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Post by Nalkarj on Apr 18, 2017 22:55:34 GMT
What are your favorite Charlie Chan films? (I based the choices on a poll of the top choices of Charlie Chan buffs at another forum, but you can pick a different choice, using the "Other" category.) Please post comments, thoughts, observations, analyses, questions, complaints, concerns, rants, etc., below!
EDIT: Apologies to everyone who already voted; some technical difficulties, so you'll have to vote again. But I just changed it so that you can now choose up to three. Hope that helps!
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Post by Doghouse6 on Apr 18, 2017 23:59:20 GMT
What's your favorite Charlie Chan film? (I based the choices on a poll of the top choices of Charlie Chan buffs at another forum, but you can pick a different choice, using the "Other" category.) Please post comments, thoughts, observations, analyses, questions, complaints, concerns, rants, etc., below! EDIT: Apologies to everyone who already voted; some technical difficulties, so you'll have to vote again. But I just changed it so that you can now choose up to three. Hope that helps! A vote for "Other." See my comments in the Classic Films thread.
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Post by Nalkarj on Apr 19, 2017 3:59:02 GMT
My Top 10 Chans, by the way
1. Charlie Chan at Treasure Island
2. Charlie Chan in Egypt
3. Charlie Chan in Paris
4. Charlie Chan at the Opera
5. Charlie Chan at the Race Track
6. Charlie Chan at the Wax Museum
7. Black Magic (Meeting at Midnight)
8. Charlie Chan's Secret
9. Charlie Chan in Panama
10. The Black Camel
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Post by teleadm on Apr 19, 2017 17:18:10 GMT
Well I've voted on 2 of the listed, the 3rd would have been Charlie Chan at the Olympics 1937
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Post by Nalkarj on Apr 19, 2017 17:23:01 GMT
Well I've voted on 2 of the listed, the 3rd would have been Charlie Chan at the Olympics 1937 That's fine, you can vote for "other"!
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Post by teleadm on Apr 19, 2017 17:39:07 GMT
Well I've voted on 2 of the listed, the 3rd would have been Charlie Chan at the Olympics 1937 That's fine, you can vote for "other"! Oh! I meant to say that I voted the 3rd vote on "Other", since Charlie Chan at the Olympics 1937 wasn't an option.
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Post by telegonus on Apr 21, 2017 8:18:05 GMT
Salzmank: y'know, I'm such a fan of the Charlie Chan series, was even, for years, a member of a "Chan fan" website, that I find it difficult to pick just one due to my innate moodiness regarding things I like as in this case my usual preference being the last film in the series I saw. Thing is, I don't have a "gold standard" for what makes a good (much less great) Chan picture.
The early Fox entries with Warner Oland have a stately dignity to them that comes partly from the studio, which seems to have been a bit backward, as in not so up to speed technically as the other major studios at at the time. Yet those early Chans work very nicely, and at times seem to actually have taken their pace from their star.
After Oland's death, and with the newly reorganized 20th Century-Fox altering the look and, especially, speed, of their studio's product, Sidney Toler's sharper, wittier and yet at the same time more, as the saying goes, emotionally available Chan, the quality of the series actually picked up with the new pace. My favorite period for Chans is 1937-41.
You want titles, I'll give you titles: Charlie Chan on Broadway, In Honolulu, At Treasure Island, Murder Cruise, At The Wax Museum, Dead Men Tell.
Of the earlier Olands, I like In Egypt and At The Opera. FWIW: I like both sons about equally, with in each case the actor just the right type for the Chan actor he's supporting. Keye Luke's quieter, more pensive Lee is a perfect fit for Oland's owlish playing of the detective, while (Victor) Sen Yung's near All-American, go getting, almost Andy Hardy-like Lee, fits in with the more modern feeling and less "formal" Sidney Toler.
As to actors who played Charlie Chan, no competition so far as I'm concerned: Warner Oland rules. In my book he's the Rathbone or Sean Connery of the series. Just as there have been many Sherlocks and James Bonds there have been a good number of Charlie Chans as well. Oland is my #1 Chan, Toler my #2.
