Lugh
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Post by Lugh on Dec 4, 2019 21:38:04 GMT
"Socialism is the necessary result of a sound Christianity." - Frederick Denison Maurice
"God commanded all things to be produced so that sustenance should be common to all, and that the earth should be the common possession of all men" - Saint Ambrose in De Officiis Ministrorum
Saint Basil and others also expressed similar sentiments.
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Post by OldSamVimes on Dec 4, 2019 21:41:38 GMT
Who's going to enforce the 'Socialism'?
Human beings?
...suddenly all your 'equality' is gone..
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Lugh
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Post by Lugh on Dec 4, 2019 21:45:25 GMT
"Nature knows no rich [for] naked she brings us at the light of day and in want of food and covering and drink; and naked the earth receives back what she has brought forth....All alike she creates us and all alike she seals us in the tomb....Who can tell the dead apart? Open up the graves, and, if you can, tell which was a rich man" - Saint Ambrose
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Post by goz on Dec 4, 2019 23:08:44 GMT
Socialism without sound or otherwise Christianity is preferable.
(not to be confused with communism for the dummies)
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Post by gadreel on Dec 5, 2019 0:47:56 GMT
"Socialism is the necessary result of a sound Christianity." - Frederick Denison Maurice "God commanded all things to be produced so that sustenance should be common to all, and that the earth should be the common possession of all men" - Saint Ambrose in De Officiis Ministrorum Saint Basil and others also expressed similar sentiments. The manifesto of Jesus is the very definition of socialism
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Post by lowtacks86 on Dec 5, 2019 0:57:08 GMT
"Socialism is the necessary result of a sound Christianity." - Frederick Denison Maurice "God commanded all things to be produced so that sustenance should be common to all, and that the earth should be the common possession of all men" - Saint Ambrose in De Officiis Ministrorum Saint Basil and others also expressed similar sentiments. The manifesto of Jesus is the very definition of socialism This is why I love arguing with Christian conservatives, their rhetoric is full of absurd contradictions. When they speak out against the "evils" of welfare and social assistance, just ask them "is that what Jesus would want?". They'll do their best to dance around the question and not actually answer.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Dec 5, 2019 1:25:27 GMT
Jesus' teaching are not a political ideology.
At best they are a theocracy and I can't imagine any socialist wanting that.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Dec 5, 2019 1:28:31 GMT
Jesus' teaching are not a political ideology. At best they are a theocracy and I can't imagine any socialist wanting that. "Jesus' teaching are not a political ideology." Yes, but philosophies/moral teachings tend to fit quite well within certain political ideologies and not so much within others. For instance no one would ever conflate Ayn Rand's objectivism (selfishness is a good virtue) with socialism or secular humanism with fascism. "At best they are a theocracy and I can't imagine any socialist wanting that." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_socialism
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Dec 5, 2019 1:33:20 GMT
Jesus' teaching are not a political ideology. At best they are a theocracy and I can't imagine any socialist wanting that. "Jesus' teaching are not a political ideology." Yes, but philosophies/moral teachings tend to fit quite well within certain political ideologies and not so much within others. For instance no one would ever conflate Ayn Rand's objectivism (selfishness is a good virtue) with socialism or secular humanism with fascism. "At best they are a theocracy and I can't imagine most socialists wanting that." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_socialism Fixed
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2019 2:31:04 GMT
One of the great things about living in freedom is that we can each choose to be a George Bailey or a Mr. Potter with the wonderful lives that we have either been given or stumbled upon.
We can be as Capitalist or as Socialist as we wish and our Government won't stop us. Lol, I guess as long as we exercise those ideals with only our own possessions.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Dec 5, 2019 3:54:22 GMT
Jesus' teaching are not a political ideology. At best they are a theocracy and I can't imagine any socialist wanting that. It’s not ideology, but something much deeper, that is a worldview to support one another in a commonwealth and not to tear or destroy others in order to build oneself up. If everyone could adopt adopt this simple attitude, there would be little need for huge government intervention into our personal lives. We think we need corporate capitalism in order to have work, but what if a collective simply opened businesses were everyone could share in the profit and benefits? I don’t see small business being against that. I agree that if everyone acted as Christians are taught in Scripture, then the world would be a better place, but that would be regardless of the political state. Helping everyone would be the responsibility of everyone and there would be no need for a government intermediary since any government that has ever existed has been corrupted or at a minimum corruptible. In short, it won't work from a political standpoint since the responsibility is too personal. Jesus' disciples were technically working in a capitalist society. Under Christianity, even the poor can help the poor and poverty isn't removed at all on the basis of the teaching.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2019 4:49:25 GMT
