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Post by lowtacks86 on Dec 6, 2019 14:37:22 GMT
This is interesting because, I was not necessarily casting blame on well meaning individuals like yourself. IF I was in your system I would give to charity whilst bemoaning that my government and accepted social and political system was not doing a better job at wealth distribution and providing a safety net of welfare and health care for EVERY citizen. IMHO this is what differentiates America from the other Western nations who have managed more successfully to integrate socialist ideology and hence programmes into their capitalist social democratic systems. There are programs in place to help American citizens in need of assistance. The people who take advantage of the system are the ones preventing it from doing a better job. The title of this thread is a hard sell. I imagine Jesus Christ and Robin Hood would make strange bedfellows. "The people who take advantage of the system are the ones preventing it from doing a better job." I actually agree with that, which is why I'm for lowering straight up welfare checks (that can easily be abused) and increasing welfare that is much more difficult to abuse (universal healthcare, free college, housing subsidies, EBT cards). But you're probably against that anyways. "I imagine Jesus Christ and Robin Hood would make strange bedfellows." Strawman
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Post by goz on Dec 6, 2019 20:46:55 GMT
Meanwhile over 90% of the American people suffer, many without even being aware that they are being screwed over. I have no idea where you plucked that 90% figure from. If we're going to get abstract enough, you could go all Buddhist and just say "life is suffering," meaning that 100% of people everywhere suffer. I specifically picked that figure and intentionally left it vague in a general sense of 90% of the wealth being in the hands of 10% of the people in the capitalist system that is America.(no it is probably not an accurate statistic at any one time add your own if you wish as it merely makes the point) It was obviously an inverse statement making a connection between the vast majority of people who don't really benefit from a capitalist system, when they think that they do. I am thinking here in the inherently unfair and inequitable taxation system and other economic mechanisms such as low minimum wage, low welfare, expensive health care etc when I mention the majority who are either low income or middle class wage earners and the general myth of land of the free and place of opportunity for all that enslaves and hushes the masses.
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Post by goz on Dec 6, 2019 20:58:37 GMT
This is interesting because, I was not necessarily casting blame on well meaning individuals like yourself. IF I was in your system I would give to charity whilst bemoaning that my government and accepted social and political system was not doing a better job at wealth distribution and providing a safety net of welfare and health care for EVERY citizen. IMHO this is what differentiates America from the other Western nations who have managed more successfully to integrate socialist ideology and hence programmes into their capitalist social democratic systems. There are programs in place to help American citizens in need of assistance. The people who take advantage of the system are the ones preventing it from doing a better job.The title of this thread is a hard sell. I imagine Jesus Christ and Robin Hood would make strange bedfellows. Oh really? I hope you are not a Christian because it is not very Christian to victim blame. As a socialist in the true sense, and also being versed in statistics and sociology, I am aware that statistically within a population there will, through many reasons, such as genetics, disease, social problems,drugs and alcohol ( often caused by the previous) there will be a percentage of citizens who need help on a sliding scale for indeterminate and differing lengths of time. To tar them with a brush of malingering or cheating is inhumane, usually incorrect and frankly appalling. Most other social democrat countries in the West have adequate provisions in place to exclude the cheats and help the needy.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2019 2:25:22 GMT
There are programs in place to help American citizens in need of assistance. The people who take advantage of the system are the ones preventing it from doing a better job. The title of this thread is a hard sell. I imagine Jesus Christ and Robin Hood would make strange bedfellows. "The people who take advantage of the system are the ones preventing it from doing a better job." I actually agree with that, which is why I'm for lowering straight up welfare checks (that can easily be abused) and increasing welfare that is much more difficult to abuse (universal healthcare, free college, housing subsidies, EBT cards). But you're probably against that anyways. "I imagine Jesus Christ and Robin Hood would make strange bedfellows." Strawman I'm not against that at all, but it's strange that you would even draw that conclusion. Socialism takes from the rich and gives to the poor, so for it to be the necessary result of a sound Christianity, it must be incorrectly assumed that Jesus Christ is an advocate for theft as opposed to charity.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2019 2:27:19 GMT
There are programs in place to help American citizens in need of assistance. The people who take advantage of the system are the ones preventing it from doing a better job.The title of this thread is a hard sell. I imagine Jesus Christ and Robin Hood would make strange bedfellows. Oh really? I hope you are not a Christian because it is not very Christian to victim blame. As a socialist in the true sense, and also being versed in statistics and sociology, I am aware that statistically within a population there will, through many reasons, such as genetics, disease, social problems,drugs and alcohol ( often caused by the previous) there will be a percentage of citizens who need help on a sliding scale for indeterminate and differing lengths of time. To tar them with a brush of malingering or cheating is inhumane, usually incorrect and frankly appalling. Most other social democrat countries in the West have adequate provisions in place to exclude the cheats and help the needy. Then the United States needs to adopt similar provisions to prevent the system from being abused.