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Post by Nalkarj on Apr 21, 2017 15:06:00 GMT
Thank you for your insightful post, telegonus ! As always, I greatly appreciate it. I first came to Chan not only through Toler but through Toler-in-the-Monograms (I've never seen any of the Winters except for maybe one or two scenes), so I'm probably unduly predisposed not to find them so bad and to find the pace and "stately dignity" (as you rightly call it) of the original Foxes to be a bit off-putting. Luckily, I was able to warm up to Oland and the films quickly, especially because of his innate lovability as a grandfather-figure and because of the pictures' sheer quality, and I'm happy to list ... Egypt, ... Opera, ... Paris, and ... Race Track as the cream of the crop of the Chans. Offhand, too, I would only put one Toler on a list of top 5, and that would be the nigh-universal favorite, ... Treasure Island. With that said, I'd have trouble saying I actually prefer one Chan actor to the other, because I cut my Chanian eyeteeth on Toler. (I still find Meeting at Midnight to be an enjoyable picture.) That's my only unorthodox actor-in-a-series pick, though: I'm with you on Rathbone and Connery! Great choices, by the way (ever noticed how the plotting in ... Treasure Island is a combination of techniques in ... Broadway and ... Paris?)--oh, and you don't need to pick only one! You can pick up to three. Does that whet your interest in the poll any more? Thanks! Salzmank
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Post by telegonus on Apr 21, 2017 20:37:05 GMT
I guess one's favorite detective actor is one's first, and often the earliest. I mean, who prefers Peter Lawford's Nick Charles to William Powell's, or smarmy Peter Strauss as Peter Gunn compared to Craig Stevens.
Toler's output is the best, but then he played Chan much longer than Oland did, with Oland having the advantage of having got there first; at Fox, that is, not in the movies. For some reason his name has stuck in a way Toler's hasn't. Both actors have two syllable first and last names, though there's a euphony to Warner Oland that Sidney Toler doesn't have.
Thanks, Salzmank. Interesting comment on At Treasure Island, one of my top Chans. I'd never thought of it as having a similar plot to others in the series. Fox did remake some of the earlier ones, and overall reworked familiar formulas. The Treasure Island picture is, of all the Fox Chans I've seen, the one that feels most like an A picture. The quality and production values of the Fox series was excellent anyway, especially after the 20th merger, with Charlie's visit to Treasure Island knocking it out of the ballpark.
Ever notice how Fox seemed to use more "horror themed" (quotes for style, not necessarily content) for the Chan pictures as the years went by? It's there a bit In Egypt, is obviously a factor in At The Opera; and then there's Zucco's coke-bottle glasses wearing scientist in Honolulu; and after Treasure Island Charlie visits a was museum, goes on an at times spooky Murder Cruise, then learns about whether Dead Men Tell, my ugly duckling fave of the entire series.
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Post by Nalkarj on Apr 22, 2017 0:45:59 GMT
Sorry--I'll respond when I get an opportunity, telegonus! Many good points, though. Thanks. Just before I go, I want to bump this thread again to ask if anyone is interested in voting. Four of our categories are tied for first place. Who can break the tie?
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Post by Nalkarj on Apr 23, 2017 19:08:12 GMT
I guess one's favorite detective actor is one's first, and often the earliest. I mean, who prefers Peter Lawford's Nick Charles to William Powell's, or smarmy Peter Strauss as Peter Gunn compared to Craig Stevens. Toler's output is the best, but then he played Chan much longer than Oland did, with Oland having the advantage of having got there first; at Fox, that is, not in the movies. For some reason his name has stuck in a way Toler's hasn't. Both actors have two syllable first and last names, though there's a euphony to Warner Oland that Sidney Toler doesn't have. Thanks, Salzmank. Interesting comment on At Treasure Island, one of my top Chans. I'd never thought of it as having a similar plot to others in the series. Fox did remake some of the earlier ones, and overall reworked familiar formulas. The Treasure Island picture is, of all the Fox Chans I've seen, the one that feels most like an A picture. The quality and production values of the Fox series was excellent anyway, especially after the 20th merger, with Charlie's visit to Treasure Island knocking it out of the ballpark. Ever notice how Fox seemed to use more "horror themed" (quotes for style, not necessarily content) for the Chan pictures as the years went by? It's there a bit In Egypt, is obviously a factor in At The Opera; and then there's Zucco's coke-bottle glasses wearing scientist in Honolulu; and after Treasure Island Charlie visits a was museum, goes on an at times spooky Murder Cruise, then learns about whether Dead Men Tell, my ugly duckling fave of the entire series. Thanks for your comments, Telegonus. I think you're right on all points. It may well depend on the person one sees first in a role, and I began with Chan as a little more sarcastic, a little more caustic in his