Socialism isn't charity.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Dec 5, 2019 11:13:34 GMT
The manifesto of Jesus is the very definition of socialism I think there are some issues with branding Jesus a socialist. Socialism is a pretty vague term - some people would consider Stalin a socialist, some FDR, some both, some neither. But I suppose at its most basic, socialism is where a government enforces a significant amount of distribution of wealth along social lines. So do Jesus' teachings in the Gospels fit with this idea of socialism? Well, not really. Jesus does not argue for forced redistribution of wealth (in fact "Render unto Caesar" would seem to be something of a defence of property rights and a condemnation of revolution). What Jesus argues is for the wealthy to voluntarily give up their wealth and become the same as the poor. Of course, this leads to some on the Right saying Jesus was anti-socialist and was fine with wealth so long as people gave back via charity. But this is an even more outlandish view than branding him a socialist. Jesus tells the rich young man not just to give to charity, but to give up all his wealth. He attacks those who make great shows of donating to the poor, but leave themselves with a fair amount of wealth (Mark 12:41-44). Perhaps then it would be fairer to say Jesus was a utopian socialist - he wants the wealthy to give up their wealth, but wants them to do so voluntarily. But there are problems with this view too. Jesus seems to share something of Marx's scepticism about utopian socialism - he laments how hard it is for the rich to enter Heaven, much as Marx argues that utopian socialists underestimate the willingness of the ruling class to ever surrender their power. One can imagine Jesus nodding along to anarcho-communist Lucy Parson's comment ‘Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.’ Where Jesus would differ from Marxists and anarchists is that he does not think that this reluctance of the rich to give up their wealth means the people should revolt. Jesus's solution is that the Kingdom of God will come about and then the ultimate government (God) will enforce a society where the first are last and the last are first. While he might prefer that people bring such a world about themselves willingly, he believes that this will not happen. Jesus is neither revolutionary nor utopian - he believes in the authority of the ultimate enforcer of equality, God. But that will not be in this world.
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Post by mslo79 on Dec 5, 2019 12:39:28 GMT
lowtacks86 You might claim we dance around that but you guys dance around abortion which is far more serious since it's legalized murder of babies. so overall it's pretty obvious which political party is against Christianity, which is clearly democrats. they are the ones who favor evil acts like abortion and other immoral acts like LGBT agenda/euthanasia etc and try to pass laws forcing people to go against Christian moral values etc. you can see as the decades pass they are getting more hostile towards Christianity in general as they don't want it in politics because it gets in the way of their immoral agenda. so republicans are already ahead right off the start. so those who try to claim Christianity favors democrats, it's not happening given abortion is a MAJOR violation of Jesus Christ's moral standards since it's murder. like I always say... once someone fails to get the abortion issue correct, since it's a basic life issue and not a "choice" like the liberals try to sugar-coat a immoral/evil act, they tend to be backwards in many other moral areas. someone is really blind to think democrats, especially in today's world (since those in power are too far left), are more inline with Jesus Christ than conservatives are.
p.s. it's not realistic for the USA to supply the world with free healthcare etc etc, otherwise the USA won't be the USA for long and will end up poor. so naturally, while the USA can give to some degree, it's got to have a limit.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Dec 5, 2019 13:18:06 GMT
lowtacks86 You might claim we dance around that but you guys dance around abortion which is far more serious since it's legalized murder of babies. so overall it's pretty obvious which political party is against Christianity, which is clearly democrats. they are the ones who favor evil acts like abortion and other immoral acts like LGBT agenda/euthanasia etc and try to pass laws forcing people to go against Christian moral values etc. you can see as the decades pass they are getting more hostile towards Christianity in general as they don't want it in politics because it gets in the way of their immoral agenda. so republicans are already ahead right off the start. so those who try to claim Christianity favors democrats, it's not happening given abortion is a MAJOR violation of Jesus Christ's moral standards since it's murder. like I always say... once someone fails to get the abortion issue correct, since it's a basic life issue and not a "choice" like the liberals try to sugar-coat a immoral/evil act, they tend to be backwards in many other moral areas. someone is really blind to think democrats, especially in today's world (since those in power are too far left), are more inline with Jesus Christ than conservatives are.
p.s. it's not realistic for the USA to supply the world with free healthcare etc etc, otherwise the USA won't be the USA for long and will end up poor. so naturally, while the USA can give to some degree, it's got to have a limit.