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Post by goz on Dec 7, 2019 3:45:23 GMT
"The people who take advantage of the system are the ones preventing it from doing a better job." I actually agree with that, which is why I'm for lowering straight up welfare checks (that can easily be abused) and increasing welfare that is much more difficult to abuse (universal healthcare, free college, housing subsidies, EBT cards). But you're probably against that anyways. "I imagine Jesus Christ and Robin Hood would make strange bedfellows." Strawman I'm not against that at all, but it's strange that you would even draw that conclusion. Socialism takes from the rich and gives to the poor, so for it to be the necessary result of a sound Christianity, it must be incorrectly assumed that Jesus Christ is an advocate for theft as opposed to charity. Just a thought: The rich in America have an obscene amount of wealth that they can never spend nor appreciate in their lifetime nor even their progeny. A refugee, illiterate black/Hispanic/white trash/whatever underprivilegded person on the streets has nothing and might die of exposure and/or disease. Are you a Christian? How do you reconcile that and add to that the poverty worldwide?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2019 4:33:52 GMT
I'm not against that at all, but it's strange that you would even draw that conclusion. Socialism takes from the rich and gives to the poor, so for it to be the necessary result of a sound Christianity, it must be incorrectly assumed that Jesus Christ is an advocate for theft as opposed to charity. Just a thought: The rich in America have an obscene amount of wealth that they can never spend nor appreciate in their lifetime nor even their progeny. A refugee, illiterate black/Hispanic/white trash/whatever underprivilegded person on the streets has nothing and might die of exposure and/or disease. Are you a Christian? How do you reconcile that and add to that the poverty worldwide? Presumably, Jesus Christ would say you should help those in need if it's within your capacity to do so. Those who don't need but take anyway are the monkey wrenches in the system, as I've stated more than once already.
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Post by goz on Dec 7, 2019 7:34:37 GMT
Just a thought: The rich in America have an obscene amount of wealth that they can never spend nor appreciate in their lifetime nor even their progeny. A refugee, illiterate black/Hispanic/white trash/whatever underprivilegded person on the streets has nothing and might die of exposure and/or disease. Are you a Christian? How do you reconcile that and add to that the poverty worldwide? Presumably, Jesus Christ would say you should help those in need if it's within your capacity to do so. Those who don't need but take anyway are the monkey wrenches in the system, as I've stated more than once already. Who are those in your opinion?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2019 8:19:06 GMT
Presumably, Jesus Christ would say you should help those in need if it's within your capacity to do so. Those who don't need but take anyway are the monkey wrenches in the system, as I've stated more than once already. Who are those in your opinion? The White House Council of Economic Advisers calls them "non-disabled working-age adults."
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Post by The Lost One on Dec 7, 2019 8:43:18 GMT
Socialism takes from the rich and gives to the poor Socialists accept that, under capitalism, wealth is generated by society as a whole but controlled by a minority. Socialists seek to redress that. It's only "theft" if you deny capitalism is based on exploitation in the first place.
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Post by The Lost One on Dec 7, 2019 8:52:36 GMT
Who are those in your opinion? The White House Council of Economic Advisers calls them "non-disabled working-age adults." Fix unemployment, underemployment and poverty while in employment first and then you can look at the "monkey wrenches". Easy way to start would be imposing a job guarantee.
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Post by Lugh on Dec 7, 2019 9:56:49 GMT
Just a thought: The rich in America have an obscene amount of wealth that they can never spend nor appreciate in their lifetime nor even their progeny. A refugee, illiterate black/Hispanic/white trash/whatever underprivilegded person on the streets has nothing and might die of exposure and/or disease. Are you a Christian? How do you reconcile that and add to that the poverty worldwide? Presumably, Jesus Christ would say you should help those in need if it's within your capacity to do so. Those who don't need but take anyway are the monkey wrenches in the system, as I've stated more than once already. If you were a true Christian you would be outraged that rich people exist. Christ said a rich man has just as much of a chance of getting into heaven as a camel does of walking through the eye of needle.
