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Post by Vegas on Dec 9, 2019 22:42:23 GMT
Of course it is. Whether by choice or by nature. It is how one's hair is described. You can't style something which isn't there. Neither does one normally describe something by its absence. Shall I relate the type of hobnail boots I don't wear in bed? And there in lies the connection. When one asks you what you wear in bed while you sleep... and you answer "Nothing"... THAT is your choice of sleepwear. Is it actually sleepwear?.. No. ...but, it is how you define your sleepwear.
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Post by Vegas on Dec 9, 2019 22:46:43 GMT
True... but.... Deeming your behavior "good" or "bad"... or "right" and "wrong"... does involve some form of system to establish each category... and ultimately relies on something above your personal wants and needs. Society and culture can provide that. One can be born into an atheist family, have been taught nothing about God, and still be an ethical, moral person. Of course. But... one does have to decide that society and culture is a higher code to live by. Something greater than themselves...
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Post by Vegas on Dec 9, 2019 23:21:35 GMT
Of course. But... one does have to decide that society and culture is a higher code to live by. Something greater than themselves... Domesticated dogs do too. But you or whoever started this post is trying to establish that atheism is the atheists' belief system. And, to me... this is where the theist "We know God exists because we know that Man knows good from bad, kind from cruel" argument falls apart. Genetically, we might be predisposed to be good, as groups that functioned as groups civil to each other had a tendency to survive and reproduce... passing that trait down to the next generation.
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Post by thefleetsin on Dec 10, 2019 0:08:41 GMT
on the twelfth day of christmas
if surrounding your christmas season
with signs of
armor-laden gestapo
police forces
is your idea of side dishes
and or the main courses
used to decorate
what used to be
the expertise of florists
then perhaps it's time to redefine
what you're calling
the bottom line
in your god ordained quest to
completely
and utterly bore us.
sjw 12/09/19 inspired at this very moment in time by one too many sirens heralding harks.
from the 'blitzkrieg series' of poems
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Post by Vegas on Dec 10, 2019 1:21:49 GMT
The mandate to survive and reproduce is imprinted on all living creatures’ DNA. It has nothing to do with good or bad per se. It just is. I dunno. I'd assume that some of our social instincts are so engrained... it's on a genetic level.. 
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Post by Vegas on Dec 10, 2019 1:30:18 GMT
Of course. But... one does have to decide that society and culture is a higher code to live by. Something greater than themselves...Why would one want to live their lives believing something external outside of themselves is higher or greater than themselves? You are the master of you own universe and only you can come to this realization that you are all and everything and nothing. Don't conflate ego intellect, with what is inherent and divine within your own natural state of being\nature. There is a reason why we call putting others first "the greater good"... We view the "good" as "greater" than us. 
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 10, 2019 13:33:05 GMT
I think the key word in "belief system" is "system," not "belief." Even if we want to define atheism as a belief (I don't, btw), it certainly isn't a system. You can't have a "system" centered on not believing in one thing. Even then.. It can be...and you might: I mean... not having any beliefs doesn't automatically dislodge a person from having a system of conduct that they believe is right or wrong according to their perceived absence of the divine. Sure.. They might not have to go to meetings to affirm their lack of beliefs.. but they can/sometimes do create their own system to live by. No, it can't be. Whatever "system of conduct" one might believe is right or wrong can't be derived solely from a lack of belief in a deity. "I don't believe in a god, therefor it's good to help little old ladies across the street" would be what's known as a non sequitur. As would pretty much any other "system of conduct/belief" one might try to generate from it. At best you could say that with not believing in a god would mean that one doesn't feel obligated to automatically believe any of the morality espoused in holy books, but even then one can choose to believe in that morality, or some of it; but that wouldn't be a direct consequence of their not believing in god, it would be a consequence of them deciding whether or not they thought that morality was right or not.
