emotions, something not traumatised 30+ year old Jean couldn't do somehow just doesn't work imo, it feels too contrived to force Xavier into a bad guy situation, I mean really how dumb a plan is that, I will block out her memories not like anything could happen to I dunno unlock those memories at a later date, not like Xavier hasn't dealt with other telepaths in his life, who you know could maybe unblock her memories of something, or something else could unblock them somehow, I mean how fucking stupid did they have to make Xavier with all of this?

Nov 14, 2019 7:13:01 GMT Agent of Chaos said:

Nov 14, 2019 5:41:42 GMT dazz said:

IIRC the only thing stated in the movie was her powers had been "growing" since the island, but then that happens the same day as she used Cerebro, and didn't they actually say in the movie that Magneto's machine had no effect on mutants?

I don't really take the novelisations too seriously unless they actually make sense and correspond to other canon material, have you read the novelisation for Halloween? apparently theres a whole lot of kind of explicit explanantion over Michael being physically aroused by the idea of killing, to the point it hurts, which is also part of what fuels him, killing to release his pent up sexual desire which never works, instead of you know Michael just being a nigh supernatural bogeyman.

As for X3, if the Phoenix is Jeans primal and instinctual raw emotions and her greater powers tied to that wouldn't say seeing Scott again be a possible cause for an eruption of said power neither the Phoenix nor Jean meant to unleash? like if the Phoenix persona is so raw and instinctual why play the game of making Scott take off his glasses and kiss him to only then kill him? makes more sense imo that when they kissed the raw emotion brought out Phoenix and it instinctively unleashed it's power, especially if it could sense on some level the threat Scott posed with Jean using her powers to hold back his eye beams.

Phoenix in X3 only lashed out like that intentionally when threatened, Jean let the fighting go on without input until Magneto was depowered and he told her that is what they want to do to her, then the humans open fired on her in a huge wave at which point Phoenix took full control and killed them specifically then started ripping the place to shreds, but she wasn't iirc targeting anyone, but putting out waves of destructive energy like pulses, if people got caught they got caught but Phoenix seemed more defensive than offensive in that.

Keep in mind human emotions, raw and instinctive emotions don't have higher consciousness behind them, our primal emotions do not include morality, we aren't born with that intrinsic knowledge, we learn it, Phoenix lashing out like it did would make sense, and wouldn't be evil per say, Jean or Phoenix I should say wasn't the one monologing or planning attacks, that was Magneto, Phoenix pretty much stood by and watched, both what he and the Brotherhood did and what the X-Men did, she didn't take sides, and only reacted when threatened.

When in DOFP is it stated Xavier's telepathy went out of control? It seemed more like Xavier just gave up and so he shut off his powers to not be constantly reminded of his inactions, and I wouldn't call being paralyzed, falling into depression after being betrayed and abandoned by your closest friends, then seeing most of the mutants you had come to know of be killed within a year or two, then another major war break out sending more and more young people to die or Alzheimer's as the "slightest tap's" they are both pretty severe issues, and one I don't buy caused any issues to his powers.

But Jean in the new timeline doesn't have issues controlling her powers she has issues understanding them, but she clearly controls them as Xavier didn't put blocks on her powers and she isn't vaporising the dorms after every nightmare, the issue in Apocalypse wasn't Jean not having control but Jean keeping control too tightly, hence Xavier urging her to unleash her power which she did and saved the day.

Like I said the new wrinkle being Xavier blocked her memories but yet taught her how to control her emotions, something not traumatised 30+ year old Jean couldn't do somehow just doesn't work imo, it feels too contrived to force Xavier into a bad guy situation, I mean really how dumb a plan is that, I will block out her memories not like anything could happen to I dunno unlock those memories at a later date, not like Xavier hasn't dealt with other telepaths in his life, who you know could maybe unblock her memories of something, or something else could unblock them somehow, I mean how fucking stupid did they have to make Xavier with all of this?

Funny that you mentioned the Halloween novelization because that supernatural stuff was something the sequels developed, which they are ignoring now and saying that Michael just takes pleasure in killing. So that might be canon now. But I digress.

