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Post by onethreetwo on Dec 7, 2019 6:34:10 GMT
Your thoughts?
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 7, 2019 12:57:59 GMT
I think I like him more as a visual-musical artist than just as a musician. His music isn't interesting enough for me to listen to on its own, but I've always enjoyed his performances/music videos. For that kind of "shock rock" as just music I prefer Alice Cooper and White/Rob Zombie.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Dec 7, 2019 13:58:41 GMT
I love Mechanical Animals and Antichrist Superstar is pretty good too. Need to listen to more of his albums.
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Post by petrolino on Dec 8, 2019 3:53:04 GMT
I loved them in the 1990s because my friends were punks and metalheads and all the clubs we frequented played Marilyn Manson's hits. The girls I knew had their favourite band member and all was good.
Still like them, just completely lost track of what they've been doing. The same with Rob Zombie post-White Zombie.
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Post by mslo79 on Dec 8, 2019 5:18:13 GMT
Trash/unstable.
that pretty much sums em up.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 8, 2019 12:09:07 GMT
Hardly. He's actually an extremely intelligent, well-spoken guy that just happens to really love horror films. It's where most of those shock rock guys get their aesthetic from.
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Post by mslo79 on Dec 9, 2019 6:35:25 GMT
Eva Yojimbo"extremely intelligent" but his act is not exactly what I would call good. in that regard he's more negative than positive to say the least.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 9, 2019 12:58:59 GMT
Eva Yojimbo "extremely intelligent" but his act is not exactly what I would call good. in that regard he's more negative than positive to say the least. His act is the musical equivalent of a horror film. Do you think all horror films are negative?
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Post by Zos on Dec 9, 2019 13:02:30 GMT
Holy Wood was a good listen, haven't been that impressed with anything else though.
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Dec 9, 2019 17:32:26 GMT
I’m kind of the opposite. I like some of his albums, they’re pretty solid within his genre. I don’t always care for the visuals, to me it reeks of effort. It’s the metal equivalent of Lady Gaga’s meat dress to me.
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Post by mslo79 on Dec 9, 2019 19:11:45 GMT
Eva YojimboI guess I see things a bit differently. sure, he might not be the worst person in the world or anything, as I am sure one could easily go lower, but I tend to see his overall act etc as definitely more negative than positive. but with many (who are at least bit messed up if you ask me)... it's like the weirder(/more disordered) you are the more people like you. I tend to be the opposite of that as I tend to prefer normal-ish over who can be the weirdest and the like. No, but I generally don't care for the genre as a whole as very few movies in the Horror genre are worth mentioning. so overall I see the genre as more negative than positive if you want to put it into these simple terms.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 10, 2019 13:29:27 GMT
Eva Yojimbo I guess I see things a bit differently. sure, he might not be the worst person in the world or anything, as I am sure one could easily go lower, but I tend to see his overall act etc as definitely more negative than positive. but with many (who are at least bit messed up if you ask me)... it's like the weirder(/more disordered) you are the more people like you. I tend to be the opposite of that as I tend to prefer normal-ish over who can be the weirdest and the like. No, but I generally don't care for the genre as a whole as very few movies in the Horror genre are worth mentioning. so overall I see the genre as more negative than positive if you want to put it into these simple terms. You can see it "differently" all you want, but it's a fact that Marilyn Manson (like Alice Cooper and Rob Zombie) were inspired by horror films. It's why Rob Zombie even went on to direct/make horror films. Considering billions of people enjoy horror films, I'd hardly classify all of them as "messed up." Plus, "negativity" is a part of reality, in that there's actually bad/dark stuff that happens, and ignoring it doesn't mean it isn't out there, and singing/writing about it isn't making more of it. If anything, it gives people who have problems an actual positive outlet for their feelings, which is probably why real-life violence has been on a steady decline for the last several hundred years. Also, your theory about "the weirder you are, the more people like you" is just... not correct in music. Marilyn Manson was popular, sure, but he was never as popular as the biggest "normal" pop stars out there. None of his albums would even crack the top 100 of the best selling of that decade.