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Post by Arlon10 on Dec 7, 2019 12:12:05 GMT
"Socialism is the necessary result of a sound Christianity." - Frederick Denison Maurice "God commanded all things to be produced so that sustenance should be common to all, and that the earth should be the common possession of all men" - Saint Ambrose in De Officiis Ministrorum Saint Basil and others also expressed similar sentiments. One "good" thing about socialism is that helpless and irresponsible people (young people) do best under it. Some terrible things about it are that there are so few choices and it is not the optimum use of resources that a well tempered free market can be.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 7, 2019 12:54:00 GMT
I have no idea where you plucked that 90% figure from. If we're going to get abstract enough, you could go all Buddhist and just say "life is suffering," meaning that 100% of people everywhere suffer. I specifically picked that figure and intentionally left it vague in a general sense of 90% of the wealth being in the hands of 10% of the people in the capitalist system that is America.(no it is probably not an accurate statistic at any one time add your own if you wish as it merely makes the point) It was obviously an inverse statement making a connection between the vast majority of people who don't really benefit from a capitalist system, when they think that they do. I am thinking here in the inherently unfair and inequitable taxation system and other economic mechanisms such as low minimum wage, low welfare, expensive health care etc when I mention the majority who are either low income or middle class wage earners and the general myth of land of the free and place of opportunity for all that enslaves and hushes the masses. There's a lot of flaws with your thinking here. For one, just because one is not part of the 10% hardly means one is necessarily suffering. I--and I imagine most every American posting on this forum--am not part of that 10% and I'm most certainly not suffering. I don't even like the notion that having a lot of money necessarily means no suffering or vice versa; there are plenty of ways people suffer that have nothing to do with money. Second, just because one is not part of the 10% also doesn't mean one doesn't benefit from Capitalism. One can be a small business owner making a decent or good living without being part of the 10%. Aside from my playing online poker I've also bought-and-sold items on eBay and Amazon since I was 18, and it's always been a nice secondary source of income. So, yeah, I've benefited from owning my own little business under Capitalism. The rest of your points I can agree that to varying degrees need to be fixed; taxation system, low minimum wage, welfare, and especially healthcare. I've seen our poor healthcare system bankrupt members of my family and it's a disgrace that a necessity like healthcare is still primarily run by for-profit businesses. Still, I don't think it's fair you paint American "suffering" with such a broad brush. There are plenty of places in the world where suffering is far more rampant under very different economic systems.
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Post by Lugh on Dec 7, 2019 13:03:13 GMT
I specifically picked that figure and intentionally left it vague in a general sense of 90% of the wealth being in the hands of 10% of the people in the capitalist system that is America.(no it is probably not an accurate statistic at any one time add your own if you wish as it merely makes the point) It was obviously an inverse statement making a connection between the vast majority of people who don't really benefit from a capitalist system, when they think that they do. I am thinking here in the inherently unfair and inequitable taxation system and other economic mechanisms such as low minimum wage, low welfare, expensive health care etc when I mention the majority who are either low income or middle class wage earners and the general myth of land of the free and place of opportunity for all that enslaves and hushes the masses. There's a lot of flaws with your thinking here. For one, just because one is not part of the 10% hardly means one is necessarily suffering. I--and I imagine most every American posting on this forum--am not part of that 10% and I'm most certainly not suffering. I don't even like the notion that having a lot of money necessarily means no suffering or vice versa; there are plenty of ways people suffer that have nothing to do with money. Second, just because one is not part of the 10% also doesn't mean one doesn't benefit from Capitalism. One can be a small business owner making a decent or good living without being part of the 10%. Aside from my playing online poker I've also bought-and-sold items on eBay and Amazon since I was 18, and it's always been a nice secondary source of income. So, yeah, I've benefited from owning my own little business under Capitalism. The rest of your points I can agree that to varying degrees need to be fixed; taxation system, low minimum wage, welfare, and especially healthcare. I've seen our poor healthcare system bankrupt members of my family and it's a disgrace that a necessity like healthcare is still primarily run by for-profit businesses. Still, I don't think it's fair you paint American "suffering" with such a broad brush. There are plenty of places in the world where suffering is far more rampant under very different economic systems. Congratulations you won the battle of semantics by taking what someone said 100% literally.