The reason why she killed Cyclops is because the studio demanded it since the actor was unavailable. They wanted to have him die between movies but the writers thought it was better to have Jean kill him. However, they didn’t develop an in-story reason as to why.

As for Xavier’s powers going out of control here is a video on it.



Jean did indeed have issues controlling her powers. Said so in Apocalypse a few times and that is why she connected with Scott. Xavier didn’t put blocks on her powers because he looked into Logan’s mind and saw that would lead to the creation of the Phoenix personality as shown in the video above.

That's not really the same thing as his powers being out of control but him not having 100% use due to his own state, Xavier in Logan is his powers being out of control, and Jean in Apocalypse is nothing like Jean in X3, in both cases the ones from the DOFP timeline aren't out of control but not under full mastered, neither is causing harm by explosions of power or such, they just don't have it mastered, where as in X3 and Logan both Jean and Xavier's powers are exploding beyond their own conscious control and killing people because of it, until DP apparently.

As for the Halloween stuff only 6 really did anything with that supernatural stuff beyond Michael being quasi supernatural, that's also because it was written by a Halloween superfan, 5 kind of motions to it but not really, as the thorn symbol was literally included just to be a mystery the guy behind 5 had no interest in expanding on, he just added it to make people go what is this mark about, I dunno if Michael is just meant to be normal now, I doubt it, he's a 62+ year old man who just stood around for like 55+ years, yet he knows how to drive, he's extremely strong, durable, stealthy as well as strategic, I mean he got 2 fingers blown off with a shotgun and didn't make a peep, he's not normal for damn sure even for a psycho.

Nov 15, 2019 2:58:54 GMT Agent of Chaos said:

Nov 14, 2019 19:07:47 GMT dazz said:

That's not really the same thing as his powers being out of control but him not having 100% use due to his own state, Xavier in Logan is his powers being out of control, and Jean in Apocalypse is nothing like Jean in X3, in both cases the ones from the DOFP timeline aren't out of control but not under full mastered, neither is causing harm by explosions of power or such, they just don't have it mastered, where as in X3 and Logan both Jean and Xavier's powers are exploding beyond their own conscious control and killing people because of it, until DP apparently.

As for the Halloween stuff only 6 really did anything with that supernatural stuff beyond Michael being quasi supernatural, that's also because it was written by a Halloween superfan, 5 kind of motions to it but not really, as the thorn symbol was literally included just to be a mystery the guy behind 5 had no interest in expanding on, he just added it to make people go what is this mark about, I dunno if Michael is just meant to be normal now, I doubt it, he's a 62+ year old man who just stood around for like 55+ years, yet he knows how to drive, he's extremely strong, durable, stealthy as well as strategic, I mean he got 2 fingers blown off with a shotgun and didn't make a peep, he's not normal for damn sure even for a psycho.

Xavier’s telepathy was going out of control making hear the thoughts of other like Jean in DP. Says so in this video at 1:43.



About Jean in X3, they say she can’t control her power but they never showed it. She just couldn’t control the Phoenix personality. The whole thing was pretty muddle.

We read that scene completely differently, to me that's not about Charles's powers going out of control but him being too emotionally fragile or so he thinks, other peoples pain reminds him of his own and he is desperately trying to avoid that, hence him being wasted and isolated, if it was just about his powers Charles wouldn't be such a mess, he'd be acting like a normal person, it's not too different than a therapist not wanting to deal with patients when they themselves are suffering through a depression or something, it's not he's hearing voices he never could before or anything like that, but the normal input of others emotions overwhelming the more fragile state he is in.

As for Jean in X3, I do agree that it's muddled, but also where I think the intention is say the scene with Cyclops, Jean was using far more power than she ever showed before, but once she kissed Scott her emotions went crazy and as a result her powers exploded even further and Phoenix finally I am guessing fully broke free, and that's sort of the issue, anytime Jean's emotions get heightened Phoenix erupts and Phoenix is a more primal creature, she will vaporise people who threaten her and stuff, where as Jean obviously wouldn't, the issue being Jean's greater power lies in her more primal emotions, so to access them she has to access that part of herself which means Phoenix, but Phoenix is so primal and dangerous it cannot be controlled.