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Post by mslo79 on Dec 11, 2019 1:00:22 GMT
Eva YojimboYeah, I am sure you got a legitimate point here and all as I pretty much agree with most of that. but I just tend to see acts like Marilyn Manson (and the like) as a bit disordered to say the least. not something I would consider good for people in general. or another way I tend to see things in terms of music... if I have to classify a music genre as closest to hell I would say Death Metal takes the cake (it's also the only music I can't stand as just the general sound of it is horrible) and the music closest to Heaven would be Classical. so I see those two genres of music as polar opposites as that Death Metal crap just screams negativity as I don't see how anyone can like it. I honestly think that stuff is bad for people to listen to as it does not help ones general peace etc but works against it which is why music like that is pretty much from hell if you ask me where as something like Classical on the other hand is much closest to heaven with a calming effect etc. also, about the negativity thing... it's not necessarily with what they are talking about, but just the overall act/sound etc, just gives off a negative feeling to where it would be best off avoided straight up as some types of music etc can't be good for people to watch/listen to straight up. p.s. but I suspect the 'violence declining for the last several hundred years' might not be entirely true as some areas I would assume violence has increased vs not all that long ago like school shootings and probably gang violence etc. but society as a whole is drifting further away from God lately vs not all that long ago which is not helping matters and will further increase these types of things since if someone rejects God, disorder tends to take over etc. In that regard, I agree. but I am just talking with certain areas like in Hollywood (and those types who are similar) you can see they do it on TV shows like America's Got Talent etc where they will overpraise someone if they are gay (and the like), or just weird etc, for example. but if someones act was the same but the person was straight(or did not act weird etc) they would not care as much and would not have overpraised it like they did. even the crowds there seems to react similarly. that's pretty much what I meant. so in this regard some people seem to be backwards and inline with my general comment.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Dec 11, 2019 1:10:16 GMT
Eva Yojimbo Yeah, I am sure you got a legitimate point here and all as I pretty much agree with most of that. but I just tend to see acts like Marilyn Manson (and the like) as a bit disordered to say the least. not something I would consider good for people in general. or another way I tend to see things in terms of music... if I have to classify a music genre as closest to hell I would say Death Metal takes the cake (it's also the only music I can't stand as just the general sound of it is horrible) and the music closest to Heaven would be Classical. so I see those two genres of music as polar opposites as that Death Metal crap just screams negativity as I don't see how anyone can like it. I honestly think that stuff is bad for people to listen to as it does not help ones general peace etc but works against it which is why music like that is pretty much from hell if you ask me where as something like Classical on the other hand is much closest to heaven with a calming effect etc. also, about the negativity thing... it's not necessarily with what they are talking about, but just the overall act/sound etc, just gives off a negative feeling to where it would be best off avoided straight up as some types of music etc can't be good for people to watch/listen to straight up. p.s. but I suspect the 'violence declining for the last several hundred years' might not be entirely true as some areas I would assume violence has increased vs not all that long ago like school shootings and probably gang violence etc. but society as a whole is drifting further away from God lately vs not all that long ago which is not helping matters and will further increase these types of things since if someone rejects God, disorder tends to take over etc. In that regard, I agree. but I am just talking with certain areas like in Hollywood (and those types who are similar) you can see they do it on TV shows like America's Got Talent etc where they will overpraise someone if they are gay (and the like), or just weird etc, for example. but if someones act was the same but the person was straight(or did not act weird etc) they would not care as much and would not have overpraised it like they did. even the crowds there seems to react similarly. that's pretty much what I meant. so in this regard some people seem to be backwards and inline with my general comment. "if I have to classify a music genre as closest to hell I would say Death Metal takes the cake (it's also the only music I can't stand as just the general sound of it is horrible)" I'm guessing you've never heard of black metal then, death metal is pretty tame in comparison. The original Nordic scene was infamous for Satanic imagery and church burnings: Death metal actually has a subgenre of Christian bands: www.thetoptens.com/christian-death-metal-bands/
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Post by Nicko's Nose on Dec 11, 2019 2:14:53 GMT
Eva Yojimbo Yeah, I am sure you got a legitimate point here and all as I pretty much agree with most of that. but I just tend to see acts like Marilyn Manson (and the like) as a bit disordered to say the least. not something I would consider good for people in general. or another way I tend to see things in terms of music... if I have to classify a music genre as closest to hell I would say Death Metal takes the cake (it's also the only music I can't stand as just the general sound of it is horrible) and the music closest to Heaven would be Classical. so I see those two genres of music as polar opposites as that Death Metal crap just screams negativity as I don't see how anyone can like it. I honestly think that stuff is bad for people to listen to as it does not help ones general peace etc but works against it which is why music like that is pretty much from hell if you ask me where as something like Classical on the other hand is much closest to heaven with a calming effect etc. also, about the negativity thing... it's not necessarily with what they are talking about, but just the overall act/sound etc, just gives off a negative feeling to where it would be best off avoided straight up as some types of music etc can't be good for people to watch/listen to straight up. p.s. but I suspect the 'violence declining for the last several hundred years' might not be entirely true as some areas I would assume violence has increased vs not all that long ago like school shootings and probably gang violence etc. but society as a whole is drifting further away from God lately vs not all that long ago which is not helping matters and will further increase these types of things since if someone rejects God, disorder tends to take over etc. In that regard, I