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Post by The Lost One on Dec 7, 2019 13:23:30 GMT
it is not the optimum use of resources that a well tempered free market can be. The free market can be very wasteful of resources. Think of the fossil fuel industry. It's too expensive for consumers to switch to more renewable energy sources for their home so they don't. It's more profitable for fossil fuel companies to keep providing fossil fuels than to switch to alternatives so that's what they do. The result is supplies of fossil fuels dwindle (pushing prices up) and the planet continues to be damaged by fossil fuel emissions and extraction. It would be better if there were a massive government project to kit homes with renewable energy systems via a combination of retrofitting and building new houses. Would completely interfere with the free market of course. Another problem with free market economics is that the less regulated the market, the more it suits those who already have a lot of capital (who can afford to drop prices against competitors then buy them out) - ending in oligoplisation of the economy which kills competition making the free market not very efficient at all. It also gives these oligarchs the influence over governments to protect their interests - free market capitalism naturally evolving into crony capitalism. And when applied to labour, the free market is disastrous. Forcing workers to compete with one another drives down wages. Companies competing with one another cut wages and job security to maximise profits. This means demand dwindles. How do capitalists get round this? Offering credit and making money off the debt. Then when the market becomes open to debt speculation, we end up with a massive debt bubble as profit seekers see a way to make easy money without having to actually produce anything. The bubble burst in 2008, but a new one has formed and will burst again. This is what happens with a free market and why its supposed efficiency is a myth.
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Post by amyghost on Dec 7, 2019 14:19:13 GMT
And there are a great number of powerful and profitable entities that will fight to keep America that way. Meanwhile over 90% of the American people suffer, many without even being aware that they are being screwed over. America proves the truth of Mark Twain's saying that people love the idea of Christianity, but most of them hate to see it put into practice. Gore Vidal once put it succinctly: Americans are like the ape who has been taught to draw--but the only thing he can produce are pictures of the bars of his cage, over and over. It is astonishing and saddening to see many of my countrymen reveal their real dog-in-the-manger attitude as regards socialism--they would rather see people suffer want and deprivation of basic necessities such as shelter and medical treatment, than to have to suffer the notion that even one penny of their tax money might go to some 'undeserving' who's conned the system. The older I get, the less surprise I have that a bastard like Trump is in office, and getting even the level of approval he is; he's simply tapped into something that's indestructibly selfish, narrow and mean in the national psyche, and many people in this nation love the fact that he's daily validating it.
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Post by amyghost on Dec 7, 2019 14:25:24 GMT
This is interesting because, I was not necessarily casting blame on well meaning individuals like yourself. IF I was in your system I would give to charity whilst bemoaning that my government and accepted social and political system was not doing a better job at wealth distribution and providing a safety net of welfare and health care for EVERY citizen. IMHO this is what differentiates America from the other Western nations who have managed more successfully to integrate socialist ideology and hence programmes into their capitalist social democratic systems. There are programs in place to help American citizens in need of assistance. The people who take advantage of the system are the ones preventing it from doing a better job.The title of this thread is a hard sell. I imagine Jesus Christ and Robin Hood would make strange bedfellows. Have a catastrophic illness, lose your job and income as my SO has, and try relying on that 'assistance' to keep from being out on the streets. Good luck to you, as you'll need a ton of it, and I hope you never find yourself in a place where you have to test out the efficacy of those systems. It isn't the people taking advantage of the system who are preventing it from doing a better job. it's inherent in the system itself that it works as poorly as it does. I've been there over this past long year, and trust me, I know. I didn't before, but I surely do now.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Dec 7, 2019 14:53:42 GMT
The older I get, the less surprise I have that a bastard like Trump is in office, and getting even the level of approval he is; he's simply tapped into something that's indestructibly selfish, narrow and mean in the national psyche, and many people in this nation love the fact that he's daily validating it. I think though the Democrats need to shoulder some of the blame there. Obama was elected after a campaign promising hope and change and didn't really deliver much. Then Clinton promised more of the same. Small wonder many preferred the guy offering to make America great again and providing some handy scapegoats (Muslims, Mexicans, transpeople, deadbeats, bleeding hearts) to blame for all their ills.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Dec 7, 2019 14:56:33 GMT
The older I get, the less surprise I have that a bastard like Trump is in office, and getting even the level of approval he is; he's simply tapped into something that's indestructibly selfish, narrow and mean in the national psyche, and many people in this nation love the fact that he's daily validating it. I think though the Democrats need to shoulder some of the blame there. Obama was elected after a campaign promising hope and change and didn't really deliver much. Then Clinton promised more of the same. Small wonder many preferred the guy offering to make America great again and providing some handy scapegoats (Muslims, Mexicans, transpeople, deadbeats, bleeding hearts) to blame for all their ills. They're making the same mistake with Biden, thankfully every time he opens his mouth he says something silly and goofy and goes down in the polls.
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