"but you guys dance around abortion" No we really don't. We explain why it's not "murder", you guys typically respond by muddying up the term "human" and equating it with a fetus, because quite frankly that's all you guys have, silly language games and false equivalencies. "someone is really blind to think democrats, especially in today's world (since those in power are too far left), are more inline with Jesus Christ than conservatives are." Neither party are really in line with the teachings of Jesus, again he was basically a socialist anyways. And no, despite what Fox News tells you, the Dems aren't a "socialist party". "s they don't want it in politics" Yeah, for the same reasons you don't want Islam involved in American politics "(since those in power are too far left)" Name one position that is "too far left" "t's not happening given abortion is a MAJOR violation of Jesus Christ's moral standards since it's murder." Your party overwhelmingly voted for the slaughter of children in Yemen, you don't get to act like the GOP is on some moral high ground when it comes to "murder". "p.s. it's not realistic for the USA to supply the world with free healthcare etc etc, otherwise the USA won't be the USA for long and will end up poor. so naturally, while the USA can give to some degree, it's got to have a limit." I never said anything about the "world", don't strawman me. Now through huge miltiary cuts (maybe about half) and getting rid of upper class tax cuts we could definetly get universal healtcare and maybe even free college for the country. But you're probably against that anyways because um, Venezuela or something.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Dec 5, 2019 13:47:12 GMT
I agree that if everyone acted as Christians are taught in Scripture, then the world would be a better place, but that would be regardless of the political state. Helping everyone would be the responsibility of everyone and there would be no need for a government intermediary since any government that has ever existed has been corrupted or at a minimum corruptible. In short, it won't work from a political standpoint since the responsibility is too personal. Jesus' disciples were technically working in a capitalist society. Under Christianity, even the poor can help the poor and poverty isn't removed at all on the basis of the teaching. Helping everyone would be the responsibility of everyone and there would be no need for a government. Yep, acceptin’ that people ain’t gonna do that: therefore gubermint. And no, the disciples were not working in anything that remotely resembles capitalism. It was against Jewish law to earn a sizable profit. The state controlled, that is the Judaea King, his ministers, and Big Caesar owned everything. Of course they did. They had jobs, made money based on supply and demand. While care could be supported by charity and government, that’s no different than now. Their tax system was even more capitalist based. Matthew was a tax collector but also an independent agent. He would collect taxes for Rome markup the price up and keep the difference. It is entirely likely that he was wealthy...and despised. The woman who was cured of a bleeding disease had to pay doctors for her care. Yes, there were Jewish laws in place that allowed for gleaning leftover food in the fields (Of course that was a religious law getting back to theocracy), but a large portion of Jesus’ illustrations and allegories make it very clear that the world they lived in was money based. I can’t even understand how people miss that very obvious setting unless one doesn’t read it.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Dec 5, 2019 14:11:19 GMT
Helping everyone would be the responsibility of everyone and there would be no need for a government. Yep, acceptin’ that people ain’t gonna do that: therefore gubermint. And no, the disciples were not working in anything that remotely resembles capitalism. It was against Jewish law to earn a sizable profit. The state controlled, that is the Judaea King, his ministers, and Big Caesar owned everything. Of course they did. They had jobs, made money based on supply and demand. While care could be supported by charity and government, that’s no different than now. Their tax system was even more capitalist based. Matthew was a tax collector but also an independent agent. He would collect taxes for Rome markup the price up and keep the difference. It is entirely likely that he was wealthy...and despised. The woman who was cured of a bleeding disease had to pay doctors for her care. Yes, there were Jewish laws in place that allowed for gleaning leftover food in the fields (Of course that was a religious law getting back to theocracy), but a large portion of Jesus’ illustrations and allegories make it very clear that the world they lived in was money based. I can’t even understand how people miss that very obvious setting unless one doesn’t read it. Well, depends what you mean by capitalism I guess. The Soviet Union had money, markets and supply and demand after all. If you think of capitalism as where international trade is conducted mainly by private individuals for their own profit then that was not the case in first century Judea.
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Post by Cody™ on Dec 5, 2019 14:21:26 GMT
"Socialism is the necessary result of a sound Christianity." - Frederick Denison Maurice "God commanded all things to be produced so that sustenance should be common to all, and that the earth should be the common possession of all men" - Saint Ambrose in De Officiis Ministrorum Saint Basil and others also expressed similar sentiments. The manifesto of Jesus is the very definition of socialism Jesus was not a socialist. His teachings were not political.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Dec 5, 2019 14:30:50 GMT
Of course they did. They had jobs, made money based on supply and demand. While care could be supported by charity and government, that’s no different than now. Their tax system was even more capitalist based. Matthew was a tax collector but also an independent agent. He would collect taxes for Rome markup the price up and keep the difference. It is entirely likely that he was wealthy...and despised. The woman who was cured of a bleeding disease had to pay doctors for her care. Yes, there were Jewish laws in place that allowed for gleaning leftover food in the fields (Of course that was a religious law getting back to theocracy), but a large portion of Jesus’ illustrations and allegories make it very clear that the world they lived in was money based. I can’t even understand how people miss that very obvious setting unless one doesn’t read it. Well, depends what you mean by capitalism I guess. The Soviet Union had money, markets and supply and demand after all. If you think of capitalism as where international trade is conducted mainly by private individuals for their own profit then that was not the case in first century Judea. But it was the case for Judea. You would need to explain why that isn’t the case. Even the religious aspect of the theocratic government was aware of the different wealth classes and donations were adjusted accordingly. Granted there was no stock or bond market but that is not an identifier if a money based society. This is all moot though since it doesn’t matter in relation to Christianity since it’s not a political ideology.
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Lugh
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Post by Lugh on Dec 5, 2019 14:44:14 GMT
The manifesto of Jesus is the very definition of socialism Jesus was not a socialist. His teachings were not political. They were ethical and you can base politics on ethics. Conservatism flies in the face of everything Christ believed.
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