agree. but I am just talking with certain areas like in Hollywood (and those types who are similar) you can see they do it on TV shows like America's Got Talent etc where they will overpraise someone if they are gay (and the like), or just weird etc, for example. but if someones act was the same but the person was straight(or did not act weird etc) they would not care as much and would not have overpraised it like they did. even the crowds there seems to react similarly. that's pretty much what I meant. so in this regard some people seem to be backwards and inline with my general comment. "if I have to classify a music genre as closest to hell I would say Death Metal takes the cake (it's also the only music I can't stand as just the general sound of it is horrible)" I'm guessing you've never heard of black metal then, death metal is pretty tame in comparison. The original Nordic scene was infamous for Satanic imagery and church burnings: Death metal actually has a subgenre of Christian bands: www.thetoptens.com/christian-death-metal-bands/ Christian black metal is a thing too.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 11, 2019 13:28:34 GMT
Eva Yojimbo Yeah, I am sure you got a legitimate point here and all as I pretty much agree with most of that. but I just tend to see acts like Marilyn Manson (and the like) as a bit disordered to say the least. not something I would consider good for people in general. or another way I tend to see things in terms of music... if I have to classify a music genre as closest to hell I would say Death Metal takes the cake (it's also the only music I can't stand as just the general sound of it is horrible) and the music closest to Heaven would be Classical. so I see those two genres of music as polar opposites as that Death Metal crap just screams negativity as I don't see how anyone can like it. I honestly think that stuff is bad for people to listen to as it does not help ones general peace etc but works against it which is why music like that is pretty much from hell if you ask me where as something like Classical on the other hand is much closest to heaven with a calming effect etc. also, about the negativity thing... it's not necessarily with what they are talking about, but just the overall act/sound etc, just gives off a negative feeling to where it would be best off avoided straight up as some types of music etc can't be good for people to watch/listen to straight up. p.s. but I suspect the 'violence declining for the last several hundred years' might not be entirely true as some areas I would assume violence has increased vs not all that long ago like school shootings and probably gang violence etc. but society as a whole is drifting further away from God lately vs not all that long ago which is not helping matters and will further increase these types of things since if someone rejects God, disorder tends to take over etc. In that regard, I agree. but I am just talking with certain areas like in Hollywood (and those types who are similar) you can see they do it on TV shows like America's Got Talent etc where they will overpraise someone if they are gay (and the like), or just weird etc, for example. but if someones act was the same but the person was straight(or did not act weird etc) they would not care as much and would not have overpraised it like they did. even the crowds there seems to react similarly. that's pretty much what I meant. so in this regard some people seem to be backwards and inline with my general comment. So you agree with most of what I said, but you still think Marilyn Manson is "disordered" because he likes horror films. OK... You've said that about death metal before and I've corrected you before. Death Metal is also a genre that started out being obsessed with horror films but evolved far beyond that, and today there are death metal bands that write about all kinds of things. Even one of the original death metal bands like Death evolved to writing lyrics like this: www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/death/symbolic.html Musically, death metal bands are even capable of writing stuff of great beauty like this: If you were going to choose a metal genre as "closest to hell," then that would be Norwegian Black Metal that had bands that were literally satanists, some of which burned down churches, committed acts of murder, cannibalism, and all other kinds of gruesome stuff. Likewise, if you think all classical is peaceful and heavenly, you haven't heard much classical! Especially in the last 100-or-so years composers have loved experimenting with darkness and dissonance, even to a much greater extreme than metal ever has. Even Norwegian Black Metal has nothing on a classical piece like this: And that might even be considered "light" as far as modern classical music goes! Anyway, I can directly testify to the fact that all music--including death and black metal--helps my "peace." I'm a music lover first and foremost so I listen to most all genres, but metal is one of my favorites for several reasons, one being that it's my favorite to play on guitar, and two being that, in general, metal is probably the most musically adventurous/sophisticated popular music genre out there (I say "popular music" in contrast with jazz, classical, and world music). Metal is pretty much the only popular music genre where I can still find new bands/music and not understand what they're doing from a music theory standpoint, whether rhythmically or harmonically or structurally. Most all other pop music--some prog excepted--is much more predictable/formulaic by comparison. The difference between us is you associate music with silly things like "heaven" and "hell" and, to me, music is just music. It's abstract, not representational. Even when it's trying to evoke certain moods it can simply be an outlet for those feelings, rather than evoking those feelings in a listener. When I say "violence has decreased" I'm talking overall. If you're interested, Steven Pinker wrote a fascinating book about this full of statistics proving this very fact: www.amazon.com/Better-Angels-Our-Nature-Violence/dp/0143122010 He also gives a good talk/summary of it here: Also, your theory about people "drifting away from God" and being more violence is also directly contra to statistics as the most peaceful countries tend to be the most secular and the most violent are the most religious: www.patheos.com/blogs/epiphenom/2009/06/atheist-nations-are-more-peaceful.html There's tons of data and statistics out there that support this, if you care to actually look/read it. As far as being liked because you're weird in Hollywood... I'm sorry, which of the biggest current Hollywood stars would you call "weird?" Tom Hanks? Tom Cruise? Leonardo DiCaprio? Meryl Streep? Jennifer Lawrence? Emma Stone? If we're talking music stars: Taylor Swift? Beyonce? Drake? Justin Bieber? I don't watch America's Got Talent so I can't comment on that, but I hardly think that show is representative of what types of people are most successful in Hollywood, or anywhere else. And... I'm sorry, but are you suggesting that being gay is enough to qualify someone as "weird" when 5% of the population is gay?