witticisms--and with Mantan Moreland as a sidekick as well! While I agree that Toler's output is the best, my favorite Chan movies now tend to be Oland's, as I said. On the whole, Toler's pictures were of high quality, but that quality stayed fairly level, if you know what I mean. There were fewer great heights (... at Treasure Island being one of those few) and fewer great lows. In other words, the Tolers stay largely at a high-quality-but-overall-median level, whereas the Olands strive for greatness but achieve it only every so often. So there are fewer great movies under Toler's belt but more good movies. I hope that makes any sense. Oh, yes, Fox reworked some formulas, which is just fine and sometimes quite intriguing (and fun) to examine. For example, CC's Murder Cruise is another fairly straightforward adaptation of Charlie Chan Carries On (like the lost '30 version and Eran Trece), but with key elements borrowed from ... in Paris. (It's a key technique that Paris also shares with Treasure Island, as I pointed out.) You're absolutely right about the horror themes in many of the Chans. Maybe it's just the fact that mystery and horror are innately interconnected, especially as they derive from the same source (i.e., Gothic fiction)? (That's an argument I've made before--did I make it on the Monster Kid board? I can't remember.) More prosaically, one can argue Fox was just trying to capitalize on the resurrected horror-craze at the time. Then again, I mean, Monogram did the same thing with Meeting [not Murder! oy!] at Midnight (originally Black Magic, though I'm loath to use that title because of possible confusion with the unrelated 1949 movie), which is probably an ugly-duckling favorite of mine. I am also fond of Dead Men Tell, though. By the way, is the TV Thin Man series really that bad? I think I tried to watch one episode once and never got through with it, to be honest, and I've been reluctant to try again because I love the movies so much.
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Post by telegonus on Apr 24, 2017 5:56:21 GMT
Thanks for the nice comments, Salzmank. The Toler Chans may well have been more routine than Oland's but the consistently high quality, at Fox, I mean, is amazing, especially as the studio cancelled the series briefly, then resurrected it for a last round of 1941-42 features. What can more can I say? You could have fooled me. Horror themes and atmosphere were used a good deal in mystery series back in the studio days. One only has to look at the Sherlock Holmes pictures that more or less "carried on" where the Chans left off. Even many hard-boiled American detective films use horror tropes (rather loosely, I admit). BTW: one area where I believe Oland really outshined Toler was in his ability to portray the detective as a scholarly man, almost professorial; in his modest way both as a man of science and a bit of s philosopher at times, even a psychologist of sorts. Toler came off as quicker witted than Oland, with a waspish streak, with more street sense. As to the Thin Man TV series, it didn't do it for me. Maybe because around the same time, between them, Peter Gunn, on the one hand, and the Warners detectives, notably the Sunset Strip series, were such game changers in the hipster-beatnick department. The Lawford Thin Man always played a bit old-fashioned to me, and not in an endearing way.
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Post by Nalkarj on Apr 25, 2017 23:36:57 GMT
OK, now we've got Charlie Chan at Treasure Island and Charlie Chan at the Opera tied for first place. (Battle of the century between Toler and Oland?--not really!) Who'll break the tie?
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Post by Nalkarj on Apr 27, 2017 17:42:18 GMT
telegonus, you're right about the consistently high quality of the Chans at Fox; I was just considering the Philo Vance films at Paramount (and, later, at PRC) and the Chan films come out, as a whole, superior every time. (There are several Vance movies I love, but, on the whole, yes, the Chan series is superior.) Even the Monogram Chans are superior to the PRC Vances, though I suppose Monogram actually did have a larger budget than PRC. Maybe one day I'll check the TV Thin Man, but--ehh--I haven't got that much interest in it. Thanks again for your comments.
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Post by telegonus on Apr 27, 2017 18:07:31 GMT
You're welcome, Salzmank. Philo Vance runs hot and cold with me. I love The Kennel Murder Case, recall Dragon Murder Case,--the one with the swimming pool?--as somewhat eerie. That's one I'd like to see again. Eeriness works so well in detective pictures. I'm surprised they didn't use it, along with the uncanny, the supernatural (etc.) more often.
Speaking of which both of the two top faves of the Chan series have their share of the eerie. I love both, and Karloff, plus the channeling of the Phantom Of The Opera in At The Opera keeps that one up there with me, as does the (surprising effective) Oscar Levant score. There's not much of it but I like it.
A Treasure Island is probably, taken as a whole, the best Chan of all, however, even as it has Dr. Zodiac it doesn't those "extras" that Opera has, so it's a dead heat for me. Too bad there aren't more votes. I'd like to see more about the nearest runner up for #1 after these two.