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Post by Vegas on Dec 10, 2019 14:27:13 GMT
Even then.. It can be...and you might: I mean... not having any beliefs doesn't automatically dislodge a person from having a system of conduct that they believe is right or wrong according to their perceived absence of the divine. Sure.. They might not have to go to meetings to affirm their lack of beliefs.. but they can/sometimes do create their own system to live by. Technically... Sure, it can. Not believing in a deity can directly cause one to come to the realization that there is no God who will protect humanity and therefore create a system of conduct with the purpose that it is the only way to maintain our existence. It is a system of belief based solely on the belief that no gods exist.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 10, 2019 14:47:12 GMT
No, it can't be. Whatever "system of conduct" one might believe is right or wrong can't be derived solely from a lack of belief in a deity. Technically... Sure, it can. Not believing in a deity can directly cause one to come to the realization that there is no God who will protect humanity and therefore create a system of conduct with the purpose that it is the only way to maintain our existence. It is a system of belief based solely on the belief that no gods exist. You're not describing an actual system, though. Obviously, all aspects of any atheist's belief system will not include gods, but this alone doesn't tell us what their actual beliefs will be. To take your example of believing there is no god to protect humanity and wanting to create a system of conduct that does; that doesn't tell us what that system would/should be. Whatever system you actually create will depend on what you believe is best for humanity, but whatever you believe is best for humanity can't be derived directly from not believing in a god. How do you get from "I don't believe in god" to "therefore, X is best for humanity?"
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Post by Vegas on Dec 10, 2019 15:10:05 GMT
Technically... Sure, it can. Not believing in a deity can directly cause one to come to the realization that there is no God who will protect humanity and therefore create a system of conduct with the purpose that it is the only way to maintain our existence. It is a system of belief based solely on the belief that no gods exist. You're not describing an actual system, though. Obviously, all aspects of any atheist's belief system will not include gods, but this alone doesn't tell us what their actual beliefs will be. To take your example of believing there is no god to protect humanity and wanting to create a system of conduct that does; that doesn't tell us what that system would/should be. Whatever system you actually create will depend on what you believe is best for humanity, but whatever you believe is best for humanity can't be derived directly from not believing in a god. How do you get from "I don't believe in god" to "therefore, X is best for humanity?" Well... Yeah. The same can be said of theism. The belief in a God doesn't tell us what that system of belief would/should be.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 10, 2019 15:25:40 GMT
You're not describing an actual system, though. Obviously, all aspects of any atheist's belief system will not include gods, but this alone doesn't tell us what their actual beliefs will be. To take your example of believing there is no god to protect humanity and wanting to create a system of conduct that does; that doesn't tell us what that system would/should be. Whatever system you actually create will depend on what you believe is best for humanity, but whatever you believe is best for humanity can't be derived directly from not believing in a god. How do you get from "I don't believe in god" to "therefore, X is best for humanity?" Well... Yeah. The same can be said of theism. The belief in a God doesn't tell us what that system of belief would/should be. Right, theism itself doesn't, but specific religions do. So religions would be belief systems. Theism and atheism aren't.
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Post by Vegas on Dec 10, 2019 15:31:15 GMT
Well... Yeah. The same can be said of theism. The belief in a God doesn't tell us what that system of belief would/should be. So religions would be belief systems. Theism and atheism aren't. Like theists.. not all atheists are the same... Sure, we don't call their version of atheism a "religion"... but their version is their system.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 10, 2019 15:44:38 GMT
Right, theism itself doesn't, but specific religions do. So religions would be belief systems. Theism and atheism aren't. Like theists.. not all atheists are the same... Sure, we don't call their version of atheism a "religion"... but their version is their system. Sure, but the issue is whether their system is (or can be) derived from their atheism. Theism by itself isn't a system, but one can logically develop a system of belief based on whatever god/religion they believe in. I don't see how you do that with atheism, since your beliefs will be based on whatever you feel is right (undoubtedly influenced by the society you live in), which is separate from your lack of belief in god(s).
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Post by general313 on Dec 10, 2019 15:50:04 GMT
The mandate to survive and reproduce is imprinted on all living creatures’ DNA. It has nothing to do with good or bad per se. It just is. The way I look at it, good and bad (or more precisely, our perception of those) are imprinted on our DNA. Any social animal with a deficient sense of good and bad will have a survival/selection disadvantage.
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