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Post by sjg on Dec 11, 2019 13:59:05 GMT
I think i've heard all his albums and was really into his earlier stuff and still listen to half a dozen or so tracks from the first half of his career every now and again these days.
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Post by jonesjxd on Feb 3, 2020 3:51:47 GMT
Comparing him to his peers of his era he isn't the musical maestro that is Trent Reznor, he doesn't have the lyrical genius of Maynard James Keenan and he doesn't have the PT Barnum level of spectacle of Rob Zombie, but he is well rounded enough to touch all of their strengths and none of their shortcomings. Over the years I've felt NIN's music has gotten so advanced that its indecipherable, Maynard has so much mystique that it gets annoying, and Rob Zombie is so about the show that his music just get sillier and sillier-- meanwhile Manson has evolved over the years, gone through musical phases, has had ups and downs but has maintained what was always great about him to begin with, he's a fascinating artist that has accumulated a really impressive catalogue of albums filled with really good heavy metal anthems that feel authentic, necessary, and that are just hokey enough not to delve headfirst into pretentiousness. He's earned his status in rock and roll history if you ask me.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Feb 3, 2020 4:18:12 GMT
Comparing him to his peers of his era he isn't the musical maestro that is Trent Reznor, he doesn't have the lyrical genius of Maynard James Keenan and he doesn't have the PT Barnum level of spectacle of Rob Zombie, but he is well rounded enough to touch all of their strengths and none of their shortcomings. Over the years I've felt NIN's music has gotten so advanced that its indecipherable, Maynard has so much mystique that it gets annoying, and Rob Zombie is so about the show that his music just get sillier and sillier-- meanwhile Manson has evolved over the years, gone through musical phases, has had ups and downs but has maintained what was always great about him to begin with, he's a fascinating artist that has accumulated a really impressive catalogue of albums filled with really good heavy metal anthems that feel authentic, necessary, and that are just hokey enough not to delve headfirst into pretentiousness. He's earned his status in rock and roll history if you ask me. Eh, I don't think Manson is qualified to hold the jock straps of Reznor or Maynard, both among the few popular music artists whom one could say have made genuinely profound art. Manson is closer to Rob Zombie, but I just like Zombie's aesthetic and, on the whole, his music better as well. Granted, I haven't heard much of Manson's recent music, but his old stuff was always extremely basic/standard industrial metal. Zombie was far more interesting in what he did with that genre early on (though a significant step below Reznor), and Tool practically invented their own genre, however much they started out as alternative rock/metal.
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Post by jonesjxd on Feb 3, 2020 13:10:28 GMT
Comparing him to his peers of his era he isn't the musical maestro that is Trent Reznor, he doesn't have the lyrical genius of Maynard James Keenan and he doesn't have the PT Barnum level of spectacle of Rob Zombie, but he is well rounded enough to touch all of their strengths and none of their shortcomings. Over the years I've felt NIN's music has gotten so advanced that its indecipherable, Maynard has so much mystique that it gets annoying, and Rob Zombie is so about the show that his music just get sillier and sillier-- meanwhile Manson has evolved over the years, gone through musical phases, has had ups and downs but has maintained what was always great about him to begin with, he's a fascinating artist that has accumulated a really impressive catalogue of albums filled with really good heavy metal anthems that feel authentic, necessary, and that are just hokey enough not to delve headfirst into pretentiousness. He's earned his status in rock and roll history if you ask me. Eh, I don't think Manson is qualified to hold the jock straps of Reznor or Maynard, both among the few popular music artists whom one could say have made genuinely profound art. Manson is closer to Rob Zombie, but I just like Zombie's aesthetic and, on the whole, his music better as well. Granted, I haven't heard much of Manson's recent music, but his old stuff was always extremely basic/standard industrial metal. Zombie was far more interesting in what he did with that genre early on (though a significant step below Reznor), and Tool practically invented their own genre, however much they started out as alternative rock/metal. I think if you're going to solicit your opinions you should be knowledgeable on the subject. I mentioned these artists because I'm very knowledgeable on all of their work. Manson has actually ventured into a lot of different musical directions over the course of his career, and his recent output since recruiting movie composer Tyler Bates as a co-writer has been really interesting and has gone in a far more alternative rock direction than the industrial nu-metal hits you may be familiar with. You should give his new stuff a try.
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