BTW, do you really thinks that's Gerald Mohr as Dr. Zodiac? It's obviously a costume, so it could be anyone. Voice, maybe. Mohr had a strong, commanding voice, perfect for radio, but we never actually see him, and he didn't get really active in films as an actor you see and here till the middle Forties.
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Post by Nalkarj on Apr 27, 2017 18:41:41 GMT
Do I think it's Mohr as Zodiac? Umm... Yes, I think it's probably his voice. But I have no idea if it may be someone else in the costume. As you say, it may indeed be anyone. I'm with you on The Kennel Murder Case, and Dragon was, as you say, quite fun as well. (It does, however, have a remarkably lackluster solution and, more than that, ending, as if they just couldn't think of a way to wrap it all up.) Yes, Dragon's the one with the swimming pool, and I also appreciated how eerie and mysterious that fog-drenched pool was. (Interesting shot choices of the pool reminded me of Jimmy Whale's Remember Last Night?, which I loved but Rick hated on the Monster Kid boards.) The Garden Murder Case is OK-- major inspiration for the Sherlock Holmes entry The Woman in Green, also scripted by the same self-plaigirizing screenwriter (Bertram Millhauser)--except for Edmund Lowe's Vance, who is terrible. ...at the Opera is great, as you say. I've been hearing for years, "Well, Karloff's just a red herring, so all he does is lurk around the wings"--but he's the central focus of the movie! Heck, his character goes through a bigger arc than most characters in Chan movies. I think he's great in it, as are Oland and Luke (of course) and William Demarest. It only narrowly escaped my top three for this poll, as I chose ...in Paris for mainly silly, subjective reasons ( Ruth Peterson!), for its ingenious plotting, for that great scene in which Oland throws the drunk guy's pidgin English back in his face, and for the fact that it's not as well-known. But I'd say Paris and Opera are equally as fun.
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Post by telegonus on Apr 27, 2017 19:40:09 GMT
One strange thing about At The Opera, Salzmank: it appears that early on, during that thunderstorm sequence, when Gravelle is escaping from the institution for the criminally insane,--I think that's right--it appears that he kills a guard. It's not made clear, as I recall, but then I haven't watched it for a while. The last time I was aware of it and I don't remember it being referenced later in the film. Maybe he just knocks the guard out. Is it mentioned in a newspaper account at some point later in the film? Boris Karloff cut an imposing figure in those days, with his slow, deliberate movements he looks like a man who could kill someone easily without straining himself. The name Frankenstein is actually mentioned in the film later on, jokingly, and that movie that made Karloff famous had come out just five years earlier; the sequel, one year before. This is worth dwelling on a bit as if the Gravelle character did commit murder then he couldn't just walk at the end, could he? He's bedridden in his final scene but I don't think he's dying. His ultimate fate, as to his character arc, isn't mentioned, or at least I don't think so. As to Gerald Mohr's Dr. Zodiac: I don't know how successful a radio actor Mohr was in 1939. Ten years later he was quite a prominent player. He may well have literally phoned his performance in for all we know...
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Post by Lebowskidoo 🦞 on Apr 28, 2017 14:13:05 GMT
Charlie Chan and the Curse of the Dragon Queen was the only one I've ever seen, ordered it online because Michelle Pfeiffer is in it. Seemed a bit racist in that in the early 80's Peter Ustinov and Richards Hatch played Chan and his son, otherwise, it was okay.
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Post by Nalkarj on Apr 28, 2017 14:20:27 GMT
Charlie Chan and the Curse of the Dragon Queen was the only one I've ever seen, ordered it online because Michelle Pfeiffer is in it. Seemed a bit racist in that in the early 80's Peter Ustinov and Richards Hatch played Chan and his son, otherwise, it was okay. Ah, well, to tell you the truth, Lebowskidoo, I wouldn't really consider The Curse of the Dragon Queen to be "an authentic Charlie Chan picture." Of course, there's nothing to say that one movie is "in" and the other is "out," but most fans consider the pictures made in the '30s and '40s to be "Charlie Chan" and the others to be remakes, or some such. There were parts I liked in Dragon Queen, but for the most part I thought it was a missed opportunity. (Ustinov isn't particularly good, but to be honest he isn't any less faithful as Chan than he is as Poirot.) Most people hate it, though, just to let you know!
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Post by Nalkarj on Apr 28, 2017 15:32:39 GMT
Thanks to whoever broke the tie!
(And, for any grammar sticklers out there, I checked, and it is indeed whoever, not whomever. That's a problem over which I too have unduly fretted.)
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